Is genocide a better descriptor?
Or ethnic cleansing?
All, including holocaust, amount to the same thing no?
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Or ethnic cleansing?
All, including holocaust, amount to the same thing no?
Do you think more people need to die, or another adjustment of tactics before it is worthy?
Just saw in news 1y baby in hospital who lost his mother. It shocked me. Looking at my baby playing around me and then looking that poor kid...... You don't launch rockets on civilians ffs!!! Disgusting from Israel. That is war crime.
I see apartheid referred to a lot...is it really apartheid if Israel and Palestine are separate entities?
I would say that Israel would have deliberately try to kill as many people in Palestine as possible before you could even start throwing around a word like a holocaust. There is a reason people just don't throw it around. Otherwise we'd be talking about numerous holocausts all the time. It seems the only reason why some people here want to use that word is because it's link to The Holocaust and they feel very smart in saying that the jews of Israel have now become the Nazis.
But that baby could've grown up to become a terrorist so Israel were just defending themselves. Or something.
Ok so the number of deaths would need to increase before you're comfortable, got it.
The reason it isn't used often is because acts like the current genocide of the Palestinians don't happen often. And also it has since been used in the same way as "9/11" ... It became single event orientated, rather than its original use.
Just because Israel have better PR and leadership buy-in, doesn't make it any better.
You can throw the word around as much as you'd like, I've just never seen any adults do it.
Either the Israeli military is severely incompetent or they are actively targeting civilians.
This needs an intervention from the US/UK or NATO.
This needs an intervention from the US/UK or NATO.
I've honestly just understood holocaust as genocide.
The definition of holocaust and it's Jewish origins, as in the Hebrew and Yiddish meanings or words it's derived from and your argument earlier about numbers would make the word more apt imo with the Palestinians. Simply because I don't think the meanings are discussed in terms of numbers killed but are more translated as "catstrophe" and "destruction"
It's amazing what you find out when reading or researching a topic or current event.
For example I only just learned that Napoleon had offered Palestine as a Jewish homeland in 1799.
For example I only just learned that Napoleon had offered Palestine as a Jewish homeland in 1799.
I don't know how world allow this. Without going in who is right or wrong in this conflict bombing civilians is a war crime. Israel must be punished for this. Absolute disgrace.
I can't get that poor baby crying out of my head.
Is there any particular reason why you want to use the word holocaust rather then the words we more commonly use?
so because they do it slower than the Nazi, then it make all the difference? Alright
The leafleting isn't a new tactic.
In the case of the village of Saliha the Israeli army leafleted the area to say if people surrendered they would be spared. The people did and were surrounded be tanks and the Israelis opened fire.
As I suggested earlier for some of us it maybe just a language thing. Others maybe as you suggested.
For me personally I haven't used the word to my recollection, however the similarities to Nazi Germany and apartheid south Africa are frightening
two of them are peer reviewed academic research. A bunch of others have direct quotes and evidence. Do you think the upenn paper is trash?I’ve looked through a bunch of those and for the most part it’s poor-informed wishful thinking, I’m sorry. I can do the same for Palestine, I can do the same for Muslims in general based on his backing, financial & political, of Caucasian republics etc. Using Berl Lazar & other officials in order to show the political divide in Russian Jewish society
Or maybe comparisons to Nazis are just uncalled for. It's like WW2 is the only part of history anyone is able to use a reference point these days.
I didn't even know there was a Jewish insurgency against the British during the 1930s and 40s. So much history in this region.
It isn’t about being smart. It is calling a spade a spade and the two events are directly linked. The holocaust is more relevant to this scenario because the victims of that event are some of the perpetrators in this. Only difference is that Israel has better PR and backing by western powers who are happy to turn a blind eye and they are smart enough to do it at a snails pace so as to avoid too much criticism or intervention. End goal is the same.
An intervention? From the U.K? How would that work.
Not sure I agree with you on this one. Obviously my opinion based on what I think and not based on some comments where it maybe as you say.
I think it's only natural, to a degree, to question some of Israel's actions considering what is often used as annevent that lead to it's creation. Note here I don't think it is as easy as WW2 being the reason when you look at Napoleon's offer in 1799 and Balfour being done in 1917.
I have an example of the Saliha incident above. Where some say around 70 people were shot dead as they surrendered according to Israel's demands. Being of South Asian descent I have heard/read of incidents under the British raaj where the Brits opened fire on civilians in similar if not same circumstances. To highlight this is fair enough imo.
The feck is this shit? A country that can wipe out all Palestinians in a space of a few days, kill a hundreds or so by bobbing Hamasi terrorists who throw rockets at times, and suddenly it is a Holocaust?
If that is the case, then what is the terminology for what Turkey on Kurds, Iraqi/Syria in other Iraqi/Syrians and so on are doing?
The only relation with Holocaust is that in both cases there are Jews involved but the relation ends there.
What are you smoking?
Its fecking shocking. I’m literally wordless at some of this.
Acknowledging and even condemning certain incidents as they happen would be a start.
We can go back and forth with the Hamas arguments and I've no love for Hamas believe me. However in this particular case the instigator and provocation was clearly Israel and it's attacks on worshippers during Ramadhan. Yet the narrative is "but but Hamas..." From politicians and media.
I personally think a lot can be achieved by calling it as it happens. If the UK and USA called it as it happens I see a different Israeli approach, simply from words.
I'm a 37 year old Muslim and have known about the Palestine-Israel conflict since my teenage years. I've been angry at what's going on there for years but things hit different now that I have a 3 year old kid. I have a newfound sense of despair everytime I think about the children being bombed and terrorized. I can't imagine what all those Palestinian fathers are feeling. I can't begin to imagine the rage I'd feel if it was my baby getting bombed.
I don't know what you see or hear but I've certainly seen and heard holocaust being used for the Uighars, for example and that doesn't involve Jews
Why it's uncalled for? The end game is the same. It's clear from the current Israel govt actions that it's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.
Calling it less than what it is helps in trivializing their suffering.
Would it be called a holocaust if Israel end up wiping out the entire Palesstine population in a few years or decades and the count of civilian casualties due to Israeli military attacks is in millions? That's what their belief wants and what their end goal is.
Comparison to Nazi holocaust is unnecessary but as long as you agree that the definition of a holocaust is indiscriminate killing of a large number of innocent civilians based on their race or religion then it pretty much is what is happening here. Innocent men women and children are getting massacred and evaporated on a daily basis with the military having zero interest in preserving Palestinian lives.
100% this.
I think the advent of social media is a big issue on how people see the conflict.
In the past the suffering has only been through word of mouth and the media being selective how they portray the incidents that occur. So narratives like "Hamas rockets" have impacted on people's views and stance.
Now however, although the media continue with their selective narrative, people see the devastation as it happens via social media on their phones, laptop etc and imo the view is changing somewhat on who the perpetrator actually is.
The Holocaust/Nazi analogy is not meant as a serious, good faith historical comparison by those who make it. There’s no amount of detail or statistics, historical context, or alternative analogies that will convince its proponents to stop using it, since it has little or nothing to do with a genuine attempt to understand what’s going on.
Rather, it’s an attempt to appropriate the moral legitimacy they believe Israel has derived from the Holocaust and confer it on to the Palestinians, re-cast now not only as victims of Zionism, but also of the Nazis and their greatest crime. In doing so, they diminish the exceptional nature of the Holocaust and the pity that its Jewish victims (who had nothing to do with Israel’s crimes) might be expected to receive. That many do this unwittingly - in contrast to those who are just blatantly attempting to troll Jews - does not negate its impact in this. Nor does the fact many some Jews themselves often invoke the analogy.
Rather, it’s an attempt to appropriate the moral legitimacy they believe Israel has derived from the Holocaust and confer it on to the Palestinians, re-cast now not only as victims of Zionism, but also of the Nazis and their greatest crime. In doing so, they diminish the exceptional nature of the Holocaust and the pity that its Jewish victims (who had nothing to do with Israel’s crimes) might be expected to receive. That many do this unwittingly - in contrast to those who are just blatantly attempting to troll Jews - does not negate its impact in this. Nor does the fact many some Jews themselves often invoke the analogy.
While I agree with your general point, let's not put words in their mouth they clearly neither said nor meant.
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It's about dilluting the meaning of words if they are cast around without care or understanding. It's not about the palestenians lives mattering more or less, it's about avoiding hyperbole. Otherwise every single campaign of bombing in human history is a now a holocaust and there are far more indiscriminate bombings in human history and recent human history than what Israel is doing and has done.
On the scale you are talking about, this sounds a lot like fascism.
I doubt Fearless is being paid. He was debating the issue since before I joined, and he has been consistent in his views and arguments. I think that he doesn't engage in depth now because he has done so many many times in the past.
That is where we differ pretty much. You seem to compare this event to legitimate wars between two militaries where civilians died as a result of the two engaging while it is actually an overpowered military state systematically attacking, oppressing and massacring a group of defenseless innocent civilians based on their race/religion/belief. Hence the other example being that of the Uyghurs.
I think you’re over analysing this when it’s far simpler than what you’re making out.
We’re seeing the Palestinian people being murdered en masse and over a protracted period where the aggressors are the IDF/Israelis.
The reason people use the word genocide, ethnic cleansing etc is fairly obvious. The reason the word holocaust is also used is fairly obvious.
This doesn’t diminish at all from what the Jews went through in WW2 or their pity who have nothing to do with the present day situation.
However, there is a certain question to be asked on how a group who endured one of the greatest tragedies in modern history can be so bereft of empathy and morality when it comes to the Palestinians. That’s the key takeaway. Not the use of the word itself.