It's not the manager, it's the players

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by haram, Apr 3, 2019.

  1. Apr 3, 2019
    #1

    haram New Member

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    Defence

    The build up is fecking SHIT. People need to stop ignoring this. Yes it does fecking matter and yes it is that important. The simple minor things like body positioning when receiving the ball or simply being open to a pass. The confidence to take the ball under pressure. The composure to deal with a pressing forward. People cry about Young hoofing the ball but this is just another example of SHIT build up. No manager will succeed at the top level like this, it simply will not happen.

    Transitions

    Again, TERRIBLE. Most of the defenders do not help at all. The only players who can transition from deep is Pogba and Shaw. Only Pogba does it at a high level. This is why Pogba is needed in deeper areas. He can hold the ball under pressure, and burst into midfield. Lindelof can attempt to play passes but it only makes it more difficult with him playing on the left. Smalling and Bailly will always push him into LCB. Smalling said he prefers to play with Lindelof because when Chris partners Eric he has to play on the left which makes him even more uncomfortable.

    Build up and transitions are the first two phases of ATTACK. It isn't about just throwing bodies forward. We actually have to get it into the final phase. This is the foundation and base of the team and it is fecking terrible.

    Width

    We have ZERO wingers. Sanchez, Rashford and Martial are all forwards. Mata and Lingard are number 10's. This is compounded by the fact that are fullbacks are not good enough going forward. Shaw's final delivery is NOT good enough despite his quality in the first two phases. Having a winger which can operate across the whole line, that means LB, LWB, LM, LW & LF positions (also on the right hand side) is vital to build up, transition and creativity in the final third. A wide man transitioning from deep areas is NOT defensive. A wide man with high work rate is NOT defensive. The delivery and crosses are SHITE. The best crosser we have is fecking Lukaku who should be at the end of crosses.

    You cannot attack properly if you do not have the base right, that starts in the defensive and deep phases. You can skip build up and transition by pressing high up the pitch or playing a long ball.

    There is a call for us to throw bodies forward and press. If we are to manage a high intensity game throughout a whole season we have to retain ball possession at a rate closer to 60-70% , so that we don't tire and fatigue. How can we do this with our current defenders and the manner in which they handle the ball in the deepest areas? It is not possible. It simply isn't. I hope people do not turn on Ole, there is only so much he can do.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
  2. Apr 3, 2019
    #2

    Zlatattack Full Member

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    Very well said.
  3. Apr 3, 2019
    #3

    charlenefan Far less insightful than the other Charley

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    Isn't it on the manager to coach the players to do all you've just said?

    Granted you can only do so much with limited players
  4. Apr 3, 2019
    #4

    El-Manos Full Member

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    Hard to disagree with any of it. It’s a disgrace that our squad needs a complete revamp despite all the money we spent. A right back, right winger and ball playing centre back have to be our priorities for this summer.
  5. Apr 3, 2019
    #5

    haram New Member

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    The players are limited. You can say perhaps someone like Shaw can develop his play in the final third but there is only so far he will develop. It doesn't erase the fact that we need better width, it doesn't matter how much Shaw improves in that department, he needs help from the other players who find themselves in wide areas.
  6. Apr 3, 2019
    #6

    dwd Saturday Night Spies

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    I feel like we're on a merry-go-round of threads which each manager we have. I don't know who it is on anymore, I think it could be everyone just not being good enough, club officials, management and players.
  7. Apr 3, 2019
    #7

    NoLogo Full Member

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    Well said OP. We also need to bring in players with the right attitude. You know defenders and midfielders who want to win every free ball. Players who are willing to help each other, consistently make runs in behind or drop deep, you know the basic staff that opens up space, we have been so static for years now and I thought we had improved in that regard in the last two months but now we are again back in the static phase where everyone just stays in their position and it's too easy to defend.
  8. Apr 3, 2019
    #8

    Paul_Scholes18 Full Member

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    One of our biggest problem post SAF is that we spend far too much on wages and transfers. It makes it hard to bring in enough players to cover that some of them might not work out. Also we don't seem to find too many good cheaper players. Dalot is probably the only one.
    Players and agents mainly wanting money seem to use/join us and not have the right mentality to learn and improve. '

    We have higher wages than City and I am sure we will agree that we are not getting the most out of it.
  9. Apr 3, 2019
    #9

    Janson Full Member

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    I've been saying it for years. I don't even put too much stock in managers really. If you have top players, you are gonna be a top team. Especially if they are experienced players. Look at Chelsea with Grant. Of course a manager can make a difference, but I don't think it's as big as people think. I find it strange how some seriously thought we were suddenly gonna become title contenders only with a managerial change.
  10. Apr 3, 2019
    #10

    TsuWave Full Member

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    we already at the “the manager’s without fault” stage?

    oh my. this is gonna be a crazy ride.
  11. Apr 3, 2019
    #11

    Red_toad Full Member

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    Oh look yet another pointless moaning thread after a defeat :yawn: great....
  12. Apr 3, 2019
    #12

    haram New Member

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    Keep your head in the sand. This is not about one defeat, this has been the case since SAF retired and that ageing squad broke up.
  13. Apr 3, 2019
    #13

    Adamsk7 Full Member

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    Well said and completely true. Our squad is full of average players and it is pretty disgraceful.

    Some blame does lie with the manager, though. Jones, Smalling and Young have all signed new deals and these are the sort of players we need to improve on, that does not bode well.
    Lindelof is comfortably our best defender and we saw last night that when moved to his best position on the right side of defence, he is so much more comfortable bringing the ball out and doing what he does best (although to be fair, he’s better in possession on the left than our other defenders), therefore he should play there regardless of Smalling. We should play players in their natural positions!!

    Ole has a LOT of work to do in the summer.
  14. Apr 3, 2019
    #14

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    Right now it's the players because he's essentially managing Mourinho's United. Once he has a window under his belt he has to show what his Manchester United are all about.

    And with regards to attacking football, it's a combination of manager and player. Despite the players adapting to the methods a manager can definitely inculcate his methods that may take a year or so to bear fruit but are visibly being put into practice. So I do think it's possible for us play attacking football even with Mourinho's United although Ole of course has to manage short term results too.

    Next season, hopefully we see a very attacking and cohesive United team
  15. Apr 3, 2019
    #15

    AshRK Full Member

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    Ole mist be ruthless if he has to be a success here but for him to be ruthless the board needs to be ruthless. We have been saying since van gaal left that we have many deadwoods and here we are and still have deadwoods. I would not say this squad is crap but this squad is only good enough to finish 4th or 5th. Too many inconsistent players. Ole needs to be backed and we must sell players so that those deadwoods don't again block places.
  16. Apr 3, 2019
    #16

    haram New Member

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    There is a big difference between attacking football and winning attacking football.
  17. Apr 3, 2019
    #17

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    Yeah like Liverpool last season were attacking football without winning. We were like that early on under Ole but of late it's not been attacking either let alone winning attacking football.

    But it's fine. We've been decimated by injuries for awhile too. He's had to mop up a mess left behind. Needs time as he's just arrived. Interested to see what profile of players he signs this summer and who he gets rid of.
  18. Apr 3, 2019
    #18

    Red_toad Full Member

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    Oh look at tried and tested phrase, that's the way champ.

    Thread is pointless, plenty of other negative boring tosh threads on here, why need to add to them. It's very tedious that they all coincide with a loss of points.
    I'm very happy with now have a manger who constantly stands by his players and is very positive about them. Shame a lot of fans are still in the Jose rut.
    If you're saying it's since Sir Alex left, then go to one of the numerous Glazer threads, as they're the constant in the whole thing.
  19. Apr 3, 2019
    #19

    deadrevelz New Member

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    I agree with most the OP, except about Luke Shaw who has improved a lot this season, especially since Ole came in. His attacking play is getting better every game. Even last night he was making more runs, attempting dribbles, usually successfully. I'm optimistic he will have a great next season.

    When the 19/20 season is finished then we will have a clear idea of Ole's abilities. Unless of course the club don't back him, in which case we're back to square one, fighting about who is to blame.
  20. Apr 3, 2019
    #20

    haram New Member

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    Liverpool now play with less intensity and also press less. We were decimated by injuries because we cannot handle that sort of intensity for 15 games let alone 50+.
  21. Apr 3, 2019
    #21

    Fosu-Mens Full Member

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    Mixture of lack of quality, stamina/fitness and technical ability.

    The way forward is high press and possessionoriented.
    Hard to accomplish this when you play with 2 out of 11 players fitting this type of football.
    Also difficult with players lacking off the ball movement both when in possession and when off possession.
  22. Apr 3, 2019
    #22

    haram New Member

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    Im not going to pretend as if the players are good enough, Ole can say what he likes in front of the media, I understand. Not just the Glazers either, Woodward as well.
  23. Apr 3, 2019
    #23

    Waynne New Member

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    When players like Young, Valencia, Jones and Sanchez are still at this club come.next season then I have no hope for this team or manager.
  24. Apr 3, 2019
    #24

    Sylar Full Member

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    For our losses recently, its been on the players. The loss to Arsenal and yesterday is on the players cos we created chances, and missed clear cut chances. And on top of that conceded due to individual mistakes (vs Arsenal, DDG + their penalty + yesterday, Fred + own goal).

    Id be ever more worried if we were not creating chances but the players are making mistakes. For defence, I know Smalling might be our best defender, but it does seem telling that we transitioned from defence to midfield/attack better when we had lindelof/Jones in our defence. Our midfield seemed to always go deeper with Smalling there to take it off him.

    We got injuries at the wrong times too in terms of Lingard, Herrera, Matic. However we also rushed them back too quickly when their replacements were doing more than good jobs. Matic vs Arsenal, and Herrera vs Wolves was too quick (added to Lingard vs Liverpool causing a further injury).
  25. Apr 3, 2019
    #25

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    I was talking about Livepool of last season. Regardless they still play attacking football just not to an absurd degree as they used to.

    If the only reason is the injuries and form, and we consistently play attacking football next season then great. But we've slowly made a definite shift toward more caution which started as our fixture list got harder. Not that I can complain. He's saved our season from completely being written off and given us plenty of excitement. As always he will constantly judged being Manchester United manager.
  26. Apr 3, 2019
    #26

    ArjenIsM3 Full Member

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    Every manager since SAF has had the same problems to a certain degree. Obviously it's the players.
  27. Apr 3, 2019
    #27

    Smashin Full Member

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    Here in Portugal we have a saying that if you get a government job you are set for life, it is pretty much impossible getting sacked despite how bad you are.

    And sadly, playing for United kinda feels like that, if you get signed you pretty much end up staying until the end of times, regardless of how you perform or not.
    Sometimes it is positive believing in the players but there has to be a middle ground, otherwise you end up with a bunch of overpayed squad players.
  28. Apr 3, 2019
    #28

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    At the end of the day, until a manager is allowed a summer to bring some players in, and at least 6-7 months to bed his tactics in, it's hard to blame him especially when all in all the results have been excellent albiet there's been a dip of late.
  29. Apr 3, 2019
    #29

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    Yes we are far too reluctant in moving players who aren't performing. It's as if we're hoping for that day when they'll magically become the players we expected them to.

    I'd seriously considering the futures of

    Young
    Jones (lol)
    Rojo
    Periera
    Mata
    Lukaku
    Fred

    We need players with technical quality, intelligence and energy. Enough of filling spaces with technical deficient players and the dreaming of dominating possession.
  30. Apr 3, 2019
    #30

    PlayerOne Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid

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    Thing is, we don't know if Ole really rates them or not. He could rate them for we know and it's just not playing it up for the media, after all those players went on that great run of wins and got him the job. That's the thing, we're going into the unknown this summer under Ole. My hope is that he shows his ruthless side and we get a long overdue revamp.
  31. Apr 3, 2019
    #31

    NinjaFletch Full Member

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    Agreed, but people get so fixated on getting the manager out that everyone suddenly seems to get amnesia when the problems repeat themselves rather than admit that the manager wasn't the sole issue.

    We need changes at almost every level of the club. The managerial position was one of them, but it was only the start.
  32. Apr 3, 2019
    #32

    2 man midfield Incestuous Modern Woman (Dumper!)

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    I said this a lot when Jose was failing with us, and looked pretty foolish when Ole was steamrollering sides for a couple months. But I think there is some truth in the fact that the players just aren’t good enough. This isn’t some pro-Jose thing either, he wasn’t the right fit for us either. But now we’ve got a manager who is, let’s get him some players that are actually good enough.
  33. Apr 3, 2019
    #33

    AndyJ1985 New Member

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    Until Ole gets sacked and we bring in a new manager who has a spell of good form, and then it's not the players who are shit, but the previous managers.

    Rinse, repeat. Welcome to United
  34. Apr 3, 2019
    #34

    laughtersassassin Full Member

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    You are correct. However for past managers this was a decent amount their own fault for not targeting the correct players.

    For Ole we need to get him like half a new starting XI just to not be a joke
  35. Apr 3, 2019
    #35

    el3mel Full Member

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    Manager doesn't hold a controller to control the players. There're no miracle workers. If the players are crap in basic passing, ball retention and building up from the back, whatever coaching they'll get, they'll never become good. People exaggerate manager's ability in developing the players or creating miracles.
  36. Apr 3, 2019
    #36

    RedSky likes to kick 10-year-olds Scout

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    That might be part of the problem. For me it has and always will have been the fact that our Squad is extremely lopsided with very little balance. I've been banging on about us getting a right winger since 2011, Shaw is a decent defensive LB but he isn't an attacking LB and that means when we're chasing games we don't have an attacking LB to bring on. Likewise with RB, Dalot seems to be more of an attacking player but we don't have a defensive RB. We only have Herrera as a midfielder who can tackle, we should have brought in a destroyer years ago. We're limited in our tactical choices because too many of our players are similar.

    It doesn't help that we also keep changing our playing style with every new Manager employed. This is one of the few criticisms I have with Woodward, we shouldn't just be signing any random Manager with a half decent CV, we should be trying to match up playing styles so we don't require a big transition each time.
  37. Apr 3, 2019
    #37

    el3mel Full Member

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    I guess you weren't moaning at all when we were losing under Mourinho then ?
  38. Apr 3, 2019
    #38

    Infra-red Full Member

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    Mourinho agrees. The problem (as he found out to his cost) is getting Woodward to agree.

    Hopefully Solskjaer has more luck.
  39. Apr 3, 2019
    #39

    Red_toad Full Member

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    More to the point, I wasn't creating pointless threads, that are already covered by numerous other existing threads.
  40. Apr 3, 2019
    #40

    el3mel Full Member

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    You were moaning or not ? This isn't an answer on my question.

    If you were moaning previously you don't have the right to accuse others for doing the same under the next manager because your stance is different. Pretty much an example of double standards.

    As for the thread being pointless, seems like everyone else who replied on it so far disagree, it's your problem only I guess.