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Paxi

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No sane commander would send troops into an urban area of any size without prepping the area first through artillery strikes. That would be from towed systems which offer very little accuracy, thus the artillery campaign would be longer & more indiscriminate. No one is saying that the campaign would continue once troops are in the city.

Describe for me an urban area like Gaza in Afghanistan or Iraq (outside certain parts of Baghdad). The environments were about as different from Gaza as could possibly be.

This wouldn’t be a video game. The practicalities of urban combat are much, much different.
Yes, air strikers or artillery would usually happen and then shock troops would follow. Where are these troops?
And the last part? really? A video game?:houllier:
 

calodo2003

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calodo2003

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And realistically how many intelligence officers are they killing or neutralizing in these attacks like the tv station building, where they give them a 20 min heads up? Wouldn't hypothetical hamas officers just pack their tech and leave like everyone else?

No one has convinced me so far that this isn't more than an exercises of collective punishment against the population of gaza. In other words, a war crime.
It’s more infrastructure degradation than assassinations. Destroy the C/C locations, you restrict communications & the ability to strategize.
 

calodo2003

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Mate, if you have boots on the ground, then you wouldn’t just bomb stuff. Troops on the ground only do that, whoever they’re in the absolute shit. Danger close stuff. I don’t expect Israel to fire air to surface missiles. Like I can’t believe I’m having to say this but why in the hell didn't just NATO bomb every compound in Afghan? Or likewise in Iraq. Boots on the ground win wars and battles — it is known.
NATO effectively ended the Kosovo War through an air campaign.
 

Paxi

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Israel doesn’t see inserting ground troops as a viable move, either militarily or politically...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

We are just seeing their avowed doctrine at play.
No doubt much more versed in military tactics than me. Nevertheless, doesn't sit right with me, if you've a legit threat, then go in and destroy it. Instead of bombing the feck out of it and just, well, nothing.
 

Paxi

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NATO effectively ended the Kosovo War through an air campaign.
It still had presence of friendlies for NATO. At all times. Would have looked pretty daft if NATO ended up blowing up their own allies.
 

calodo2003

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No doubt much more versed in military tactics than me. Nevertheless, doesn't sit right with me, if you've a legit threat, then go in and destroy it. Instead of bombing the feck out of it and just, well, nothing.
It’s a brutal tactic on a helpless city. I’m not condoning it in the slightest, just pointing out the realities of it.

It would be glorious tomorrow I wake up & all the shit is over.
 

Paxi

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It’s a brutal tactic on a helpless city. I’m not condoning it in the slightest, just pointing out the realities of it.

It would be glorious tomorrow I wake up & all the shit is over.


It would be. It's just horrible though. Not just in the Middle East. Ukraine. Syria. Absolutely horrendous that this is happening.
 

Raoul

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How are they able to target leaders if they pass down leaflets?
They obviously wouldn't do that in situations where they are relying on the element of surprise. The leaflets are only for civilians to leave buildings they are going after.
 

berbatrick

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Theodor Herzl:

Palestine is our ever-memorable historic home. The very name of Palestine would attract our people with a force of marvelous potency. If His Majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine, we could in return undertake to regulate the whole finances of Turkey. We should there form a portion of a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism. /QUOTE]
Europeans, successfully exporting civilisation since the 17th C.
 

harms

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It can state whatever it wants, and will obviously try to play both sides for its own benefit, but it's undeniable that under Putin, they've drifted far closer to Israel. This is a good article from about 6 weeks ago: https://imrussia.org/en/analysis/3256-the-tightrope-walk-of-russian-israeli-relations

Quote below from Putin 2 days ago. A far cry from 20 years ago:

" "I would like to ask my colleagues to comment on the current situation in the Middle East, I mean the escalated Palestinian-Israeli conflict – this is happening in the immediate vicinity of our borders and directly affects our security interests," "
Not sure what in this article (or in this quote) contradicts what I’ve said or backs your claim. Russia isn’t in Israel’s corner, it tries to fill in the role of a power broker that handles the Middle Eastern conflict since USA quite clearly picked one side.
 

harms

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Nah Putin just likes Jews/Israel. It's always been strangely personal for him. He donates a lot personally too, and is harsh on anti-semitism.
Ehm, what? This is literally the first time I’m hearing of this — and as a Russian who takes some interest in politics I’d say that I’m fairly competent in the matter. He is obsessed with WW2, for example, but he scarcely ever talks about the Holocaust etc. He and FSB also played a big part in the rise of radical right movements in the early 00’s before in got out of control in 2010 (Manezhnaya) and they cut it out in a brutal fashion.


He has a few close friends/associates of Jewish ancestry (Rotenbergs/Abramovich), but I don’t think that the formers identify as such at all; Roman is a bit different, but that’s his personal stance that rarely ever was backed by Putin/government in any way.
 

harms

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I’ve looked through a bunch of those and for the most part it’s poor-informed wishful thinking, I’m sorry. I can do the same for Palestine, I can do the same for Muslims in general based on his backing, financial & political, of Caucasian republics etc. Using Berl Lazar & other officials in order to show the political divide in Russian Jewish society :lol:
 

Gehrman

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When Hamas launches rockets, is it unprovoked?
In this case no, you could ask knowing from previous experience, when you know what will happen whether it's a wise response. It certainly brings Gaza back in the media spotlight however as a overall strategy i'm not if its ultimately beneficial.
 

Rektsanwalt

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When Hamas launches rockets, is it unprovoked?

It's a never ending vicious circle. Everyone involved can always say that it was not unprovoked. This behaviour of revenge is known since mankind.
When having a look at this situation in the grand scheme, it is absolutely irrelevant who started the current debacle. Although I'm geographically completely out of touch with that region since I live in Germany, the horror stories of the middle eastern conflict have become everyday life for me. But even so, I remember (was about 7 or 8 years old) muslims of arab and iranian heritage dancing on tables in school when a terrorist attack of the Hamas was successful and I remember (not long time ago in that case) jews talking about palestinians as if they were disgusting animals, some nonhuman form of life, which would stem from their race. I can't imagine a peaceful solution and an end to this ongoing crisis in my personal lifetime (born 1990).
 

UweBein

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Why have right wing sentiments become stronger in Israel? Is it Netanyahu? Or were they always this extremist this century?
Probably because of George Bush aka W.
 

Dante

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That is an expected outcome when this occurs...



Why doesn’t Hamas position their mobile rocket launchers outside of the most populated areas?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/57111293

The Youtube video appears to have been deleted. But this BBC article explains that it was actually an Israeli decoy filmed in Galilee for a training exercise.

And here's a Tweet apologising for posting it in the first place.

 

VivaObertan

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I grew up learning that the Nazi holocaust was one of the worst acts in human history, why is it being allowed to take place again less than a century later?
 

Roane

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Just learned why the words of @Fearless etc. come across to the vast majority of us as batshit crazy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_diplomacy_of_Israel
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-23695896
https://electronicintifada.net/content/inside-israels-million-dollar-troll-army/27566

Turns out the Israeli state pays people to spread their vile propaganda online.
John Pilger made a documentary in this issue and even got some higher up folks in national media to admit the pressure applied on them to report things a certain way when it comes to Israel
 

Roane

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Yes, air strikers or artillery would usually happen and then shock troops would follow. Where are these troops?
And the last part? really? A video game?:houllier:
Ground troops are often not used depending on the aims.

So for example of Netanyahu is looking for support and more time in office with this current incursion then even a few dead IDF would be devastating for him.

As is often the case the public's appetite for war, or killing of a people is diminished when their own are killed.
 

Rektsanwalt

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I grew up learning that the Nazi holocaust was one of the worst acts in human history, why is it being allowed to take place again less than a century later?
Because it isn't. It isn't even remotely comparable. I mean, the atrocities that are happening on a daily basis in the middle east are despicable enough. So there's no need to exaggerate in that dimension, what's actually happening right now is bad enough. But I think these holocaust comparisons are widely used because a jewish state is involved, right?
 

Gehrman

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I grew up learning that the Nazi holocaust was one of the worst acts in human history, why is it being allowed to take place again less than a century later?
Hyperbole. If Israel were as ruthless as Nazi's they could wipe what counts as palestine in few days. The death toll since 1948 is far less than any almost any war or conflict of note since then.
 

Roane

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Because it isn't. It isn't even remotely comparable. I mean, the atrocities that are happening on a daily basis in the middle east are despicable enough. So there's no need to exaggerate in that dimension, what's actually happening right now is bad enough. But I think these holocaust comparisons are widely used because a jewish state is involved, right?
Sorry if this sounds insensitive but is holocaust, as a word, only applicable to WW2 and killing of Jewish folk?

Not a trick question here. Maybe it's a language thing but I've seen it used for Uighars and initially for the Yazidis etc.

On here some folk seem to use it just for Jewish people.

Is it not a general term as per the definition? As in killing of a people? Any people?
 

VivaObertan

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Because it isn't. It isn't even remotely comparable. I mean, the atrocities that are happening on a daily basis in the middle east are despicable enough. So there's no need to exaggerate in that dimension, what's actually happening right now is bad enough. But I think these holocaust comparisons are widely used because a jewish state is involved, right?
Hyperbole. If Israel were as ruthless as Nazi's they could wipe what counts as palestine in few days. The death toll since 1948 is far less than any almost any war or conflict of note since then.
I read about the origin of the word, it's definition before it became synonymous with one event in time and to me it seems applicable to use in this context.

Also, I don't think we should look at what is going on, determine it's not quite at the level as one of the worst human acts ever, so therefore determine it's not worthy of the descriptor.
 

VivaObertan

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Sorry if this sounds insensitive but is holocaust, as a word, only applicable to WW2 and killing of Jewish folk?

Not a trick question here. Maybe it's a language thing but I've seen it used for Uighars and initially for the Yazidis etc.

On here some folk seem to use it just for Jewish people.

Is it not a general term as per the definition? As in killing of a people? Any people?
I read about this yesterday as I was curious too. Seems the word is loosely Hebrew derived, and was used to describe acts in the 1800s. Since the Nazi holocaust of the 1940s, it became "The Holocaust" with a capital H.

That's why I referred to what's going on as holocaust.
 

Gehrman

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I read about the origin of the word, it's definition before it became synonymous with one event in time and to me it seems applicable to use in this context.

Also, I don't think we should look at what is going on, determine it's not quite at the level as one of the worst human acts ever, so therefore determine it's not worthy of the descriptor.
It's not worthy of the descriptor.
 

diarm

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If you can't fight back then don't start a fight.
I've never thought this about anyone on the caf before, because I don't know any of ye from Adam. But reading your posts on here this week, I feel comfortable saying it.

You are not a good person.