Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Fewer Tweets, More Discussion

The Corinthian

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I just want Jewish/Arab/Palestinian/Israeli to live side by side and in peace. Until both sides accept the other has a right to be there there will never be peace.
This is somewhat problematic for me. What right do/did Israelis (Zionists) have to be there back in 1947? Everything we're seeing is the remnants of mistakes made in the past. The land wasn't theirs and it seems they now have more right than the people that were already there (of which there were Jews as well).

Just to clarify - the discussion of rights to be there is problematic.
 

rotherham_red

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This is somewhat problematic for me. What right do/did Israelis (Zionists) have to be there back in 1947? Everything we're seeing is the remnants of mistakes made in the past. The land wasn't theirs and it seems they now have more right than the people that were already there (of which there were Jews as well).

Just to clarify - the discussion of rights to be there is problematic.
Agreed. If there isn't a right of return for the 1948 and 1967 refugees then there will never be peace unfortunately. That was a historic injustice on a scale that has seldom been seen since.
 

Fredo

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I just want Jewish/Arab/Palestinian/Israeli to live side by side and in peace. Until both sides accept the other has a right to be there there will never be peace.
One way would be to remove israeli and palestinian authorities completely, combine both countries into one and have a ruling similar to the one in Andorra, have Europe govern them and ensure human rights are applicable everywhere and prosecute Hamas and Pro-Zionists and either apply the death penalty or exile them.
 

The Corinthian

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I just want Jewish/Arab/Palestinian/Israeli to live side by side and in peace. Until both sides accept the other has a right to be there there will never be peace.
This is somewhat problematic for me. What right do/did Israelis (Zionists) have to be there back in 1947? Everything we're seeing is the remnants of mistakes made in the past. The land wasn't theirs and it seems they now have more right than the people that were already there (of which there were Jews as well).

Just to clarify - the discussion of rights to be there is problematic.
Sorry - I just wanted to add to my own post.

Do you believe a Jewish individual born and raised in the USA has a greater right to be there than a Palestinian refugee in Jordan?
 

JPRouve

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Your term 'curated' is more accurate. I've no doubt some people in Israel hold those vile views.

Though I'd be loathe to use a source who thinks the US and Israel did 9/11, defended Chavez and Putin, and generally writes propoganda for whoever pays.
My point was about extremist narrative which is why I said that it didn't paint the full the picture. It's important to see how extremists see things because in that particular conflict they are the ones in charge and fueling the conflict on both sides.
 

VidaRed

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जिसकी लाठी उस्की भैस

Indian proverb that captures the current situation. It says whoever wields the stick owns the buffalo, rights be damned.
 

The Corinthian

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The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. President of the Supreme Muslim Council. Founder of the World Islamic Congress

A man of such insignificance that was Hitler's buddy.

You're mad.
Don't forget, he was also of Admin of his Whatsapp group at the time too.
 

Fearless

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This is somewhat problematic for me. What right do/did Israelis (Zionists) have to be there back in 1947? Everything we're seeing is the remnants of mistakes made in the past. The land wasn't theirs and it seems they now have more right than the people that were already there (of which there were Jews as well).

Just to clarify - the discussion of rights to be there is problematic.
The land was part of the Ottoman Empire, NEVER 'Palestinian'.

1. The San Remo resolution of April 1920 recognized the Jewish rights to Palestine enshrined in the Balfour Declaration.
2. The unanimous vote in July 1922 by all members of the League of Nations endorsed the San Remo resolution.
3. Article 80 of the United Nations Charter safeguards the resolution of the League of Nations.

The above firmly established in international law the rights of Jews to settle west of the River Jordan, and the rights of Arabs to settle east of the river
 

Carolina Red

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The land was part of the Ottoman Empire, NEVER 'Palestinian'.

1. The San Remo resolution of April 1920 recognized the Jewish rights to Palestine enshrined in the Balfour Declaration.
2. The unanimous vote in July 1922 by all members of the League of Nations endorsed the San Remo resolution.
3. Article 80 of the United Nations Charter safeguards the resolution of the League of Nations.

The above firmly established in international law the rights of Jews to settle west of the River Jordan, and the rights of Arabs to settle east of the river
Cool. Now do what the UN says about all those “settlements” Israel keeps making.
 

Fearless

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Cool. Now do what the UN says about all those “settlements” Israel keeps making.
Those damn San Remo accords.....

The “occupied territory of the West Bank” is not occupied. In 1948 israel was confirmed as a national entity by the U.N. with Judea and Samaria (West Bank) as part of this sovereign state based on an international agreement signed by the government of Turkey and recorded in the Treaty of Lausanne which legalized the San Remo Accords.

They are still applicable today by dint of Article 80 of the United Nations Charter.
 

africanspur

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Why do you guys even engage with someone who openly espouses islamophobic and/or racist views and calls for ethnic cleansing?

In a thread full of foolish posts from every angle, theirs stand out.
 

berbatrick

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I just want Jewish/Arab/Palestinian/Israeli to live side by side and in peace. Until both sides accept the other has a right to be there there will never be peace.
From 1923, I believe he has been 100% vindicated in his political analysis, perhaps because he was less racist than contemporary Europeans:

Compromisers in our midst attempt to convince us that the Arabs are some kind of fools who can be tricked by a softened formulation of our goals, or a tribe of money grubbers who will abandon their birth right to Palestine for cultural and economic gains. I flatly reject this assessment of the Palestinian Arabs. Culturally they are 500 years behind us, spiritually they do not have our endurance or our strength of will, but this exhausts all of the internal differences. We can talk as much as we want about our good intentions; but they understand as well as we what is not good for them. They look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon his Mexico or any Sioux looked upon his prairie. To think that the Arabs will voluntarily consent to the realization of Zionism in return for the cultural and economic benefits we can bestow on them is infantile. This childish fantasy of our “Arabo-philes” comes from some kind of contempt for the Arab people, of some kind of unfounded view of this race as a rabble ready to be bribed in order to sell out their homeland for a railroad network.

[...]

those who hold that an agreement with the natives is an essential condition for Zionism can now say “no” and depart from Zionism. Zionist colonization, even the most restricted, must either be terminated or carried out in defiance of the will of the native population. This colonization can, therefore, continue and develop only under the protection of a force independent of the local population – an iron wall which the native population cannot break through. This is, in toto, our policy towards the Arabs. To formulate it any other way would only be hypocrisy.

Not only must this be so, it is so whether we admit it or not. What does the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate mean for us? It is the fact that a disinterested power committed itself to create such security conditions that the local population would be deterred from interfering with our efforts.

All of us, without exception, are constantly demanding that this power strictly fulfill its obligations. In this sense, there are no meaningful differences between our “militarists” and our “vegetarians.” One prefers an iron wall of Jewish bayonets, the other proposes an iron wall of British bayonets, the third proposes an agreement with Baghdad, and appears to be satisfied with Baghdad’s bayonets – a strange and somewhat risky taste’ but we all applaud, day and night, the iron wall. We would destroy our cause if we proclaimed the necessity of an agreement, and fill the minds of the Mandatory with the belief that we do not need an iron wall, but rather endless talks. Such a proclamation can only harm us. Therefore it is our sacred duty to expose such talk and prove that it is a snare and a delusion.

Two brief remarks: In the first place, if anyone objects that this point of view is immoral, I answer: It is not true; either Zionism is moral and just or it is immoral and unjust. But that is a question that we should have settled before we became Zionists. Actually we have settled that question, and in the affirmative.

We hold that Zionism is moral and just. And since it is moral and just, justice must be done, no matter whether Joseph or Simon or Ivan or Achmet agree with it or not.

There is no other morality.

All this does not mean that any kind of agreement is impossible, only a voluntary agreement is impossible. As long as there is a spark of hope that they can get rid of us, they will not sell these hopes, not for any kind of sweet words or tasty morsels, because they are not a rabble but a nation, perhaps somewhat tattered, but still living. A living people makes such enormous concessions on such fateful questions only when there is no hope left. Only when not a single breach is visible in the iron wall, only then do extreme groups lose their sway, and influence transfers to moderate groups.
The part relevant to your question is the last paragraph. I included the rest since his reasoning builds up to it.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/ironwall.html

It's a nice contrast with both the naive and racist attitude here:

Shall we choose Palestine or Argentine? We shall take what is given us, and what is selected by Jewish public opinion. The Society will determine both these points.

Argentine is one of the most fertile countries in the world, extends over a vast area, has a sparse population and a mild climate. The Argentine Republic would derive considerable profit from the cession of a portion of its territory to us. The present infiltration of Jews has certainly produced some discontent, and it would be necessary to enlighten the Republic on the intrinsic difference of our new movement.

Palestine is our ever-memorable historic home. The very name of Palestine would attract our people with a force of marvelous potency. If His Majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine, we could in return undertake to regulate the whole finances of Turkey. We should there form a portion of a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism. We should as a neutral State remain in contact with all Europe, which would have to guarantee our existence. The sanctuaries of Christendom would be safeguarded by assigning to them an extra-territorial status such as is well-known to the law of nations. We should form a guard of honor about these sanctuaries, answering for the fulfillment of this duty with our existence. This guard of honor would be the great symbol of the solution of the Jewish question after eighteen centuries of Jewish suffering.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-jewish-state-quot-theodor-herzl
 
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Fearless

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Why do you guys even engage with someone who openly espouses islamophobic and/or racist views and calls for ethnic cleansing?

In a thread full of foolish posts from every angle, theirs stand out.
Perhaps some posters believe there are two sides to the story and their curiosity goes beyond silly accusations.
 

VidaRed

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???

Just tell me who was there at the time?

Who paid taxes on the land? Who cultivated the land? Who built up the infrastructure? Who owned property?

Can you answer that for me please?
Palestinians don't exist and never existed. The people claiming to be palestinians in gaza and west bank today are actually jordanians.

There ive answered it. (/sarcasm)
 
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snk123

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Pro-Palestinian rally in Paris banned amid rising Israel-Gaza tensions

The Paris police prefecture on Thursday issued an order banning a Palestinian solidarity demonstration planned for Saturday in the French capital as weekend pro-Palestinian rallies were being planned across the world following Israel’s latest deadly offensive on the Gaza Strip.

https://www.france24.com/en/france/...s-banned-amid-escalating-israel-gaza-tensions


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This from the bastions of freedom of speech and expression. The hypocrisy of the west is astonishing. How will they lecture on human rights after this? Are we all that forgetful?
 

balaks

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Palestinians don't exist and never existed. The people claiming to be palestinians in gaza and west bank today are actually jordanians.

There ive answered it.
Way to just wipe people's identities away in an instant.
 

Fearless

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Pro-Palestinian rally in Paris banned amid rising Israel-Gaza tensions

The Paris police prefecture on Thursday issued an order banning a Palestinian solidarity demonstration planned for Saturday in the French capital as weekend pro-Palestinian rallies were being planned across the world following Israel’s latest deadly offensive on the Gaza Strip.

https://www.france24.com/en/france/...s-banned-amid-escalating-israel-gaza-tensions


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This from the bastions of freedom of speech and expression. The hypocrisy of the west is astonishing. How will they lecture on human rights after this? Are we all that forgetful?
I raise you this...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-accused-of-killing-jewish-woman-avoids-trial
 

rotherham_red

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The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. President of the Supreme Muslim Council. Founder of the World Islamic Congress

A man of such insignificance that was Hitler's buddy.

You're mad.
You don't know your Islamic politics, clearly. Islam (particularly Sunni Islam, which the Grand Mufti belonged to) doesn't have a centralised clergy like the Shias, or the Catholics. Back then, as it is now, Muslims held the Qur'an and the Sunnah as the primary influences on their religious etiquette and their lives. It's why you don't hear much from the imams of the Haramain in Makkah and Madinah, or indeed, the current imam of Al Aqsa. The closest thing to an authority would be Al-Azhar, but they only publish opinions rather than edicts and most Muslims don't really know of them or take them into account.

So I say again, the influence he held was minimal at best, and more often than not was pretty much negligible.

Now, if the Caliphs were around and said something like this, you might have had a point.
 

JPRouve

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Pro-Palestinian rally in Paris banned amid rising Israel-Gaza tensions

The Paris police prefecture on Thursday issued an order banning a Palestinian solidarity demonstration planned for Saturday in the French capital as weekend pro-Palestinian rallies were being planned across the world following Israel’s latest deadly offensive on the Gaza Strip.

https://www.france24.com/en/france/...s-banned-amid-escalating-israel-gaza-tensions


-----

This from the bastions of freedom of speech and expression. The hypocrisy of the west is astonishing. How will they lecture on human rights after this? Are we all that forgetful?
Why do you guys have high expectations from France? You should always expect something bad or poorly thought.
 

Fearless

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You don't know your Islamic politics, clearly. Islam (particularly Sunni Islam, which the Grand Mufti belonged to) doesn't have a centralised clergy like the Shias, or the Catholics. Back then, as it is now, Muslims held the Qur'an and the Sunnah as the primary influences on their religious etiquette and their lives. It's why you don't hear much from the imams of the Haramain in Makkah and Madinah, or indeed, the current imam of Al Aqsa. The closest thing to an authority would be Al-Azhar, but they only publish opinions rather than edicts and most Muslims don't really know of them or take them into account.

So I say again, the influence he held was minimal at best, and more often than not was pretty much negligible.

Now, if the Caliphs were around and said something like this, you might have had a point.
Thanks for that, but there's no denying that Al-Husseini wielded the greatest power and influence amongst his co-religionists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini
 

shamans

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Raoul

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What is even the point of this debate? Discuss what is happening right now. Talking about past -- why ? Are you trying to justify the savage IDF ?
For the same reasons people always bring up history - to frame the origins of the conflict in a way that suits their present day narrative, then use the ensuing moral leverage against the other side. Trouble is, it never works since both sides have their own version of history.