It is tiring pretending that there is not a right way to 'support' a club - there absolutely is

Siorac

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I mean even under Jose we were never really close to the title that year. IMO one whole year's worth of data is meaningful, if that puts us on course for an 80+ pt season I'm happy to take that at face value - it's not as if we're extrapolating from 5-10 games. Ole's most likely not getting sacked this season, so we can make an even more informed judgement come summer.

Hypothetically, if we finish 3rd at 80+ pts this season and we get Sancho in the summer, would you be okay with Ole for another season?
If we finish at anywhere above 75 points with CL qualification, I'm OK with Ole continuing because at least that does represent progress over the last couple of seasons. I just don't think it's outlandish to believe that he doesn't have what it takes to win major titles based on the available evidence so far. I can't really see it happening - the major titles, I mean - but I'm by nature a pessimist when it comes to football so I have a certain bias.
 

RUCK4444

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I couldn’t tell you. But all I know is football fans moan. A lot of people need to deal with it... When I go to watch United live it’s never been all hugs and kiss. We celebrate and we moan. Redcafe’s become UK Politics for a good year now. Brexit has infected us.
When I’m at games you don’t have people calling the manager a PE teacher and an idiot like you get here.

In fact his name is sung most games.

There’s a unity in match going fans, everyone has their opinion but they are behind the team and manager, the vitriol here is a different animal.

I suppose I shouldn’t expect the same here on an internet platform.

I despised Mourinho, his negative couldn’t be arsed attitude, his football, his signings mostly, his miserable demeanour whilst managing this legendary club literally offended me... I still didn’t resort to calling him names and filling every thread with negativity.
 

Mainoldo

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When I’m at games you don’t have people calling the manager a PE teacher and an idiot like you get here.

In fact his name is sung most games.

There’s a unity in match going fans, everyone has their opinion but they are behind the team and manager, the vitriol here is a different animal.

I suppose I shouldn’t expect the same here on an internet platform.

I despised Mourinho, his negative couldn’t be arsed attitude, his football, his signings mostly, his miserable demeanour whilst managing this legendary club literally offended me... I still didn’t resort to calling him names and filling every thread with negativity.
Again. This always reverts back to the manager which Is the problem. The whole Cafe has just become a left wing right wing Ole Gunnar Solksjaer forum. Who has the energy maybe fans just want to debate maybe fans like making up catchy phrases like PE teacher, Trashford, Beep Beep (Dan James. So what.... at the end of the day we all support the club. How people want to support it is up to them. Stop policing how we want to criticise a manager you’ll probably find the less we back people against the wall the more natural opinions we get. This thread deep down is really just another back Ole thread.

I don’t know about you but I’ve heard some foul things said at players in the ground far worse than calling someone a PE teacher :lol:
 

Moonwalker

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Everything you write is spot on Twigg. Now if only you were as supportive of Mourinho (a man the majority of us now recognize as a complete wanker), your view would be so much more credible.
 

Wumminator

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Everything you write is spot on Twigg. Now if only you were as supportive of Mourinho (a man the majority of us now recognize as a complete wanker), your view would be so much more credible.
Thank you, to be fair I think it is obvious why Mourinho didn’t get as much leeway with some of his stunts, I still tried to get behind him!
 

Grande

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I started following the team in the early 60s so I have seen a fair number of flair players, workhorses, warriors, disappointments, pleasant surprises and icons pull on the jersey.
When I look at old match footage or think about games I attended, I smile at the difference in several key factors.
Pitch quality is obvious and I’m pretty sure today’s best dribblers would not be able to replicate their skills on the ploughed surfaces of bygone days.
Refereeing standards are another huge difference. I went to matches where a ref like Moss would have shown the red card to a third of the players or more. If you were a young, skilful winger (such as George Best), you’d get a few proper kicks early doors to put you in your place. Today’s flair players get much more protection than was the case.
A further key difference is fitness levels. Quite simply no comparison between then and now.
One final small point is the construction of the ball itself. Technology has made control easier and there’s again no comparison between an old school saturated laced leather ball and today’s computer-generated creations.
Taken in the round, I think all of these factors make it nigh on impossible to make a meaningful comparison across the decades.
I think you just pointed out a lot of factors which explain why we see more flair in England than back then.
 

Grande

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I couldn’t tell you. But all I know is football fans moan. A lot of people need to deal with it... When I go to watch United live it’s never been all hugs and kiss. We celebrate and we moan. Redcafe’s become UK Politics for a good year now. Brexit has infected us.
I get what you’re saying. Minus a fair bit of hooliganism and violence. Which of course some people miss. Whereas to me, hooliganism was back then, and still is, a bad way of supporting a team, if it is at all supporting a team. And that goes regardless of how common it is.

Of course, when saying that, somone my accuse me of aggressively violating their right to advocate violence as an equally valuable way of support by argumenting against it. But to me, argumenting for something is not the same as beating someone up, censoring them or attacking them.
 

redmanx

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It's baffling isn't it, particularly what you're saying about McTominay. I mean he's a tiny kid that nobody thought would make it here who ended up somehow becoming a giant. Coach after coach loves him, he's passionate and professional, he's scored against loads of our rivals. Yes he's frustrating because he's not a natural class footballer like some of our squad but how you can't at least wish him well and support him while he's here I don't understand. He's also clearly good enough to play a role for us even if ideally it wouldn't be as first choice.
McTominay is very similar to Darren Fletcher in not being perhaps as naturally gifted as some of his team mates; Nicky Butt was another and he was expected to fill in for the likes of Scholes, Keane and Beckham, and did, giving us some incredible peformances! McTominay will become a very decent player, no Ronaldo or Bryan Robson, nor a Scholes or Keane, but none the less a United stalwart who can be relied upon to give 100% plus and every now and then chip in with something quite brilliant, ala Fletcher and Butt.
 

Le Red

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Forfeiting the right to criticise and brainlessly supporting something is not the right way to anything.
 

Wumminator

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No you didn’t.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the...ication-in-calling-for-mourinhos-head.433656/

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/mou...ts-after-he-had-conquered-their-heads.434223/

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/signs-of-progress-mourinho-vs-van-gaal.426180/


Why on Earth people have made out like I was horrendously negative for years here is absolutely beyond me.

there’s three threads here where I am very fair to Mourinho...the silence from people calling me a hypocrite will obviously now be interesting.
 

Wumminator

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Can someone honestly explain where this idea that I was relentlessly negative and horrible about Mourinho comes from?

I mean.. I was right about Mourinho.. negative? No.
There is a thread above where on the first page I am going through posters who are calling him to be sacked and telling him to feck off and going over the top.

That’s not hypocritical. I have never disrespected a United manager or player because he’s lost matches.
I am the most consistent poster on this board. Some people are criticising me for my opinions on Ibra - my opinion that he would struggle to adapt to a new league and it was a risk signing a player that old who would come increasingly injury prone... I stand by those worries. I made a bet he’d score eight goals from open play in the league or less... was it eleven he got in the end? I wasn’t horrible about him when he was here or made up horrendous names about him and insulting him.

People should read the threads I have posted above. Those who called me hypocrites - read them and then evaluate your position on what I am saying. Are you arguing with what I’ve said or a fictional boogeyman in your head who you are annoyed with because he’s quoted you getting things wrong in the past?

The one thread that has been linked here with me questioning Mourinho earlier on was so well written and captured the zeitgeist of the time it made its way to national media. But yeah... paint me as a hypocrite with low quality posts.

 
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You made this thread literally 3 months into his first season :lol:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/when-does-mourinhos-job-come-under-threat.423360/

That was not only 3 months into the job, he’d beaten City in the cup 1 week earlier.

Was that thread “well written”? I’ll answer for you, no, it was a whiny feck thread to be a whiny negative feck in, the type of thing you are trying to blame others for now. Does it get more hypocritical than that?

You had your name changed because you were so outrageously over negative about Zlatan.

You were insufferable from the off, that’s where it comes from. You cared more about your hatred of Mourinho than about supporting the club.

I mean, look at the replies to you there, almost 100% of posters flabbergasted with the negativity:

@Burrow “I’m done with our fans”
@lem8sh “This”
@Moby “Absolutely”

@TheReligion ”Likewise. This forum is full of cnuts at the moment.”

@Attila “How surprising...

You really are a clown. Total positivity for Moyes but now a manager you don't like is here and you come up with this shit.”

@villain “Our fans are an absolute joke.”

@Rado_N “For the fecking love of fecking feck. I'm out. feck sake.”

If the forum was moderated the way you want, you’d have been long gone for that constant negative barrage.
 
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OL29

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For years you've called stalwarts of the club names like 'OShit', 'Carsick' and other suchlike insults.

You once asked for the Best statue to be taken down as he is a 'drunkard'.

This is the kind of shit I am talking about. Stop changing the subject.
This you?
 
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He’s an awful poster.

Search for “Zlatan” by @Wumminator, even whilst the guy was winning us cups, scoring 28 goals in a season and proving what a great influence he was, Wummy couldn’t shut up moaning about him, all fecking season long.

Whinge whinge whinge, that’s all he did, way more toxic than any single poster during the Ole years.

The Wummy top red playbook goes like this, if he doesn’t like you, player or manager, he has the right to be toxic as feck and ruin the forum. If however, there’s a manager or player he likes, the rest of you do not have that same right.
 
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Some people are criticising me for my opinions on Ibra - my opinion that he would struggle to adapt to a new league and it was a risk signing a player that old who would come increasingly injury prone... I stand by those worries. I made a bet he’d score eight goals from open play in the league or less... was it eleven he got in the end?


You quickly changed your tune when it turned into a bet, yet you, super fan, still made a bet AGAINST A UNITED PLAYER FFS.
You lost that bet, lost your username with it (well played @Attila), Zlatan won us the Charity Shield and league cup, and scored 28 goals that season.
Did you shut up whining about him? Did you feck, it went on all season long.
 

Leroy The Red

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@Wumminator
Good to see you’ve been called out on your bullshit.
Strange idea to make such an obnoxious, self satisfying and sanctimonious thread when you have history, people don’t forget as you can see.
I remember seeing this thread a few days ago and seeing your name next to it and i knew immediately it would be you telling everyone how to support Man United.
Theres now three active posters on this forum who are constantly falling over themselves telling everyone how they’re supposed to support United.

What this basically consists of is 100% backing Ole and never saying a bad word about him.
All other managers can be criticised and mocked (as you did with Mourinho)
Players can be mocked and criticised, the board can be slagged off and criticised but don’t you must never ever say Oles name in vain.
 

U.N.C.L.E

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It’s sad to admit but ”the pub rule” is no longer adhered to in online forums.

For those old enough to remember, it went something like this....couple fans arguing the game over a few pints and they usually thought the following before speaking....

”Will what I’m about to say likely result in my being glassed”.

That rule kept most pre-online football discussions civil. I did say “most”, not all.
 

Olecurls99

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Your Rodgers observation doesn't 'rankle' me at all, I just find it a bit irrelevant. Rodgers is managing Leicester City, a club with a revenue of less than a third of ours. It's not the standard we should compare ourselves against.

As for Mourinho's second place: I fully agree that we mostly played awful football and the final points total flattered us big time. I hated Mourinho's football and quickly became sick of the man himself, too. The point, however, is that Ole inherited a top 4 squad and turned it into a... top 4 squad; it's now a younger top 4 squad with slightly better potential but it's not a huge, unquestionable achievement as you portray it to be. And there ARE some parallels with that 2017/18 seasons: we are, once again, overperforming our metrics in terms of points. Understat's expected points table has us at 26.70 points, which is far worse than the actual record of 33 points, and much closer to our standard of last season and the season before that. Only Southampton and Everton have been overperforming by a bigger margin so far. Liverpool are pretty much exactly where they should be and City (and Chelsea) underperform.

Ole's big game record isn't significantly better than that of his predecessors (or at all, really, at this point), with the exception of Moyes who was just a disaster on every level. That he beat Leipzig and PSG isn't exactly a great argument, considering he then proceeded to lose to both and exit the CL. So my slightly mischievous remark was meant to correct your assertion that somehow the other two can't even get close to him in this regard when in reality, they very much can, and there's actually very little between them at this point.


This is very much debatable, by the way: when Mourinho got sacked - which, again, was long overdue and I'm not in any way trying to claim he should have stayed; he should have been fired after the Sevilla press conference, in fact -, we were... 6th.

What I'm trying to get at is that it's not at all undeniable that we have made great progress. Ole has indeed revamped the squad quite a bit - but it remains to be seen if it yields better results than Van Gaal's gutting of the squad. So far, in my opinion, he hasn't achieved anything that we haven't seen from either of his predecessors and no matter how much you or Bilbo or sammsky try to claim that it is now definitely a steep, unstoppable upward trajectory, the fact is you base that optimistic prediction on little more than, well, optimism and faith. And you shouldn't disparage people who don't share the same optimism and faith because they have very good reasons for their own pessimistic outlook. Just as we had good reasons for pessimism when Mourinho finished second - which I never championed so stop putting words in my mouth, if you would -, even though the optimists of that era kept telling us that there were clear and actual signs of progress (I was sick of hearing how we beat every team in the league at least once, and scored the most goals in the post-Fergie era). I don't think the situation is that much different, frankly, expect that this time our manager is a much nicer guy who doesn't intentionally set out to ruin football matches for everyone involved.

Again, the most important point is that there is plenty of room for debate here and those being negative about the prospects of the team aren't being ridiculous and out of line, nor are they necessarily toxic as the OP seems to suggest.
3 losses in 33 isn't grounds for optimism? Come now. Aren't we being a bit churlish?
 

Wumminator

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He’s an awful poster.

Search for “Zlatan” by @Wumminator, even whilst the guy was winning us cups, scoring 28 goals in a season and proving what a great influence he was, Wummy couldn’t shut up moaning about him, all fecking season long.

Whinge whinge whinge, that’s all he did, way more toxic than any single poster during the Ole years.

The Wummy top red playbook goes like this, if he doesn’t like you, player or manager, he has the right to be toxic as feck and ruin the forum. If however, there’s a manager or player he likes, the rest of you do not have that same right.
I have literally posted numerous threads of me being supportive. These examples you are given are absolutely ridiculous and have no vitriol. One of your examples is me saying a player won’t score enough in the league.

Like I said - people have trawled through my posts to find examples of negativity and really struggled. You only have to look at the threads I posted and the examples here to understand how I posted.
 

pav1790

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Okay, so seeing as Twiggy is getting called for his less than savory comments in the past, could I say that I echo his sentiments? And I’ve not had anything Horrendous to say about any of our current or former players or managers.
 

Wumminator

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How to support your club, list all signings post Fergie and then type....
Just so we are clear - your example of me being horrendously negative under Mourinho include a post made when Ole was in charge?

Just so people are aware - when Mourinho was here I believe I won multiple funniest thread and top red awards on the forum.My threads literally made the news for being so well researched and there were hundreds of people coming around to my way of thinking. I actively made the board a better place.
 
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Wumminator

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Okay, so seeing as Twiggy is getting called for his less than savory comments in the past, could I say that I echo his sentiments? And I’ve not had anything Horrendous to say about any of our current or former players or managers.
There have been about forty people in this thread now saying they agree. Most sensible posters seem to agree.

It’s an issue that is bubbling over in United fandom at the moment.
 

Wumminator

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One post is someone saying Ferguson and Busby needs incontinence pads.
The other is me saying I “hate” some of our squad players.
In my eyes the use of hyperbole is clear in that post you have shown, there’s no malice in there and I’m not degrading anyone.

I mean, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills at this point. Can anyone attacking me and trying desperately to find any incriminating posts, please argue with the majority in this thread who are agreeing?
 

pav1790

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There have been about forty people in this thread now saying they agree. Most sensible posters seem to agree.

It’s an issue that is bubbling over in United fandom at the moment.
I will be the first to raise my hand up and say that I am guilty of being unkind to some of the other fans though. But when I see some folks just mindlessly pursue agendas against a manager - a legend no less - who is doing well and may well bring us back to something we can recognize as a Manchester United football club - if he hasn’t done so already, I do get a bit miffed.
 

CG1010

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While lots of people have a lot to say in this thread, for my part I would say that I have been increasingly finding the constant negativity on this forum suffocating. It may be my personal choice but for me a community is a shared experience over something we all are hooked onto, not a bunch of people trying to be "right" be able to gleefully say "I told you so" when our team or some player does poorly. People will read this and say, "oh so you want us to pretend everything is rosy and great with United, that's how cults are formed".. but, no, all I want is for fans to not behave like entitled consumers and be disgruntled the entire week after a poor result or performance. It is as tedious to others as spending 24 hours a day with a cranky baby. And atleast I have started spending less and less on a forum I used to enjoy.

The other thing that's really tiresome is this constant debate on Ole in vs Ole out.. the man is our manager for foreseeable future (until end of the season atleast), can we just revisit the question then or if there is a really poor run of form (like there was earlier in the season). Every game where we don't perform well is not necessary where we need to start questioning our manager.

But anyways its my take, not imposing on anyone.. I just came here out of compulsive behaviour, closing the website again and getting some work done!
 

Wumminator

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While lots of people have a lot to say in this thread, for my part I would say that I have been increasingly finding the constant negativity on this forum suffocating. It may be my personal choice but for me a community is a shared experience over something we all are hooked onto, not a bunch of people trying to be "right" be able to gleefully say "I told you so" when our team or some player does poorly. People will read this and say, "oh so you want us to pretend everything is rosy and great with United, that's how cults are formed".. but, no, all I want is for fans to not behave like entitled consumers and be disgruntled the entire week after a poor result or performance. It is as tedious to others as spending 24 hours a day with a cranky baby. And atleast I have started spending less and less on a forum I used to enjoy.

The other thing that's really tiresome is this constant debate on Ole in vs Ole out.. the man is our manager for foreseeable future (until end of the season atleast), can we just revisit the question then or if there is a really poor run of form (like there was earlier in the season). Every game where we don't perform well is not necessary where we need to start questioning our manager.

But anyways its my take, not imposing on anyone.. I just came here out of compulsive behaviour, closing the website again and getting some work done!
Thank you. I find posts like this so vital.
 

The Boy

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Football fans as a whole are often massively entitled and expect brilliant results delivered every week without fail. It's not just Man Utd fans.

Some of the talk about Graham Potter on North Stand Chat is just as bad as some of things said about Ole here. It's easy to be over the top, rude and aggressive when no one knows who you really are, so lots of people don't bother holding back or observing what would be social norms if the forum were all in a room together face to face.

It is annoying and it does ruin a lot of the internet, but don't think it's just you guys, it's prevalent everywhere.
 

Siorac

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One post is someone saying Ferguson and Busby needs incontinence pads.
The other is me saying I “hate” some of our squad players.
In my eyes the use of hyperbole is clear in that post you have shown, there’s no malice in there and I’m not degrading anyone.

I mean, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills at this point. Can anyone attacking me and trying desperately to find any incriminating posts, please argue with the majority in this thread who are agreeing?
:lol: it was a good wum, I also took it seriously for a long time but now you've gone a bit too far with this, a little too obvious.