It is tiring pretending that there is not a right way to 'support' a club - there absolutely is

Jeppers7

Pogfamily Mafia
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
7,287
In a stadium you are an actor, if you create a tensed atmosphere in the stadium it will get to the players. It's no different to how a manager won't act the same way when he is on the touch line and when he is on the training ground, players can be lambasted during the week but you generally can't do that just before or during a game.
Yes....at the game our role is to support and encourage in the hope that it gives the players extra confidence and will. When the atmosphere becomes tense you can see it in the performance. When the match going support have got on the back of individuals, and I have been guilty myself occasionally, you can see it have an affect on their performance. So in that sense there is right and wrong.
 

Superden

Full Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2013
Messages
2,081
i do wonder how people wouldve coped in the 90s when a loss in a league game was a much bigger deal.

it is good to vent now and again, but i think its not healthy to lose sight of what are emotional responses and double down on them as opinions and then facts.

i also will support the club however i wish.
 

Random Task

WW Lynchpin
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
34,503
Location
Chester
Anyone can have any opinion they want.
However when
A) negativity is relentless
B) crosses over into personal attacks
C) needlessly over the top

it changes.
Childish name-calling and unconstructive criticism add nothing to a discussion, I agree, but that stuff is easily ignored or put down to a fan venting their frustrations.

Where do you stand on constructive criticism, though? For example: "Ole is a below-average tactician who often relies on moments of individual brilliance to carry his team over the winning line" or "Ole's indecisiveness during the game has and will continue to cost us valuable points"?

There is a lot of talk of "true fans" in this thread yet no one has described what it means to be one. Would you mind outlining exactly how you believe a true fan would and should act?
 

Chipper

Adulterer.
Joined
Oct 25, 2017
Messages
5,467
I agree with you on the first paragraph. As for the last one, the answer is that in all sports winning isn't everything or to be precise the evaluation doesn't stop after the game even you are victorious. You are always compared to what is deemed the best, so if United wins a game today while almost everyone will be satisfied depending on the level of performance some may point to the fact that things can/should be better, particularly when you consider the fact that we are in a context where you in league and cup formats you need to maintain or reach a certain standard in order to be successful.

You could compare it to exams, while it's good to have a B-, it's better to have an A+. And people want that for the team they support, they want to see United have A+ games, A+ seasons.
If ever there was a time to post this video:
 

Wumminator

The Qatar Pounder
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
22,933
Location
Obertans #1 fan.
Childish name-calling and unconstructive criticism add nothing to a discussion, I agree, but that stuff is easily ignored or put down to a fan venting their frustrations.

Where do you stand on constructive criticism, though? For example: "Ole is a below-average tactician who often relies on moments of individual brilliance to carry his team over the winning line" or "Ole's indecisiveness during the game has and will continue to cost us valuable points"?
It absolutely depends on context. If we’re posting after a ten game winning spree, those points are silly. If we are doing awfully, those points can be justified.
 

lysglimt

Full Member
Scout
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
15,105
Anyone having a go at a 19 year old for having a poor match is an idiot. Most 19 year olds aren't even near the first-team in the P.L - so he is allowed to have a lot more bad days than seasoned pros
 

lysglimt

Full Member
Scout
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
15,105
Childish name-calling and unconstructive criticism add nothing to a discussion, I agree, but that stuff is easily ignored or put down to a fan venting their frustrations.

Where do you stand on constructive criticism, though? For example: "Ole is a below-average tactician who often relies on moments of individual brilliance to carry his team over the winning line" or "Ole's indecisiveness during the game has and will continue to cost us valuable points"?

There is a lot of talk of "true fans" in this thread yet no one has described what it means to be one. Would you mind outlining exactly how you believe a true fan would and should act?
Yes but what you write here is a perfectly acceptable criticism - I dont agree with it, but it's possible to discuss. But the worst people here would write - Ole is incompetent or he is a fraud. You could argue that he is not good enough to take us to the top, but clearly its impossible to be incompetent and still take a team like ours above City and Liverpool in the table.
 

Robbie Boy

Full Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Messages
27,693
Location
Dublin
How have people been roped in by this :lol:

Kudos @Wumminator you've still got that old wumming spark after all these years. Thank you too, this thread made for some hilarious lunchtime reading. Just the tonic for what's going to be a very busy working week.
 

The Firestarter

Full Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Messages
28,111
As entertaining as the rant is, he also regretted it almost immediately and apologised to the squad the next day.
People complain about throwing players under the bus. This would be throwing them under the space shuttle crawler vehicle.
 

rotherham_red

Full Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
7,407
Personally, I don't understand the people complaining about the process under Ole.

I came of age during that 2003-2006 run under Fergie, and initially joined this site in 2004 (though I was lurking since 2003). We sold Beckham and Veron and were trying to phase out Keane, Giggs etc with people like Bellion and Djemba-Djemba and thought Tim Howard might be the guy to finally replace Schmeichel. We also got some skinny little runt from Portfugal that summer. It didn't work and first Arsenal and Chelsea just took it to another level which we couldn't at the time reach. But this place was never toxic back then like it is now. We reacted to defeats matter of factly and didn't think the world was ending. We knew as a fanbase that we were building something, and even when it got really bad, like the 2005 CL group KO, or Rob Smyth's shredding his legacy at every turn article, this forum was in the thrall of something akin to a siege mentality. Where has that gone?

The rebuild then was a lot easier than this one now, and after 5 years of aimlessness, we're actually looking at building something that is for the long-term and sustainable, and what's more, it's one of our own who is doing it. That should be the perfect formula for people on this board to give the man his backing at every step, but somehow it isn't and I just don't understand.

He's done it under very difficult circumstances, with a board who have only ever backed him half heartedly despite him reaching every target that they had set him. He's also taken us from 6th, to 3rd and currently on to 2nd. We're closer now to the title (even if we take on board that Liverpool have dropped off their usual levels) than we have ever been before (fun fact; we were closer to the title in terms of points under LvG than we ever were under Jose, seeing how so many of the Ole outers and Jose acolytes like to talk about points totals). He's developed our style of play from the tumescent stuff we used to see under Moyes, LvG and Jose. He's also made use of the kids and developed the talent that was already at the club and being wasted, and he's bought well when he's had the need and opportunity to do so.

Seriously, what more do the people who doubt him want? Just give the man in charge the benefit of the doubt and see where it leads, what is the harm in that? If it doesn't work out, then so be it, but if there's one person I am going to be willing to give that extra bit of rope to, it's Ole, and I have no qualms or concerns in doing so, or admitting to that.
 

RedDevil@84

Full Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2014
Messages
21,549
Location
USA
There is a lot of talk of "true fans" in this thread yet no one has described what it means to be one. Would you mind outlining exactly how you believe a true fan would and should act?
That is easy. You are a true fan, if you criticize/mock the same players/manager that I do. If you start criticizing players that I have my bias for, then you are just a moaning, agenda poster who does not know how to truly support the team.
 

b82REZ

Full Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
9,350
Location
Manchester
Personally, I don't understand the people complaining about the process under Ole.

I came of age during that 2003-2006 run under Fergie, and initially joined this site in 2004 (though I was lurking since 2003). We sold Beckham and Veron and were trying to phase out Keane, Giggs etc with people like Bellion and Djemba-Djemba and thought Tim Howard might be the guy to finally replace Schmeichel. We also got some skinny little runt from Portfugal that summer. It didn't work and first Arsenal and Chelsea just took it to another level which we couldn't at the time reach. But this place was never toxic back then like it is now. We reacted to defeats matter of factly and didn't think the world was ending. We knew as a fanbase that we were building something, and even when it got really bad, like the 2005 CL group KO, or Rob Smyth's shredding his legacy at every turn article, this forum was in the thrall of something akin to a siege mentality. Where has that gone?

The rebuild then was a lot easier than this one now, and after 5 years of aimlessness, we're actually looking at building something that is for the long-term and sustainable, and what's more, it's one of our own who is doing it. That should be the perfect formula for people on this board to give the man his backing at every step, but somehow it isn't and I just don't understand.

He's done it under very difficult circumstances, with a board who have only ever backed him half heartedly despite him reaching every target that they had set him. He's also taken us from 6th, to 3rd and currently on to 2nd. We're closer now to the title (even if we take on board that Liverpool have dropped off their usual levels) than we have ever been before (fun fact; we were closer to the title in terms of points under LvG than we ever were under Jose, seeing how so many of the Ole outers and Jose acolytes like to talk about points totals). He's developed our style of play from the tumescent stuff we used to see under Moyes, LvG and Jose. He's also made use of the kids and developed the talent that was already at the club and being wasted, and he's bought well when he's had the need and opportunity to do so.

Seriously, what more do the people who doubt him want? Just give the man in charge the benefit of the doubt and see where it leads, what is the harm in that? If it doesn't work out, then so be it, but if there's one person I am going to be willing to give that extra bit of rope to, it's Ole, and I have no qualms or concerns in doing so, or admitting to that.
But when people don't share the same faith as you, and that's all this is, faith, you are have previously tried (like OP) to silence those people.

It's just another form of top-reddiness that is paraded as fact, when in reality its just your biased opinion. You constantly absolve the manager by blaming the board for his shortcomings. Is that level of criticism allowed? Because despite how you, WUMs or sammsky try and spin it, they are still the club so by your definition deserve your unwavering support.

While no one condones the name calling, those posters are in the absolute minority yet anyone who has doubts over Ole are immediately pigeon holed as knee-jerk reactionary millennials.
 

Van Piorsing

Lost his light sabre
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
22,525
Location
Polska
OP has a sensitive point in extreme cases, but I wouldn't require from this place to become oasis of happiness and kumbaya after Pool winning the league. It simply won't work that way.

Things like mood and confidence in the team or the whole club for that matter will eventually get better with football progress... if not, then mods will start banning scousers, again. It's the best solution possible. :lol:

On a serious note Wumminator was right about Mourinho in the end. Surely not the right man to work with Woodward and board on transfer strategies in a long shot. I can only hope Ole will last longer, or the managers after him.
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
22,545
Location
Somewhere out there
Anyone can have any opinion they want.
However when
A) negativity is relentless
B) crosses over into personal attacks
C) needlessly over the top


it changes.
Ahhhhh, so basically Wumminator between June 2016 - May 2018.

You lost your username, because you were a negative feck remember? Or has that slipped your mind Twigginator?
 

RedBanker

I love you Ole
Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Messages
2,636
RAWK absolutely has a better level of quality than RedCafe.

I think I'm someone who goes the matches, loves United and promotes positivity with realistic expectations.

How many more people are going to have to say they stopped visiting the forum because of all the shit negativity before people realise this isn't a 'both sides' argument.
What now?
 

Siorac

Full Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Messages
23,789
What now?
He means that on RAWK moderators harshly clamp down on any sort of dissent from the official line. He wants the same system here, with him in charge of defining the aforementioned official line.

A lot of people are very much attracted to authoritarianism outside of politics, too.
 

Random Task

WW Lynchpin
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
34,503
Location
Chester
Yes but what you write here is a perfectly acceptable criticism - I dont agree with it, but it's possible to discuss. But the worst people here would write - Ole is incompetent or he is a fraud. You could argue that he is not good enough to take us to the top, but clearly its impossible to be incompetent and still take a team like ours above City and Liverpool in the table.
I don't necessarily agree with those opinions either, although they are justifiable to a degree - or at least they were a month into the season when the situation was concerning. Like Wum says above, context is everything.

I don't believe there is a right or wrong way to express your support for the club. So long as your opinions are sincere and with the interests of the club firmly at heart, you are supporting the club in the right way. Whether those opinions are negative or positive does not come into it.
 

Hansi Fick

New Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
5,057
Supports
FC Bayern
What's the point of being a football fan if you can't tell your manager to feck off?
As far as I can tell, "fan" is not short for "reasonably, measuredly supportive".

So it seems to me that the expectation you have for the kind of utterances and behaviour that would be on display on an online forum of football fans is completely off, if you have a problem with them being over the top, petulant, moaning, and constantly expressing wrong, exaggerated, hysterical, unreasonable, wildly inconsistent and blatantly contradictory stuff. That's what this is about, isn't it? We're supposed to keep it together in real life, not here. We need to cut everyone some slack, really.
 

Forevergiggs1

Full Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2019
Messages
3,443
Location
Barcelona
Supports
United
That is why the forum quality deteriorates though.
The forum deteriorated because right from the start with Ole, people were prepared to stick by him however much of a shit show he put on because it was Ole. It almost become an obsession with some. People definitely wouldn't of been as charitable towards the manager if it was someone else.

Now things seem to be on the up (relatively speaking) it's as if people who supported Ole from the get go want to rub peoples noses in it and say they were right all along as these types of threads prove which is also a reason the forum is deteriorating. Maybe deteriorating is too strong a word but it certainly does bring conflict because BOTH sets of groups are as bad as each other.
 

Wumminator

The Qatar Pounder
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
22,933
Location
Obertans #1 fan.
The forum deteriorated because right from the start with Ole, people were prepared to stick by him however much of a shit show he put on because it was Ole. It almost become an obsession with some. People definitely wouldn't of been as charitable towards the manager if it was someone else.

Now things seem to be on the up (relatively speaking) it's as if people who supported Ole from the get go want to rub peoples noses in it and say they were right all along as these types of threads prove which is also a reason the forum is deteriorating. Maybe deteriorating is too strong a word but it certainly does bring conflict because BOTH sets of groups are as bad as each other.
Yes. You are right. Clearly the forum deteriorated because of too much positivity. That clearly drove people away.
 

Random Task

WW Lynchpin
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
34,503
Location
Chester
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me exactly what being a true fan consists of.

That's what this discussion was originally about, no?
 

Random Task

WW Lynchpin
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
34,503
Location
Chester
He means that on RAWK moderators harshly clamp down on any sort of dissent from the official line. He wants the same system here, with him in charge of defining the aforementioned official line.

A lot of people are very much attracted to authoritarianism outside of politics, too.
RAWK proxy banned me years ago because my views on Liverpool as a club did not align with their own. I was displeased to say the least.

I thought they were a shitty club so why can't I say so?

Meh.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
12,555
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me exactly what being a true fan consists of.

That's what this discussion was originally about, no?
Supporting the club however you find fit.

The problem becomes when some fans think they are more of a fan because they don't agree with your opinion.
 

rotherham_red

Full Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
7,407
But when people don't share the same faith as you, and that's all this is, faith, you are have previously tried (like OP) to silence those people.

It's just another form of top-reddiness that is paraded as fact, when in reality its just your biased opinion. You constantly absolve the manager by blaming the board for his shortcomings. Is that level of criticism allowed? Because despite how you, WUMs or sammsky try and spin it, they are still the club so by your definition deserve your unwavering support.

While no one condones the name calling, those posters are in the absolute minority yet anyone who has doubts over Ole are immediately pigeon holed as knee-jerk reactionary millennials.
Silencing people? Get over yourself :lol: it's an internet fans forum ffs, not downtown Baghdad under Saddam! If you're getting pulled up on the inconsistencies of your arguments, it's not because we think you're saying a potentially dangerous point to our argument, it's because the arguments you are making aren't very good and can be dismantled, which is exactly what I'm doing and will continue to do in the future. If you don't like it and want to have an echo chamber, please feel free to block the offending posts and posters and you can continue to live in hope that the manager of the club you claim to 'support' fails. Not sure how that entails support, but you do you hun.

Again with the strawmans - I've given Ole criticism when it's due. Multiple times in fact (most recently after the CL exit), but unlike people who want Ole gone, I don't extrapolate one bad performance, or one bad result in to a cardinal sin and want him gone off the back of it. A serious question here, is your standard that we never lose or draw a game? Do you expect us to be perfect in every game? Because in this season of all seasons, that isn't going to to happen, and it never happens in any season. We've accrued the third most points in the period since Ole first took over a team that was floundering and in 6th place. Arteta and Lampard haven't gotten close to getting to that level of consistency in their comparative periods and neither has Rodgers who took over at a similar time at Leicester. Moreover, the progress has accelerated, rather than decelerated in the last year with our PPG being close to title contending (and that too, with a squad that is nowhere near fully formed). If you stand back and consider the season as a whole, rather than 3 or so games, or even just the last game, you can see the progress in black and white. So please tell me where you have the doubts beyond the surface level, asinine arguments of "patterns of play" etc, because honestly speaking, we were similarly focused on individual players and moments of magic towards the end under Fergie, but I never saw that tear the caf in half like this issue has done under Ole.

The other issue is the inconsistency of the arguments being made. It's gone from performances being decent but results being shit, to results being decent and performances being poor. Ole is literally the only manager I've seen where having a good big game record was a stick to beat him with, with people saying that "anyone would be able to do it with the players he has", if that was the case, why couldn't Jose and to a lesser extent LvG get close to him with predominantly the same set of players?

Also, another serious question and please answer truthfully, were you even lurking on here in that 2003-2006 period to say that what I saw was "just my opinion and not a fact" or are you again, just talking out of your arse? I make no bones about giving Ole extra credit but if I'm honest, he hasn't needed to dip into that credit line as yet because he's more than done his job well in the circumstances. Jose had a meltdown when he had the same window in 2019, for instance.

We are a young team who is still growing with 3, arguably 4, large gaping holes in the first XI - that's almost half the team right there. In what world are you expecting us to be where we currently are? I've always said it, and nothing I've seen has changed my mind - give Ole what he wants and needs to complete the squad and see where he ends up. In the interim period before he completes the squad, he needs to attain Top 4 every season, and as long as he does that, his job should be assured. If, at the end of that squad building process, he wins the title, great. Keep him on and continue to back him. If he doesn't then we can let him go and wish him all the best. Is any of that, in any way unreasonable to you and your sensibilities?
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
61,519
I am almost certain that some members of this forum would rather pack the team with homegrown players & finish top 6 then sign quality foreign players & win titles. They are absolutely obsessed with “the United way” which is really just the Busby way if we’re honest, which was more then half a century ago. People use the class of 92 to deflect that Fergie relied heavily on foreign signings for all of his title wins.
Busby lived at a time when the options of bringing players from outside the club were virtually non existent. Clubs weren't as rich, the FA wasn't very keen on foreign players taking British jobs and the EPL didn't pay enough for many players to bother leaving their country for it. Busby in himself was a revolutionist. He was a former City player who was managing United, who went on challenging the FA so that United could play in the European cup and had given the thumbs up of us signing Di Stefano. Ah and I almost forgot. He personally supported a group of cash strapped 'Johnny Foreigners' to set up the first Manchester United supporters club outside the UK. I am member of such supporters club.
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Messages
11,420
Location
Manchester
You ever been to OT @Wumminator ? Since you exemplify how it is to support the club would I be a real fan to suggest that we fix the roof? Or maybe find a way to install a screen & take the stadium into the 21st century? Or would it that take away from the sentiment & romance of the club?
 

RUCK4444

New Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
9,553
Location
$¥$¥$¥$¥$
You ever been to OT @Wumminator ? Since you exemplify how it is to support the club would I be a real fan to suggest that we fix the roof? Or maybe find a way to install a screen & take the stadium into the 21st century? Or would it that take away from the sentiment & romance of the club?
You don’t support a club for its stadium ffs.

But if I were Ed I would only take surveyor information on the project from a top red tbh.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

'Liverpool are a proper club'
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
10,664
The forum deteriorated because right from the start with Ole, people were prepared to stick by him however much of a shit show he put on because it was Ole. It almost become an obsession with some. People definitely wouldn't of been as charitable towards the manager if it was someone else.

Now things seem to be on the up (relatively speaking) it's as if people who supported Ole from the get go want to rub peoples noses in it and say they were right all along as these types of threads prove which is also a reason the forum is deteriorating. Maybe deteriorating is too strong a word but it certainly does bring conflict because BOTH sets of groups are as bad as each other.
That's just nonsense, most of the Ole in posts on this forum are logical. I have said since he came in that he isn't being judged as a legend, he's being judged as a Man Utd manager and amongst reasonable fans, he's done a brilliant job so far. You seem to be ignoring the absolutely awful team and atmosphere Ole inherited from the toxic one.
 

RUCK4444

New Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
9,553
Location
$¥$¥$¥$¥$
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me exactly what being a true fan consists of.

That's what this discussion was originally about, no?
Basically in a nutshell it’s about supporting your club through thick and thin.

Not being a weak b*tch and moaning all day every day on a forum because we aren’t winning the league in total ignorance of the fact we dropped in quality MASSIVELY since SAF left and that it will take time to get back there, in the most competitive league in the world with the two best managers in the world directly above us.

It’s not about ignoring CLEAR signs of progress under Ole through pure snobbish mentality, because your mate in the pub winds you up calling him useless and out of his depth.

It’s about having a bit of a backbone, like our away fans who sing not only when we are winning.
 

Wumminator

The Qatar Pounder
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
22,933
Location
Obertans #1 fan.
You ever been to OT @Wumminator ? Since you exemplify how it is to support the club would I be a real fan to suggest that we fix the roof? Or maybe find a way to install a screen & take the stadium into the 21st century? Or would it that take away from the sentiment & romance of the club?
I genuinely couldn’t give a shit about a large screen tv at Old Trafford.
 

Wumminator

The Qatar Pounder
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
22,933
Location
Obertans #1 fan.
Basically in a nutshell it’s about supporting your club through thick and thin.

Not being a weak b*tch and moaning all day every day on a forum because we aren’t winning the league in total ignorance of the fact we dropped in quality MASSIVELY since SAF left and that it will take time to get back there, in the most competitive league in the world with the two best managers in the world directly above us.

It’s not about ignoring CLEAR signs of progress under Ole through pure snobbish mentality, because your mate in the pub winds you up calling him useless and out of his depth.

It’s about having a bit of a backbone, like our away fans who sing not only when we are winning.
Yeah I think this has been made clear numerous times in the thread.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

'Liverpool are a proper club'
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
10,664
Silencing people? Get over yourself :lol: it's an internet fans forum ffs, not downtown Baghdad under Saddam! If you're getting pulled up on the inconsistencies of your arguments, it's not because we think you're saying a potentially dangerous point to our argument, it's because the arguments you are making aren't very good and can be dismantled, which is exactly what I'm doing and will continue to do in the future. If you don't like it and want to have an echo chamber, please feel free to block the offending posts and posters and you can continue to live in hope that the manager of the club you claim to 'support' fails. Not sure how that entails support, but you do you hun.

Again with the strawmans - I've given Ole criticism when it's due. Multiple times in fact (most recently after the CL exit), but unlike people who want Ole gone, I don't extrapolate one bad performance, or one bad result in to a cardinal sin and want him gone off the back of it. A serious question here, is your standard that we never lose or draw a game? Do you expect us to be perfect in every game? Because in this season of all seasons, that isn't going to to happen, and it never happens in any season. We've accrued the third most points in the period since Ole first took over a team that was floundering and in 6th place. Arteta and Lampard haven't gotten close to getting to that level of consistency in their comparative periods and neither has Rodgers who took over at a similar time at Leicester. Moreover, the progress has accelerated, rather than decelerated in the last year with our PPG being close to title contending (and that too, with a squad that is nowhere near fully formed). If you stand back and consider the season as a whole, rather than 3 or so games, or even just the last game, you can see the progress in black and white. So please tell me where you have the doubts beyond the surface level, asinine arguments of "patterns of play" etc, because honestly speaking, we were similarly focused on individual players and moments of magic towards the end under Fergie, but I never saw that tear the caf in half like this issue has done under Ole.

The other issue is the inconsistency of the arguments being made. It's gone from performances being decent but results being shit, to results being decent and performances being poor. Ole is literally the only manager I've seen where having a good big game record was a stick to beat him with, with people saying that "anyone would be able to do it with the players he has", if that was the case, why couldn't Jose and to a lesser extent LvG get close to him with predominantly the same set of players?

Also, another serious question and please answer truthfully, were you even lurking on here in that 2003-2006 period to say that what I saw was "just my opinion and not a fact" or are you again, just talking out of your arse? I make no bones about giving Ole extra credit but if I'm honest, he hasn't needed to dip into that credit line as yet because he's more than done his job well in the circumstances. Jose had a meltdown when he had the same window in 2019, for instance.

We are a young team who is still growing with 3, arguably 4, large gaping holes in the first XI - that's almost half the team right there. In what world are you expecting us to be where we currently are? I've always said it, and nothing I've seen has changed my mind - give Ole what he wants and needs to complete the squad and see where he ends up. In the interim period before he completes the squad, he needs to attain Top 4 every season, and as long as he does that, his job should be assured. If, at the end of that squad building process, he wins the title, great. Keep him on and continue to back him. If he doesn't then we can let him go and wish him all the best. Is any of that, in any way unreasonable to you and your sensibilities?
Great post and that about summarises most of the feelings amongst the reasonable fans on this forum. Unfortunately, this sort of sensible rationale is drowned out all too frequently on these boards by miserable, moaning 'fans'.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

'Liverpool are a proper club'
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
10,664
Basically in a nutshell it’s about supporting your club through thick and thin.

Not being a weak b*tch and moaning all day every day on a forum because we aren’t winning the league in total ignorance of the fact we dropped in quality MASSIVELY since SAF left and that it will take time to get back there, in the most competitive league in the world with the two best managers in the world directly above us.

It’s not about ignoring CLEAR signs of progress under Ole through pure snobbish mentality, because your mate in the pub winds you up calling him useless and out of his depth.

It’s about having a bit of a backbone, like our away fans who sing not only when we are winning.
Another good post, agreed.
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
61,519
Firstly I don't think the majority of RedCafe contribute any money beyond the TV subscription that they would pay for anyway. This has never felt like a site that is heavy with season ticket holders, and that's fine. United are a global club and this is a global forum, but this 'good money' argument doesn't hold water really.

With regards to the entertainment factor, I think that this is one of the biggest dividers amongst our fanbase. What needs to be happen for fans to be entertained? Is it only titles and crushing victories that qualify? The line on this is different for everyone and that is what causes so much of the toxicity we see here. Its where the arguments come in about what a true supporter should be. Sure, people can support a club any way they like, who gives a shit, but you seem to be the type of fan I would liken to a middle aged guy trapped in a failed marriage. He loved her dearly once upon a time, she was everything he wanted her to be, but those days are gone and he's stuck with her.
Back when I was old enough to understand what supporting a club means, the Serie A was the richest league by far. AC Milan had the best squad at the time and in my opinion the best squad ever assembled. They had the likes of Baresi and Maldini at the back while we had Brucey and Pally. The difference in terms of quality was quite striking. Not only that, I used to spend summers shitting in my pants at the prospect of Italian clubs coming knocking at our door to poach our players. United might be the big spenders now but back in the day we couldn't even afford matching Batistuta's salary at Fiorentina. So if success was everything then I would have supported them. Take Juventus as an example. They had been dominating football for frigging 6 consecutive decades by now. You can bet your house that those bastards will be dominating their league for the next 6 decades.

So no, success is not everything. A dip in form can and will happen. However that doesn't mean allowing people to take United on a massive ride. United is a giant, we've got the fans, we've got the money and we've got a great academy. We shouldn't be anywhere near to were we are now. Bad decisions are taken on a yearly basis and money get thrown to the bin. That pisses me off big time for two reasons. First of all because if Sir Alex was allowed to tap on that wealth then we would have won double the CLs we won. Secondly because I hate people taking my club for a ride and the very people I love ie the fans. However there's a thing that pisses me off more then that and these are the fans who agree with all that. I can't stand people who excuse the club's cock ups at every opportunity or feel sorry for poor JLingz whose been stealing a living at this club. That irks me big time.

Regarding why I support United, well, the reality is that its directly linked to the very thing that pisses me off. We've got a great club with great people around and great fans. I was lucky to meet many United players all of which were so down to earth that you think that there your mates. Fans are pretty much the same. I assure you its not like that at other clubs. Juventus for example are an A Class arsehole club from top to bottom. Its feckin full Corpo Cyberpunk there. So I absolutely hate people taking the mick out of these genuine people who worry that the player who had been taking them for a ride for 5 years might have issues or the player who will soon be entitled to a testimonial game after a career of doing feck all might end up without a job if we ever show our back to him. They don't deserve that.

Oh well, rant over
 

El Jefe

Full Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2012
Messages
4,855
I find it funny when I hear fans talk about how toxic it is on here. In real life, I have conversations with Manutd fans and some of them are even more negative than posters on here. The match day thread can be toxic but you're not meant to take that too serious, imagine 70,000 fans in OT typing their live reaction during the game at the same time, that's all that is.

Twitter is the place that has the worst 'fans', the Instagram meme pages aren't much better but the sort of unfiltered carnage seen there isn't even remotely replicated here.

Posters here have strong opinions on both sides of the fence and with a manager like Ole that fluctuates from brilliant to woeful fairly often, its natural that there is such a divide on the caf right now.
 

Maluco

Last Man Standing 3 champion 2019/20
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
5,765
It’s clearly a WUM and a LOT have been sucked in.

The OP actively started threads and contributed to the negativity surrounding the last manager. It doesn’t really matter what your perceived reasoning was.

It can only be a WUM with that in mind. I don’t think it’s worth the 9 page argument.