The financial gap doesn't matter unless they are spending £300m every transfer window. When you look at City's team there's not a single player they have that we couldn't afford. In fact the money we've wasted on shite like Mkhitaryan, Darmian, Depay, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger, Falcao, Lindelof, Rojo is more than they spent on Silva, De Bryune, Jesus, Aguero, and Sterling. Their spending hasn't been so extreme that it's impossible for us to keep up, it's only our abysmal management and squandering of that money that has allowed them to pull so far ahead of us.
It has happened under every manager since Fergie left...
- Thread starter Feed Me
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I think Jose knows most of our players aren't good enough and he's trying to grind on whilst knowing there will be bad days. It almost feels like he's giving some players enough rope to hang themselves with at the moment, perhaps to reinforce his argument with the board that we need to spend big. A tactic he did at Chelsea when he wanted a new striker.
And rightfully so. The moment our club puts 4th or 3rd as a target will be the moment we officialy turn into Liverpool/Arsenal.
Mourinho is not Wenger, he won't be a part of a club that puts 4th as a target and celebrates that as some sort of achievement.
And therin lies the problem. There are 7-8 players who know they will be picked whether they bust a gut on the pitch or not. If they were under pressure by having someone on the bench waiting their place or a good young un who could oust them, even temporarily, they would try a lot harder.
We've signed plenty of of new players who are just as uninspiring. At this point the manager's head is not enough, the executives need to roll too.
I warched all the games of the top sides except the Spurs and nobody is really playing well in the last weeks, probably due to fatigue.
Some teams have more power up front and can keep winning in those conditions, but they are struggling too.
Some teams have more power up front and can keep winning in those conditions, but they are struggling too.
Shaw was an embarrassment in the last 10 minutes. Stopped trying. Mkhitaryan looked like he wanted to fail on the left side of attack. Almost like "I told you so" attitude.
I agree. Both clubs are financially powerful.
Very surprised by the acquisition price of players like:
- Schneiderlin: £25 million two years ago. Just a decent midfielder
- Fellaini: £27.5 million. Just a decent midfielder
- Lindelof: €35 million (with a potential €10 million in add-ons). High price for a player coming from the Portuguese league. The issue is that money should have spent on a winger or full-back or playmaker...
Players like Rojo or Darmian weren't expensive but quality should always prevail over quantity.
Falcao and Depay were interesting gambles. The latter was about to join PSG but LVG made a call so that Depay joined United at the last minute
There comes a point when players stop believing in their manager and lose faith that this is the guy who will give them success. Our lot appear to have lost faith in the idea that Mourinho's style , philosophy and transfer purchases are actually going to bring success. They probably question whether he will actually be there for that much longer.
The league title is now a mirage. They probably realise that the way Jose gets them playing won't be good enough to win the CL. Also , our attack minded , creative players like Mata , Miki , Martial , Rashford must get pretty bored with the negative tactics in big games. It's humiliating for them to sit back and cower in fear in their own box as soon as they play a good team.
All this leads to low confidence and poor play. It's up to the manager to get his players playing for him and believing in him. He's just not doing that. He just looks glum , frustrated and moans about refs. They want him gone and to be fair I don't blame them.
The league title is now a mirage. They probably realise that the way Jose gets them playing won't be good enough to win the CL. Also , our attack minded , creative players like Mata , Miki , Martial , Rashford must get pretty bored with the negative tactics in big games. It's humiliating for them to sit back and cower in fear in their own box as soon as they play a good team.
All this leads to low confidence and poor play. It's up to the manager to get his players playing for him and believing in him. He's just not doing that. He just looks glum , frustrated and moans about refs. They want him gone and to be fair I don't blame them.
They have spent 34% more than us, it's a significant sum
So lets get a manager players will like. That's piss easy.
Also they want him gone stuff is.. Well you don't know that, do you?
2009-2017 period
Purchased Gross: 1.2 bn for City against 680 millions for United
Sold: 316 million City vs 229 for United
Net spend: 874 m City vs 450m United
Summer 2016 + Summer 2017
Purchased Gross: 395m for City against 296 millions for United
Sold: 95m City vs 28 for Unite
Net spend: 300m City vs 268m United
Conclusion
Both clubs have probably a similar failure rate when it comes to recruit.
Yes its more like 100% more spend by City since the Arab takeover. Also City planned on Pep's management since before he had his time at Bayern, so at least some of the purchases over the last 5 years were made with that in mind by his ex-Barca mates. As many have said M has had to try to reverse awful transfer decisions made by United since Fergie's retirement. M's one big mistake was thinking United already had enough to mean Pogba would be the 'cream on top' to make an instant impact. Unfortunately as he has found, united are a pale imitation of Fergie days.
Somehow United need to spend about £400m more than city to close the gap. I think the only possible way to do this, is to admit mistakes and raise £200m from sale of Pogba and Martial to madrid. United don't need 2/3 players, they need 7/8 to close the gap. The only way to do this is to raise funds and be very very clever buying exactly what is needed.
Its not impossible. Its exactly what Juve did before they launched their latest 'monopoly' of Italian football. They were in a worst state than united, but ruthlessly decided to do something about it. Bayern also went through a similar process 15 or so years ago.
M is exactly the right manager/coach during such a transition, he would love 'his' team rising from the ashes.
This is where senior players are invaluable! Only so much a manager can do to sort out the long faces, shirkers and want-aways.
Yes, all players who don't think they'll win the CL just quit playing.
Plus the 19 PL teams who aren't in 1st place all just stop playing.
The other threads talk about bringing Giggs/Scholes, who knows who else back. Is that the plan? Does that explain this drumbeat?
GK 12 Júlio César
RB 13 Maicon
CB 6 Lúcio
CB 25 Walter Samuel
LB 26 Cristian Chivu
CM 4 Javier Zanetti (c)
CM 19 Esteban Cambiasso
AM 10 Wesley Sneijder
RF 9 Samuel Eto'o
CF 22 Diego Milito
LF 27 Goran Pandev
Look at this team José won UCL with against LVGs Bayern Munich. What is the most striking thing? Talent? Nope.Pace? Nope. 7 South Americans? Uh..No. There is about 9 leaders who could captain your team. Chivu was captain at Ajax at 23! Lucio, Samuel, Zanetti, Cambiasso, Sneijder all real men.
We need leaders not just players.
RB 13 Maicon
CB 6 Lúcio
CB 25 Walter Samuel
LB 26 Cristian Chivu
CM 4 Javier Zanetti (c)
CM 19 Esteban Cambiasso
AM 10 Wesley Sneijder
RF 9 Samuel Eto'o
CF 22 Diego Milito
LF 27 Goran Pandev
Look at this team José won UCL with against LVGs Bayern Munich. What is the most striking thing? Talent? Nope.Pace? Nope. 7 South Americans? Uh..No. There is about 9 leaders who could captain your team. Chivu was captain at Ajax at 23! Lucio, Samuel, Zanetti, Cambiasso, Sneijder all real men.
We need leaders not just players.
I dont know what the problem is but whatever there is a glaring issue somewhere and the dogs in the street know it.
My take is there is some sort of disconnect between the players. At one stage it looked like whatever Shaw did he wasn't getting a game. Martial was out of favour for quite awhile too.
Not blaming these players BTW but Matic wont be dropped, Dave, Pogba, Lukaku the same. I imagine when fit, Tony V walks back into the team. Rashford has played a part in every game so far? There is no-one breathing down the squads neck pushing hard to take the jersey. And I know Imna get slaughtered for it but Lingard looks to me to be the only one playing above his natural level (argue about what that is if you want but to me he is playing better than he naturally is).
Form? Looking for others to take up the slack? No pressure of giving up your place? No fear of anyone taking it? No-one good enough coming through? Buying mediocre? Manager has a set way and 'no matter how the feck well you do or how bad your competition for the place plays hes always picked'? I was looking forward to seeing what would happen if Rom wasn't performing and Zlatan was fit. Who gets dropped, when do they get another chance?
Fletch, O' Shea, Neville, Park were never top-of-the-pile players but you always got an 8/10 if not more effort from them. Ander is not as bad as hes playing, surely to feck Mkhi can pass a ball 5 yards/use his left leg? But for whatever reason - its not happening.
If its effort - feck the players off. Doesn't matter who they are be ruthless (remember when Sir Alex was going he was just about to get shot of Rooney if I recall?) - light a fire under the others or get personnel who want the shirt. If its motivation feck the manager off (Personally I want to see what a focused Jose can do here and I want him to stay a long time). Whatever it is or wherever its coming from - cut the excuses and moaning out - do your feckin job!
TLDR - sorry I was at the Gin for the New Year!
My take is there is some sort of disconnect between the players. At one stage it looked like whatever Shaw did he wasn't getting a game. Martial was out of favour for quite awhile too.
Not blaming these players BTW but Matic wont be dropped, Dave, Pogba, Lukaku the same. I imagine when fit, Tony V walks back into the team. Rashford has played a part in every game so far? There is no-one breathing down the squads neck pushing hard to take the jersey. And I know Imna get slaughtered for it but Lingard looks to me to be the only one playing above his natural level (argue about what that is if you want but to me he is playing better than he naturally is).
Form? Looking for others to take up the slack? No pressure of giving up your place? No fear of anyone taking it? No-one good enough coming through? Buying mediocre? Manager has a set way and 'no matter how the feck well you do or how bad your competition for the place plays hes always picked'? I was looking forward to seeing what would happen if Rom wasn't performing and Zlatan was fit. Who gets dropped, when do they get another chance?
Fletch, O' Shea, Neville, Park were never top-of-the-pile players but you always got an 8/10 if not more effort from them. Ander is not as bad as hes playing, surely to feck Mkhi can pass a ball 5 yards/use his left leg? But for whatever reason - its not happening.
If its effort - feck the players off. Doesn't matter who they are be ruthless (remember when Sir Alex was going he was just about to get shot of Rooney if I recall?) - light a fire under the others or get personnel who want the shirt. If its motivation feck the manager off (Personally I want to see what a focused Jose can do here and I want him to stay a long time). Whatever it is or wherever its coming from - cut the excuses and moaning out - do your feckin job!
TLDR - sorry I was at the Gin for the New Year!
What the fecking feck are you on about? Pogba / Mhki / Lukaku / Matic isn't inspiring? It's Jose's failure to implement a system that gets the best out of them. He has no idea how to coach offence, which we are in dire need of.
Bar Pogba and Matic, yes. Also, there's the thing about all of them playing together and fitting a mentality.
People seem to forget that Fergie often had ONE other team to worry about. Let’s not pretend that Fergie didn’t have bad spells, because he did. The league is more competitive now than in his day and there are now a number of teams fighting for the title every year (this year hasn’t gone the way a lot of teams want). Fergie also had a LOT of dud signings. Things don’t always work out the way we want. Let’s not kid ourselves that we haven’t improved over the past few years though. Nobody could have predicted the season City are having. If it wasn’t for that we’d be looking in pretty good shape right now. Have the last few games been good to watch? Hell no! Do I think we need a bit of a change in style? Hell yes! There is only one person that can make that decision though.
You're wrong on all three of those players. They are all good players and on best form would be starters. Blind's best position is problematic but he passes the ball well enough to play at this level. Also reads the game. Mkhitaryan is not a wide left player. How the fans who turn up at OT to boo players think that helps is beyond me.
The only time I've felt like booing (didn't though) was against Exeter in the cup in Fergie's day.
Get behind the team.
Monte you're spot on. No misfits there. Leaders! Who's our leader on the pitch?
Oh come now. Would you rather go up against Mhki and Lukaku under Klopp / Pep whose systems allow such players to flourish?
Agreed on the leaders point. Our lads are too pally-pally and too interested in fooling around on social media than to lay down the law in the dressing-room. You'd think as professional footballers that there'd be some semblance of pride and passion within them, but many of our players exude a passive and care-free attitude before, during and after games. It's absolutely galling to witness.
And that's not really the most used team, Thiago Motta and Stankovic were regulars and they are also leaders. But it's important to make the point that you don't want that team at all, it's an old team that is only good if you want to have a last shot at winning silverware, this team is a one way ticket to a massive rebuilding process which is exactly what happened.
i think you will find we are
Not an excuse but the City defeat has killed it for us and the players have given up since.
Quite frankly it is shocking and if there is visibly no effort then they should be docked/fined.
Quite frankly it is shocking and if there is visibly no effort then they should be docked/fined.
No competition for places, and the lack of faith shown by the manager, the Liverpool game was the turning point of our season, going from tearing teams apart 4 nil on a regular basis and we could see the fear factor returning but then he shot their confidence down by basically telling them they're not as good as Liverpool by setting up as cowardly as we did.
Fergie left a title winning team that, in all honesty, only he could win the title with. At the same point we lost Gill. Moyes with a naive Woody destroyed that team. LVG bought poorly and further wrecked the team. The only reason we managed a top 4 finish during LVG's time was the transition of managers occuring in the other top 6 teams.
Jose inherited a mess. He has been backed with funds but only adequately and to ti fair he has bought reasonably well. Even Mhiki who is currently under the microscope has done OK, first 5 or 6 ganes this season he was close to awesome but clearly has a fragile confidence that might be linked to playing in a more competitive league.
Mourinho should be backed by the board and the fans. I was at the match vs Southampton and was disgusted with the booing. We are Utd, we shouldn't be acting like a mid 90's City.
Jose inherited a mess. He has been backed with funds but only adequately and to ti fair he has bought reasonably well. Even Mhiki who is currently under the microscope has done OK, first 5 or 6 ganes this season he was close to awesome but clearly has a fragile confidence that might be linked to playing in a more competitive league.
Mourinho should be backed by the board and the fans. I was at the match vs Southampton and was disgusted with the booing. We are Utd, we shouldn't be acting like a mid 90's City.
The City game killed their confidence and desire to chase them for the PL but I wouldn't say they've stopped trying. It looks like they're out of ideas and lacking confidence. It will change once we start getting lucky and picking up some wins.
I still give Jose my backing as a supporter but he needs to try something new.
Hire a drill coach on the attacking side of things, we are so predictable and slow moving forwards at times it's actually kind of concerning.
Two new midfielders to back up Pogba and Matic
two new wingers to sure up our attack - because of our predictable play through the middle.
Hire a drill coach on the attacking side of things, we are so predictable and slow moving forwards at times it's actually kind of concerning.
Two new midfielders to back up Pogba and Matic
two new wingers to sure up our attack - because of our predictable play through the middle.
I think he is a pragmatist and a realist.
I think he was damaged by the Chelsea affair on two fronts, one how he was perceived to have treated Eva Carneiro and secondly how he was persisting with at least one player way past their best. He needs a successful spell somewhere which is why I think you will finish in the top four and probably win the FA Cup. Now that won't satisfy the majority of fans though they would probably accept another season with in theory him getting 'his' replacements to challenge. The board will be happy as the revenue keeps coming in.
IMO he is successful because he goes to extremes to win yet in doing this invariably he alienates people, do it enough times and you will lose the dressing room.
I don't see him walking unless he gets a better offer in the UK as his kids are being educated in the UK. I think this might be part of the strain he doesn't see his family often now.
Of course in saying all this he can self-destruct..............
I'm backing the manager. He's the one who has won leagues titles and trophies everywhere he's gone and some of this bunch of players have proven to not have what it takes to be play at the levels we require.
I can't understand the question.
The players are all grown adults. It's fine to shoulder some of the responsibility on the manager to get them to perform, but he's dealing with a group of players who seem to have the average mental age of about 8.
You'd struggle to count on one hand the players we have who don't display noticable stupidity or poor attitude during games. That isn't something any manager can just fix, except by replacing most of them.
Problem for Jose is this problem includes some of the players he's signed. Pogba is a complete laughing stock in terms of mentality, and Mhikitaryan sees too need a 6 weeks off to sulk every time he has a poor game.
I mean we bought Pogba and all the talk was of him bringing winning mentality and arrogance back to United. All he's brought is goofing around like a fecking childish moron.
You'd struggle to count on one hand the players we have who don't display noticable stupidity or poor attitude during games. That isn't something any manager can just fix, except by replacing most of them.
Problem for Jose is this problem includes some of the players he's signed. Pogba is a complete laughing stock in terms of mentality, and Mhikitaryan sees too need a 6 weeks off to sulk every time he has a poor game.
I mean we bought Pogba and all the talk was of him bringing winning mentality and arrogance back to United. All he's brought is goofing around like a fecking childish moron.
So you said aside from Pog and Matic our other signings were uninspiring, including Mkhi and Lukaku. Both Mkhi and Rom are players who thrive on the creation of space through movement and passing, something Klopp's and Pep's teams do extremely well. So I was asking if you'd rather we come up against Rom / Mkhi managed by those 2 managers?
The solution isn't to keep spending or buying new players. We have to improve our tactics, otherwise players will continue to struggle here. We're already seeing it happen to Pogba.
Everyone can see that a lot of our players are underperforming and that it is down to the manager to lift them. But what if he just cannot lift them.
Maybe he has lost the players with all the public bashing he has given them. We seen how he was shouting at Shaw in the game against Southampton on Tuesday. This is putting players off their game when he should be encouraging them. Shaw took his eye off the ball one time because of Mourinho shouting at him.
All this is not good for the team. It should be done behind closed doors and if a player needs an arm around him, Mourinho should be there to do it. In any profession if you are fair to your staff you get better results. This also refers to footballers. If you hang them out to dry, you lose their respect and I think this is the problem.
Mourinho either sits them down together or individually, and try to sort this out before it goes too far. Then he has to have a good look at himself take some of the blame, and start doing things behind closed doors.
Maybe he has lost the players with all the public bashing he has given them. We seen how he was shouting at Shaw in the game against Southampton on Tuesday. This is putting players off their game when he should be encouraging them. Shaw took his eye off the ball one time because of Mourinho shouting at him.
All this is not good for the team. It should be done behind closed doors and if a player needs an arm around him, Mourinho should be there to do it. In any profession if you are fair to your staff you get better results. This also refers to footballers. If you hang them out to dry, you lose their respect and I think this is the problem.
Mourinho either sits them down together or individually, and try to sort this out before it goes too far. Then he has to have a good look at himself take some of the blame, and start doing things behind closed doors.
I don't think that we"vet reached that stage yet,I don't think the players have stopped playing for the manager,I think that far too many players have gone off the boil at the same time.But if the players stop putting in the effort,then let's get rid of those players,let's back the manager.Where on earth will we find a better manager than Mourinho??If the club stands by the manager and ships out the nonperformers,then that will send a very powerful message to the other players and to the prospective new signings.Lets stand by the manager,lets ship out the non performing players....
Not an irrelevant fact. If you look at PSG's squad, there are 9 South-American players (5 Brazilians + 3 Argentinians + 1 Uruguayan).
If we exclude the goalkeepers, let's say there are 4 French players: M'bappé, Kimpembe, Nkunku and Rabiot.
Thank for clarifying. It's been said somewhere else about the lack of leadership but i think this should extend to the lack of fighting mentality. Ever since SAF retired, regardless of poor management and changes of personnel, very few players have kept fighting and trying. I don't know if it's just me and my "eye test" but Romelu and Mkhi both look as if spiriling lower and lower. I read "oh well" on their faces rather than "let's get them" in almost all matches. You can say this is purely subjective and that i should stop acting like a psychologist. Still, i don't see the combative spirit in them. Matic is also similar but slightly more consistent.
If Romelu does better in other teams it doesn't only show that they suit him more, it also shows how resigned he is here. Why? Because some difference is excusable but this is unacceptable, as if he isn't learning from his bad performances.