It's in our hands (or not?)

[Riz]

I honestly don’t understand how you can explain it any clearer? I’ll give it a go.

So it’s important to ascertain what “in your hands” means. Google defines it as “in ones control or influence; in ones possession. You’re the boss now the decision is in your hands.” so safe to say it means that it is something in you are in complete control of. Do we all understand this? When it’s in your hands it means it is something that you can influence and no one else no matter what they do can change it.

United win 6/6, need to out score Leicester, they cannot control how many goals Leicester score therefore it isn’t in their hands as such, as Leicester could win the rest of their games 5-0 in theory (I understand why people are saying well they would know in the last game so they would just need to score x, except x could be an unrealistic score line that isn’t achievable).

When you have to rely on another team to do something you’re no longer in control of your own destiny, and before anyone says “yeah but this team plays x, y, and z and they’re harder” that isn’t the point! It’s the fact that it’s up to them to win and it’s... in their hands.

No matter how you spin it, United HAVE to do better than Chelsea and/or Leicester, and united CANNOT control their performances up until they play leicester.

We don't have to control how many goals Leicester score in their other games.

We don't have to rely on Leicester to do something we're not in control of.

It doesn't matter how unrealistic the final target may be going into the last game, we could have a target of 11-0. That match would still be one that we directly influence.

 

[Eugenius]

Here's a philosophical question:

If we win all our games and score enough goals we come fourth - therefore it's in our hands.

But if Leicester win all their games, they also come fourth. Therefore it's also in their hands.

If it's in their hands can it also be in our hands also?

 

[SirAnderson]

Give over man he just doesn't want to understand .

What is there to understand other than a clear definition of an IDIOM.
We can't change the meaning of an idiom to suit what we want to say.

 

[Berbasbullet]

We don't have to control how many goals Leicester score in their other games.

We don't have to rely on Leicester to do something we're not in control of.

It doesn't matter how unrealistic the final target may be going into the last game, we could have a target of 11-0. That match would still be one that we directly influence.

Answer the second part of my last post. Post 6 United results and the I’ll see if I can make it so United drop out the top 4. Since you said it was impossible it should be easy enough.

 

[SirAnderson]

We don't have to control how many goals Leicester score in their other games.

We don't have to rely on Leicester to do something we're not in control of.

It doesn't matter how unrealistic the final target may be going into the last game, we could have a target of 11-0. That match would still be one that we directly influence.

We don't have to control it because WE CAN'T. And there in lies the definition of "in your hands"

We you are the CEO, the final and ultimate decision is yours, no matter what others may suggest or do, if you have the final say, that is the meaning of the idiom "in your hands".

 

[Riz]

So in your opinion if we needed to win 11-0 the game would be in uniteds hands?

Also the second point is untrue and we can trial it if you like? Go on draft uniteds last 6 results for me....

Great let's do it and then we can settle the argument. You draft the Leicester results and I draft the United ones.

Since we play them last match of the season we will be going into that match knowing what the GD target is to achieve.

For arguments sake, I draft 1-0 for every United match up until that point.

Now you draft the Leicester results up until that match. Then I'll draft the final match as that includes United.

Go...

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Right this is how I actually see it:

• Leicester and Chelsea sit 3 and 2 points above us. If they win all their games (however unlikely that may be) they are getting top 4.
• This fact alone takes it out of our hands in the true sense of the word. We are relying on them not winning all their remaining games to have a chance at top 4 because we still have to beat Leicester in this scenario. So it's Leicester and Chelsea's to lose.

But wait I hear you cry, we could beat Leicester on the final day by 5 goals

• We could also draw or lose. Or win by 4 goals. This does not prove we are in control. As the same argument could be made that Leicester could beat us or have increased the GD margin. If the other team has to meet certain conditions (conceding 5 goals) for us to finish above them, then it is not in our hands.
• If you then try to argue we could make it up in other games however likely this may be the same could be said of Leicester potentially increasing their lead. And if they are winning games the GD always increases by at least 1. As would ours for each win minimum.

In the truest sense of the definition it cannot be in our hands as we are reliant on other teams performing worse than us. If we had one more point (53) then I would absolutely agree it is then in our hands. As all that would be required to guarantee top 4 would be to win all our games. There would be nothing any side could do to surpass us (apart from Wolves outscoring but they would then be in the same position we are now).

So honestly and seriously no, we do not have it in our hands. Anyone who believes we do doesn't understand the basics of language and the mathematics behind our position.

 

[SirAnderson]

Here's a philosophical question:

If we win all our games and score enough goals we come fourth - therefore it's in our hands.

But if Leicester win all their games, they also come fourth. Therefore it's also in their hands.

If it's in their hands can it also be in our hands also?

This is the point. Technically, it is in all of our hands, but by pure definition, it is not.
And that first point, is still dependent on HOW much we win Leicester by...which again, misses the definition of "in our hands".

 

[SirAnderson]

Right this is how I actually see it:

• Leicester and Chelsea sit 3 and 2 points above us. If they win all their games (however unlikely that may be) they are getting top 4.
• This fact alone takes it out of our hands in the true sense of the word. We are relying on them not winning all their remaining games to have a chance at top 4 because we still have to beat Leicester in this scenario. So it's Leicester and Chelsea's to lose.

But wait I hear you cry, we could beat Leicester on the final day by 5 goals

• We could also draw or lose. Or win by 4 goals. This does not prove we are in control. As the same argument could be made that Leicester could beat us or have increased the GD margin. If the other team has to meet certain conditions (conceding 5 goals) for us to finish above them, then it is not in our hands.
• If you then try to argue we could make it up in other games however likely this may be the same could be said of Leicester potentially increasing their lead. And if they are winning games the GD always increases by at least 1. As would ours for each win minimum.

In the truest sense of the definition it cannot be in our hands as we are reliant on other teams performing worse than us. If we had one more point (53) then I would absolutely agree it is then in our hands. As all that would be required to guarantee top 4 would be to win all our games. There would be nothing any side could do to surpass us (apart from Wolves outscoring but they would then be in the same position we are now).

So honestly and seriously no, we do not have it in our hands. Anyone who believes we do doesn't understand the basics of language and the mathematics behind our position.

Dude, it's what I've been trying to explain since the "in our hands" party arrived in the top 4 race thread. It's crazy.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Great let's do it and then we can settle the argument. You draft the Leicester results and I draft the United ones.

Since we play them last match of the season we will be going into that match knowing what the GD target is to achieve.

For arguments sake, I draft 1-0 for every United match up until that point.

Now you draft the Leicester results up until that match. Then I'll draft the final match as that includes United.

Go...

No no you draft the last result too... go ahead.

this is pointless as we’re both being dishonest.

 

[saivet]

It's in our hands, just as it's in Wolves, Chelsea and Leicester hands but some just have better hands than others.

On the final day, even if we had to beat Leicester 10-0 to get 4th, it's not completely out of our hands as there is not a limit on how many goals we can win by, it would just be extremely unlikely.

We know for certain that even if Leicester win their games, we can leapfrog them on the final day by winning our games and beating them by the required margin. Ultimately, it's in our hands, but that may not be worth much.

 

[Berbasbullet]

It's in our hands, just as it's in Wolves, Chelsea and Leicester hands but some just have better hands than others.

On the final day, even if we had to beat Leicester 10-0 to get 4th, it's not completely out of our hands as there is not a limit on how many goals we can win by, it would just be extremely unlikely.

We know for certain that even if Leicester win their games, we can leapfrog them on the final day by winning our games and beating them by the required margin.

This!

 

[Riz]

No no you draft the last result too... go ahead.

this is pointless as we’re both being dishonest.

Why would I draft the last result without knowing the full picture after 37 games played?

When we kick off that match we will know the league table after 37 games.

 

[SirAnderson]

Right this is how I actually see it:

• Leicester and Chelsea sit 3 and 2 points above us. If they win all their games (however unlikely that may be) they are getting top 4.
• This fact alone takes it out of our hands in the true sense of the word. We are relying on them not winning all their remaining games to have a chance at top 4 because we still have to beat Leicester in this scenario. So it's Leicester and Chelsea's to lose.

But wait I hear you cry, we could beat Leicester on the final day by 5 goals

• We could also draw or lose. Or win by 4 goals. This does not prove we are in control. As the same argument could be made that Leicester could beat us or have increased the GD margin. If the other team has to meet certain conditions (conceding 5 goals) for us to finish above them, then it is not in our hands.
• If you then try to argue we could make it up in other games however likely this may be the same could be said of Leicester potentially increasing their lead. And if they are winning games the GD always increases by at least 1. As would ours for each win minimum.

In the truest sense of the definition it cannot be in our hands as we are reliant on other teams performing worse than us. If we had one more point (53) then I would absolutely agree it is then in our hands. As all that would be required to guarantee top 4 would be to win all our games. There would be nothing any side could do to surpass us (apart from Wolves outscoring but they would then be in the same position we are now).

So honestly and seriously no, we do not have it in our hands. Anyone who believes we do doesn't understand the basics of language and the mathematics behind our position.

This needs to be pinned as the first post. How anyone can't see it is beyond me and like you say, doesn't understand the English phrase "in your hands".

 

[Berbasbullet]

Why would I draft the last result without knowing the full picture after 37 games played?

When we kick off that match we will know the league table after 37 games.

Well exactly, so you can just be like “united win 58-0 and are in Europe” pointless discussion tbh and I shouldn’t have pressed you on it, tbf I misread it slightly so I am in the wrong.

 

[SirAnderson]

What you guys are doing is pointless @Riz @Berbasbullet
You are not looking at a definition of the phrase, but playing out a scenario. You also applying it to a series of results rather than at the current position (which is what started this entire thing when people claimed it in the top 4 race thread) both teams find themselves in, and that phrase suits Leicester more than it doesn't us. End of.

 

[Berbasbullet]

What you guys are doing is pointless @Riz @Berbasbullet
You are not looking at a definition of the phrase, but playing out a scenario. You also applying it to a series of results rather than at the current position (which is what started this entire thing when people claimed it in the top 4 race thread) both teams find themselves in, and that phrase suits Leicester more than it doesn't us. End of.

Yep, agreed.

 

[SirAnderson]

I need to go fetch my kids, and its not in my hands, cause a whole host of things can happen before I get there.
Peace out, it's in your hands now.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Right this is how I actually see it:

• Leicester and Chelsea sit 3 and 2 points above us. If they win all their games (however unlikely that may be) they are getting top 4.
• This fact alone takes it out of our hands in the true sense of the word. We are relying on them not winning all their remaining games to have a chance at top 4 because we still have to beat Leicester in this scenario. So it's Leicester and Chelsea's to lose.

But wait I hear you cry, we could beat Leicester on the final day by 5 goals

• We could also draw or lose. Or win by 4 goals. This does not prove we are in control. As the same argument could be made that Leicester could beat us or have increased the GD margin. If the other team has to meet certain conditions (conceding 5 goals) for us to finish above them, then it is not in our hands.
• If you then try to argue we could make it up in other games however likely this may be the same could be said of Leicester potentially increasing their lead. And if they are winning games the GD always increases by at least 1. As would ours for each win minimum.

In the truest sense of the definition it cannot be in our hands as we are reliant on other teams performing worse than us. If we had one more point (53) then I would absolutely agree it is then in our hands. As all that would be required to guarantee top 4 would be to win all our games. There would be nothing any side could do to surpass us (apart from Wolves outscoring but they would then be in the same position we are now).

So honestly and seriously no, we do not have it in our hands. Anyone who believes we do doesn't understand the basics of language and the mathematics behind our position.

The best post on the matter.

 

[Lynty]

When we play Bournemouth this weekend: is victory in our hands or their hands?

 

[Berbasbullet]

When we play Bournemouth this weekend: is victory in our hands or their hands?

Both!

 

[romufc]

All this about not being in our hands. As it stands it is 100% in our hands.

"If two or more clubs finish level in the table when competing for the title or European qualification, or when relegation is at stake, their records in the head-to-head matches will now be used to separate them"

https://www.premierleague.com/news/1262217

The rules have been changed. We beat Leicester 1-0 at home so as long as we do not lose to them, if we finish on the same points, we will finish above them.

This goes with Chelsea and Wolves too as we have the better of the head to heads against all 3 teams.

 

[Berbasbullet]

All this about not being in our hands. As it stands it is 100% in our hands.

"If two or more clubs finish level in the table when competing for the title or European qualification, or when relegation is at stake, their records in the head-to-head matches will now be used to separate them"

https://www.premierleague.com/news/1262217

The rules have been changed. We beat Leicester 1-0 at home so as long as we do not lose to them, if we finish on the same points, we will finish above them.

This goes with Chelsea and Wolves too as we have the better of the head to heads against all 3 teams.

The third time someone has posted this, I believe this applies if the clubs are level on GD dude.

 

[SirAnderson]

When we play Bournemouth this weekend: is victory in our hands or their hands?

Now you can go into variables, but technically its in either hands, but that's why we have things like favorites and odds and form etc.
It's not really a situation this phrase applies best. More like, we are favorites to win it, and maybe in that sense, it is in our hands...having the better variables. Once you go into that sense, then anyone can again argue that since we are "better" than Leicester, it is in our hands, but in the true sense of the word it isn't. In variables, it is and can be.

 

[romufc]

The third time someone has posted this, I believe this applies if the clubs are level on GD dude.

Ooops fair enough. Thanks.

 

[SirAnderson]

All this about not being in our hands. As it stands it is 100% in our hands.

"If two or more clubs finish level in the table when competing for the title or European qualification, or when relegation is at stake, their records in the head-to-head matches will now be used to separate them"

https://www.premierleague.com/news/1262217

The rules have been changed. We beat Leicester 1-0 at home so as long as we do not lose to them, if we finish on the same points, we will finish above them.

This goes with Chelsea and Wolves too as we have the better of the head to heads against all 3 teams.

Sorry please, just no. The rules haven't change. This was already posted in the Top 4 thread and cleared.

 

[Riz]

Right this is how I actually see it:

• Leicester and Chelsea sit 3 and 2 points above us. If they win all their games (however unlikely that may be) they are getting top 4.
• This fact alone takes it out of our hands in the true sense of the word. We are relying on them not winning all their remaining games to have a chance at top 4 because we still have to beat Leicester in this scenario. So it's Leicester and Chelsea's to lose.

But wait I hear you cry, we could beat Leicester on the final day by 5 goals

• We could also draw or lose. Or win by 4 goals. This does not prove we are in control. As the same argument could be made that Leicester could beat us or have increased the GD margin. If the other team has to meet certain conditions (conceding 5 goals) for us to finish above them, then it is not in our hands.
• If you then try to argue we could make it up in other games however likely this may be the same could be said of Leicester potentially increasing their lead. And if they are winning games the GD always increases by at least 1. As would ours for each win minimum.

In the truest sense of the definition it cannot be in our hands as we are reliant on other teams performing worse than us. If we had one more point (53) then I would absolutely agree it is then in our hands. As all that would be required to guarantee top 4 would be to win all our games. There would be nothing any side could do to surpass us (apart from Wolves outscoring but they would then be in the same position we are now).

So honestly and seriously no, we do not have it in our hands. Anyone who believes we do doesn't understand the basics of language and the mathematics behind our position.

It's the last part of you're post that I would tweak.

All we are required to do to secure top 4 is win all our games and win the last game by a margin of X/2 +1. (X being the GD between us and Leicester at kick off).

Because those 2 things are technically in our direct control (no matter how unrealistic), it is technically in our hands.

(I am not disagreeing that it is also in Leicester's and Chelsea's hands)

 

[BenitoSTARR]

@Berbasbullet @Riz everyone knows whatever results you post the other will just say 'Ahh but United could score X against Leicester and win' so it's a pointless argument.

Because let's say Leicester win 4-0 for 5 games and United 1-0 for 5 games.
Leicester 70 Points GD 49
United 67 Points GD 25

Would you honestly say realistically United would swing a 24 goal difference by winning 12-0?

So you can both create scenarios that would make the other look stupid to suggest a counter point to.

It's Leicester's to lose not ours to win. Therefore it's in their hands.

 

[SirAnderson]

It's the last part of you're post that I would tweak.

All we are required to do to secure top 4 is win all our games and win the last game by a margin of X/2 +1. (X being the GD between us and Leicester at kick off).

Because those 2 things are technically in our direct control (no matter how unrealistic), it is technically in our hands.

(I am not disagreeing that it is also in Leicester's and Chelsea's hands)

Thank you.
By acknowledge that, can you at least acknowledge it is more in their hands than it is in ours??
Cause as mentioned, we have additional requires to get our top 4. They have less.

 

[SirAnderson]

Hopefully the OP can update his OP

 

[romufc]

@Berbasbullet @Riz everyone knows whatever results you post the other will just say 'Ahh but United could score X against Leicester and win' so it's a pointless argument.

Because let's say Leicester win 4-0 for 5 games and United 1-0 for 5 games.
Leicester 70 Points GD 49
United 67 Points GD 25

Would you honestly say realistically United would swing a 24 goal difference by winning 12-0?

So you can both create scenarios that would make the other look stupid to suggest a counter point to.

It's Leicester's to lose not ours to win. Therefore it's in their hands.

After my disastrous last post where I have been corrected, I agree with this.

Luckily Leicester have harder fixtures than us as they still have to play Arsenal and Spurs.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

It's the last part of you're post that I would tweak.

All we are required to do to secure top 4 is win all our games and win the last game by a margin of X/2 +1. (X being the GD between us and Leicester at kick off).

Because those 2 things are technically in our direct control (no matter how unrealistic), it is technically in our hands.

(I am not disagreeing that it is also in Leicester's and Chelsea's hands)

You didn't read my post.

If we had one more point (53) then it would be in our hands as we could win all our games and regardless of other results we would be in the top 4.

As it stands we rely on other teams performing worse than us.

I love the trolling you're doing btw

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Now for the fun bit. Realistically it's in our hands! Anyone who thinks United don't have an incredible chance at top 4 doesn't understand football and maths!

I mean come on guys look at the fixture list, we'd be kicking ourselves if we didn't get top 4.

#Inourhands

 

[Berbasbullet]

Now for the fun bit. Realistically it's in our hands! Anyone who thinks United don't have an incredible chance at top 4 doesn't understand football and maths!

I mean come on guys look at the fixture list, we'd be kicking ourselves if we didn't get top 4.

#Inourhands

 

[Gazza]

Stupida feckin' game

 

[Riz]

Thank you.
By acknowledge that, can you at least acknowledge it is more in their hands than it is in ours??
Cause as mentioned, we have additional requires to get our top 4. They have less.

Absolutely, I stated in my original post that it is also in Chelsea and Leicester's.

Hopefully the OP can update his OP

To say what? I already said it was also in Leicester and Chelsea's

 

[SirAnderson]

Now for the fun bit. Realistically it's in our hands! Anyone who thinks United don't have an incredible chance at top 4 doesn't understand football and maths!

I mean come on guys look at the fixture list, we'd be kicking ourselves if we didn't get top 4.

#Inourhands

That I can get behind!
Leicester will feck it up.

 

[SirAnderson]

Absolutely, I stated in my original post that it is also in Chelsea and Leicester's.

To say what? I already said it was also in Leicester and Chelsea's

That technically it is in their hands and not ours.
But realistically, it is in our hands for the many variables we have at our advantage.

All I was arguing this whole time was the proper use of the phrase "in our hands"

 

[Riz]

You didn't read my post.

If we had one more point (53) then it would be in our hands as we could win all our games and regardless of other results we would be in the top 4.

As it stands we rely on other teams performing worse than us.

I love the trolling you're doing btw

I'm not trolling, I don't see how anyone can object to the fact that it is in our hands.

It depends what you mean by "rely"? I would only use that word in the context of this discussion for games that we do not influence. In the final game vs Leicester we are not "relying" on them to do something badly, we directly influence the outcome of that match.

I'm trying to think of other ways to describe it, maybe this... What has changed from before last nights results and today? Before the game vs Everton it didn't matter what we did in our remaining games as Leicester could have been out of sight by the time we played them regardless of what we did (out of our hands). But now by the time we play them (even if they win all their games) we will be able to overtake them on the last day if we win all our games.

 

[Berbasbullet]

I'm not trolling, I don't see how anyone can object to the fact that it is in our hands.

It depends what you mean by "rely"? I would only use that word in the context of this discussion for games that we do not influence. In the final game vs Leicester we are not "relying" on them to do something badly, we directly influence the outcome of that match.

I'm trying to think of other ways to describe it, maybe this... What has changed from before last nights results and today? Before the game vs Everton it didn't matter what we did in our remaining games as Leicester could have been out of sight by the time we played them regardless of what we did (out of our hands). But now by the time we play them (even if they win all their games) we will be able to overtake them on the last day if we win all our games.

But realistically they will be ahead on points and GD so it’s more in their hands than ours.