It's not the manager, it's the players

Amadaeus

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Which should tell you how far behind our rivals we are in terms of the quality of the players and it’s no fault of Ole’s, I’ll put it down to the previous managers. Let’s watch him have a few transfer windows and a pre-season to build his own team to his image (thankfully there is no major international tournament this summer - well, apart from the African Cup of Nations).

I get your love for Pochettino but, dude, that ship has sailed, at least for now. Let’s get behind Ole now and hope he succeeds. There is absolutely NO guarantee Pochettino will come in and win trophies at United immediately.
How can we be that far when we are top of the table since ole got appointed and were second last season? I see it has a lot to do with not consistently getting the best out of these players, having a good philosophy and having a few weaknesses in our first eleven that needs to be addressed.
 

Flying high

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Of course it's the players. We have a totally broken squad. Whatever formation we play, there are huge weak links.

There is not one outfield position that we should be happy with. Too many of our players have a glaring flaw in their game. Whether that be pace, technique, intelligence, determination or simply not good enough.

At this point, it's easier to say who I would keep.

DeGea
Pogba
Rashford
Lindelof
Martial
Shaw
Dalot
Herrera
Romero
Smalling
McTominay
Fred
Lukaku
Lingard

That's 13 players. But honestly, only DDG Pogba and perhaps Lindelof and Shaw should be considered starting quality if we are aiming for the top. The likes of Martial, Rashford, McTominay and Dalot would benefit greatly from being eased into a much better team. They have all shown real potential, but we can't realistically expect them to perform consistantly when they haven't so far.

The Glazers need to spend. A lot. No half measures this time. Back the manager and sort this shit out.
 

Oldham

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Well I didn't like Mourinho Van Gaal or Moyes...
But yes the players are a huge problem... lame ass lazy bunch we have ...
No desire to be the best...
 

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How can we be that far when we are top of the table since ole got appointed and were second last season? I see it has a lot to do with not consistently getting the best out of these players, having a good philosophy and having a few weaknesses in our first eleven that needs to be addressed.
We might be top of the league since he took over but you can’t deny that the results and that table don’t tell the full story. Performances have dropped a lot since the first few games and the players have been as inconsistent as you’d ever have. Even last season when we finished second, most people admitted it was a miracle due to the inconsistent performers we have. Having a good philosophy and weaknesses in our first eleven that need to be addressed is exactly the expectation we have of Ole. Having to manage the second half of a season with a squad he didn’t build just isn’t a good enough sample to make up your mind about Ole either way.

By the way, I think your explanation as to why we have struggled this season can apply to your man at Spurs as well. For these past few years, they have not been consistent enough over a whole season, which explains why they missed out on the league title the season Leicester won and aren’t in the fight for the top 2 anymore this season, mired instead in the dog fight for 3rd and 4th. Sure, Pochettino has shown his skills over a longer period in the PL and I’d have loved to have him before we announced Ole but now Ole is here and has been given three years to prove himself. Let’s stand by him and see what he can do. At least he’s a decent guy and a United fan, not just another manager, so you know he absolutely wants what’s best for this club and he will give it his best shot.
 

Lay

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Said it in another thread.

We have zero consistent players (outfield)
No world class attacking players.
We have potential and misfits. The teams around us at least have an attacking world class player or consistently good players (7 good games out of 10 types).
 

Sparky_Hughes

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We have a squad full of pussies, no stomach for a fight, when the chips are down they disappear.
Too many wannabes who think because they are at utd that's it, job done, grow your brand and bank balance, and play a bit of football.
God I miss having players like Bruce, Keane, ince, Hughes, cantona, Keane, becks, schmikes, players who would run through walls for United and for a win.
 

Intilo

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How can we be that far when we are top of the table since ole got appointed and were second last season? I see it has a lot to do with not consistently getting the best out of these players, having a good philosophy and having a few weaknesses in our first eleven that needs to be addressed.
Jose Mourinho said his best achievement in his career was making us finish second last season , that sure says a lot about how bad our players since it came from a manager who has won 27 major honor. For example nobody can convince me that Mourinho was satisfied with our CB when he had the likes of Terry , Lucio , Sergio Ramos back then. Bailly and Lindelof surely not his first choice CB , his first choice would be more expensive.
 
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Defence

The build up is fecking SHIT. People need to stop ignoring this. Yes it does fecking matter and yes it is that important. The simple minor things like body positioning when receiving the ball or simply being open to a pass. The confidence to take the ball under pressure. The composure to deal with a pressing forward. People cry about Young hoofing the ball but this is just another example of SHIT build up. No manager will succeed at the top level like this, it simply will not happen.

Transitions

Again, TERRIBLE. Most of the defenders do not help at all. The only players who can transition from deep is Pogba and Shaw. Only Pogba does it at a high level. This is why Pogba is needed in deeper areas. He can hold the ball under pressure, and burst into midfield. Lindelof can attempt to play passes but it only makes it more difficult with him playing on the left. Smalling and Bailly will always push him into LCB. Smalling said he prefers to play with Lindelof because when Chris partners Eric he has to play on the left which makes him even more uncomfortable.

Build up and transitions are the first two phases of ATTACK. It isn't about just throwing bodies forward. We actually have to get it into the final phase. This is the foundation and base of the team and it is fecking terrible.

Width

We have ZERO wingers. Sanchez, Rashford and Martial are all forwards. Mata and Lingard are number 10's. This is compounded by the fact that are fullbacks are not good enough going forward. Shaw's final delivery is NOT good enough despite his quality in the first two phases. Having a winger which can operate across the whole line, that means LB, LWB, LM, LW & LF positions (also on the right hand side) is vital to build up, transition and creativity in the final third. A wide man transitioning from deep areas is NOT defensive. A wide man with high work rate is NOT defensive. The delivery and crosses are SHITE. The best crosser we have is fecking Lukaku who should be at the end of crosses.

You cannot attack properly if you do not have the base right, that starts in the defensive and deep phases. You can skip build up and transition by pressing high up the pitch or playing a long ball.

There is a call for us to throw bodies forward and press. If we are to manage a high intensity game throughout a whole season we have to retain ball possession at a rate closer to 60-70% , so that we don't tire and fatigue. How can we do this with our current defenders and the manner in which they handle the ball in the deepest areas? It is not possible. It simply isn't. I hope people do not turn on Ole, there is only so much he can do.
Correct. Our squad has been having terminal problems for the last 3 seasons. That is why the football is so inconsistent in its fluidity. We tend to just go through purple patch's then return to the mean of turgid football. Ole has plain worked miracles with it.
 

DanishMike

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When stating that Klopp is some kind of magician able to transform avarage players in to World beaters, I think People forget his first season.

In his first season, where he took over in october if i remeber correctly, they where not very good, and Klopp didnt work any kind of magic with the avarage squad he inherited. They got spanked by the likes of West Ham, Watford, Swansea, Newcastle etc. They even lost at home to to United in a dreadfull LVG season.
They finished eight. They did produce some great performances on the way, like beating Dortmund in the EL, but by no means did Klopp just walk in and transform them, like it seems some expect/want Ole to. Since then he has spend 400 million pounds. I think Uniteds squad is better than the team Klopp inherited, but not by a huge margin. I think it is hugely unfair to compare Ole to managers that have had years to work on their squad, an actually didnt really do any better under similiar circumstances AS Ole.

I am not convinced that Ole is the right manager, but lets not pretend that other highly rated managers like Klopp just walked in and produced a huge turnaround from day one, without spending a cent. But i do think he should have the opportunity to actually buy players that fits his style before being written off.
 
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Amadaeus

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We might be top of the league since he took over but you can’t deny that the results and that table don’t tell the full story. Performances have dropped a lot since the first few games and the players have been as inconsistent as you’d ever have. Even last season when we finished second, most people admitted it was a miracle due to the inconsistent performers we have. Having a good philosophy and weaknesses in our first eleven that need to be addressed is exactly the expectation we have of Ole. Having to manage the second half of a season with a squad he didn’t build just isn’t a good enough sample to make up your mind about Ole either way.

By the way, I think your explanation as to why we have struggled this season can apply to your man at Spurs as well. For these past few years, they have not been consistent enough over a whole season, which explains why they missed out on the league title the season Leicester won and aren’t in the fight for the top 2 anymore this season, mired instead in the dog fight for 3rd and 4th. Sure, Pochettino has shown his skills over a longer period in the PL and I’d have loved to have him before we announced Ole but now Ole is here and has been given three years to prove himself. Let’s stand by him and see what he can do. At least he’s a decent guy and a United fan, not just another manager, so you know he absolutely wants what’s best for this club and he will give it his best shot.
I agree that the table doesn’t reflect some of our performance post ‘honeymoon period’, but at least it reflects that we are not too far of where we are supposed to be. A much damning table would have had us much lower. With regards to Pochettino, it has more to do with the lack of spending more so than consistency. He has relied on a decent starting eleven most of the time; but that has drained his players energy and ability to stay competitive or tackle disruptions in the first eleven when competing on multiple fronts. I have stated before that we should give Ole at least one season now that we have appointed him manager, but I believe we did jump the gun a bit to early. The honeymoon period is over and if things doesn’t improve by the end of the season, Ole may be in for a chaotic new season. And as a United fan, I want a manager that would be able to implement a great philosophy, be able to win and grow our players. Ole seems to have 2/3 of that characteristic down, which is why I have given him the benefit of the doubt of not have a good footballing philosophy.
 

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I agree that the table doesn’t reflect some of our performance post ‘honeymoon period’, but at least it reflects that we are not too far of where we are supposed to be. A much damning table would have had us much lower. With regards to Pochettino, it has more to do with the lack of spending more so than consistency. He has relied on a decent starting eleven most of the time; but that has drained his players energy and ability to stay competitive or tackle disruptions in the first eleven when competing on multiple fronts. I have stated before that we should give Ole at least one season now that we have appointed him manager, but I believe we did jump the gun a bit to early. The honeymoon period is over and if things doesn’t improve by the end of the season, Ole may be in for a chaotic new season. And as a United fan, I want a manager that would be able to implement a great philosophy, be able to win and grow our players. Ole seems to have 2/3 of that characteristic down, which is why I have given him the benefit of the doubt of not have a good footballing philosophy.
This is where I don’t get you, you seem to accept Ole is a good gamble (there’s no certainty as far as appointment of managers is concerned) and agree to him being given time to prove his worth but still insist that we should have waited before appointing him as permanent manager. You can’t have it both ways, either you’re doubtful and think he’s not worth the gamble or you trust him and accept that he deserved to be given a chance. The honeymoon period was never going to last until the end of the season, so a dip in form was expected at some point. I think simply having us in the battle for top 4 once again, considering where he found us is worthy of being offered a contract. He did a great job and Molde weren’t going to wait any longer with their new season due to start so what should should we have done?

Also, there is the off-season for transfers and the pre-season to prepare for the new season. How we end this season should have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on how we start the next one.
 

SER19

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When stating that Klopp is some kind of magician able to transform avarage players in to World beaters, I think People forget his first season.

In his first season, where he took over in october if i remeber correctly, they where not very good, and Klopp didnt work any kind of magic with the avarage squad he inherited. They got spanked by the likes of West Ham, Watford, Swansea, Newcastle etc. They even lost at home to to United in a dreadfull LVG season.
They finished eight. They did produce some great performances on the way, like beating Dortmund in the EL, but by no means did Klopp just walk in and transform them, like it seems some expect/want Ole to. Since then he has spend 400 million pounds. I think Uniteds squad is better than the team Klopp inherited, but not by a huge margin. I think it is hugely unfair to compare Ole to managers that have had years to work on their squad, an actually didnt really do any better under similiar circumstances AS Ole.

I am not convinced that Ole is the right manager, but lets not pretend that other highly rated managers like Klopp just walked in and produced a huge turnaround from day one, without spending a cent. But i do think he should have the opportunity to actually buy players that fits his style before being written off.
100%
 

Amadaeus

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This is where I don’t get you, you seem to accept Ole is a good gamble (there’s no certainty as far as appointment of managers is concerned) and agree to him being given time to prove his worth but still insist that we should have waited before appointing him as permanent manager. You can’t have it both ways, either you’re doubtful and think he’s not worth the gamble or you trust him and accept that he deserved to be given a chance. The honeymoon period was never going to last until the end of the season, so a dip in form was expected at some point. I think simply having us in the battle for top 4 once again, considering where he found us is worthy of being offered a contract. He did a great job and Molde weren’t going to wait any longer with their new season due to start so what should should we have done?

Also, there is the off-season for transfers and the pre-season to prepare for the new season. How we end this season should have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on how we start the next one.
I would say that I m 50/50 when it comes to Ole being a good gamble. I am waiting till the end of the season to see if anything happens to sway my decision on that spectrum. I am not having it both ways, I just have a lot of uncertainty about him mainly due to not understanding or enjoying his footballing philosophy.

Remember that Di Matteo won the champions league with Chelsea and still got rightfully sacked. Even though Ole gets us near or in top four, that doesn’t mean he deserves a contract, our team performance has to be assessed to decided whether he is the right manager to take us forward. With Molde, they wouldn’t mind waiting for us to make a decision. On transfers and pre-season, it might have been good to make the decision early for Ole if he is the right choice, but if we get this appointment wrong again, it will only set us further back our competitors. Spurs, Liverpool, City and even Chelsea and Arsenal have some great managers and we can’t afford to have a manager that is tactical inept and struggles to motivate the players at his disposal.

Jose Mourinho said his best achievement in his career was making us finish second last season , that sure says a lot about how bad our players since it came from a manager who has won 27 major honor. For example nobody can convince me that Mourinho was satisfied with our CB when he had the likes of Terry , Lucio , Sergio Ramos back then. Bailly and Lindelof surely not his first choice CB , his first choice would be more expensive.
Jose was a shite manager for us despite some of the achievements he achieved(getting us Europa league title was a better accomplishment than second, so he is taking a piss) and we should have never appointed him. The board backed him with the players he wanted earlier on in his tenure, so he can’t complain much about his players for the reason that he had control to buy and sell who he wanted. He had enough time to implement his vision into United and I m not surprised that vision had him rightfully sacked :lol:.
 
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Kapardin

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A silver lining is that Ole's post match comments almost always reflect what fans are thinking. He clearly said we didn't play well and were lucky. So, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and see how he sets us up next season when he has brought in the players he needs with a full pre-season. For now, winning any which way is fine.
 

Buster15

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So we have wrongfully sacked Mourinho.

It's the players. If we have given Mou what he wanted, he wouldn't have downed tools and we can build on our second place finish.

Does anyone here still think we can do a title challenge next season?
While I accept that he had to go, I never thought that it was all down to Jose being a crap manager. The immediate improvement after Ole was appointed followed by a regression back to normal supports that point.
 

Buster15

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It's always been both.
Of course. It is wrong to blame individuals in a major organisation like United but we have to accept that we need far more than just motivation.

We need an in depth review of all aspects of the club and maybe that is the job for a DOF.
 

vidic blood & sand

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There are issues that need sorting in the summer. If Pogba and Degea don't want to sign new contracts, sell them. If Herrera and Mata want to go, let them.
We need a center back leader, a right back, right winger, and a goal scoring striker. Also need two midfielders, one a strong leader. It's time to overhaul and get it right this time.
 

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We could easily sign 7 players and sell 10 this summer, that’s how badly it’s needed. We need 3 players minimum, but depending on who’s available we could end up signing 5 or 6. I’d say in order of priority:

RW
CB
DM
ST
CM
RB

Even after that a left winger wouldn’t go amiss given how inconsistent Martial is. Plus he’s literally the only one we have.
 

noodlehair

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Mourinho was telling everyone week in week out that the attitude of some of our players was not good enough. Now Ole is saying that it needs to be "survival of the fittest and the best" which tells you that he has been forced to come to the same conclusion.

There was no way Jose was going to sort out the problems when he devoted so much effort to using them as excuses, but the idea they were all caused by him is surely dead in the water now? Our recent performances have had all the exact same problems as under him and have been no better.

I'm sure the players want to do well but at the first sign of difficulty a lot of them melt and almost seem scared to try.

THis is also the third season in a row where we seem to have just awarded ourselves the last 2 months of the league campaign off.
 

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Mourinho was telling everyone week in week out that the attitude of some of our players was not good enough. Now Ole is saying that it needs to be "survival of the fittest and the best" which tells you that he has been forced to come to the same conclusion.

There was no way Jose was going to sort out the problems when he devoted so much effort to using them as excuses, but the idea they were all caused by him is surely dead in the water now? Our recent performances have had all the exact same problems as under him and have been no better.

I'm sure the players want to do well but at the first sign of difficulty a lot of them melt and almost seem scared to try.

THis is also the third season in a row where we seem to have just awarded ourselves the last 2 months of the league campaign off.
Ole's survival of the fittest sentiment rings hollow for me when you look at the trash we have awarded new contracts to.

I agree though, ultimately Mourinho was bang on in his assessment of the quality and mentality of our players, but he was just toxic in his handling of the situation.

That's probably why Ole was a nice option for Woodward because he won't publicly rock the boat. I hope he lives up to his smiling assassin moniker in the summer because we need a good old fecking clear out.

Sick of watching the same shit every game - it's absolutely soul sapping.
 

JPRouve

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It's probably worth remembering that when Mourinho is sacked we are 6th at 11 points from 4th, we are currently at worse at 3 points from 4th. Most didn't even expect the team to compete for a CL spot until potentially the last game.
 

Smores

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More than just the mentality aspect all those times Jose told us he had instructed them to do xyz and people banged on that he was lying, again now we know it's these fecking players.

It's encouraging as i think/hope Woody now realises this and will back an overhaul rather than this half way approach.
 

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More than just the mentality aspect all those times Jose told us he had instructed them to do xyz and people banged on that he was lying, again now we know it's these fecking players.

It's encouraging as i think/hope Woody now realises this and will back an overhaul rather than this half way approach.
Problem is half of the issues are Mourinho players.

Also the fact that our two best players (Rashford/Pogba) were wasted by Mourinho.
 

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If you can watch this bunch of no-hopers, never have been's and never will be's and genuinely believe our team is on par with the likes of Liverpool and Chelsea then there's no helping you

Stop this "Cult of the Manager" nonsense. You can't be this bad for four years under four managers because of "tactics". We have the 6th best squad in the league and we are 6th, it's as straightforward as that
So we had the second best squad last season?
 

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Mourinho was telling everyone week in week out that the attitude of some of our players was not good enough. Now Ole is saying that it needs to be "survival of the fittest and the best" which tells you that he has been forced to come to the same conclusion.

There was no way Jose was going to sort out the problems when he devoted so much effort to using them as excuses, but the idea they were all caused by him is surely dead in the water now? Our recent performances have had all the exact same problems as under him and have been no better.

I'm sure the players want to do well but at the first sign of difficulty a lot of them melt and almost seem scared to try.

THis is also the third season in a row where we seem to have just awarded ourselves the last 2 months of the league campaign off.
Or maybe it is just another underperforming manager?
 

Treble

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It's on the manager if a team lacks identity. And this team doesn't have one. Pragmatism can take you only so far.

It's highly important for the club to make the top 4. So, OLe could be excused for the time being. Maybe he has a clear plan how to play but it requires much better fitness levels and also several new players.
 

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With all players fit and only 5 games to play in the Premiership, we should play the same team that went on an 8/9 game unbeaten run for the remainder of this season.

We would also have a good bench to bring on the players needed to win games for us. We need a settled side and consistence for these remaining games.
 

noodlehair

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Or maybe it is just another underperforming manager?
Maybe, but its too early to say that when the manager hasn't even been given a chance to make his own team yet. Plus then you have to ask yourself why every manager at the club underperforms and why some of the players demonstrate the exact same poor traits from one manager to the next.

Inconsistency is just a thing some players have, but our players constantly crumble under any difficulty in a game and some of them seem to have trouble with even putting in a shift.
 

Bestietom

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We can spend 200million on 2 players and still have problems, or we can bring in 5 players and solve most of the problems. It is all down to the way it is spent, in bringing in the RIGHT players.

We have 60 scouts and if these are doing their job properly we should be able to bring in 5 very good players for this layout.
 

Buster15

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A lot of our players do not have the mentality and character to play under pressure week in week out. A Manchester United player needs that.
That is quite right.
If we look back at the most successful United teams there is a strong correlation between those and players with strong characters.
 

MikeUpNorth

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I stand by what I said last summer:

I think we have a squad full of two types of player:

1. Talented footballers with poor/inconsistent attitudes (Martial, Pogba, Sanchez etc)
2. Footballers of limited talent with good attitudes (Lingard, Young, Herrera etc)

We have very few who have both the talent and mentality to be a consistent player at the top level.
 

Buster15

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It's probably worth remembering that when Mourinho is sacked we are 6th at 11 points from 4th, we are currently at worse at 3 points from 4th. Most didn't even expect the team to compete for a CL spot until potentially the last game.
That is correct. But we should remember that since Ole arrived we have had two phases.
Phase one being the initial brilliant start.
Phase two being much less good in terms of points gained and performance.

The problem is that phase two looks to be the norm.
 

Tincanalley

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Every manager since SAF has had the same problems to a certain degree. Obviously it's the players.
Yes. It’s the players, it’s the set up. It’s the football-knowledge-free boardroom, it’s woody’s headline chasing, fanboy, look-at-me style of recruitment.
 

JPRouve

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That is correct. But we should remember that since Ole arrived we have had two phases.
Phase one being the initial brilliant start.
Phase two being much less good in terms of points gained and performance.

The problem is that phase two looks to be the norm.
And you should take into account that Rashford, Lingard, Matic, Martial and Herrera were key in the good part, got injured for substantial amount of times and that it's the main reason behind the current context. You can't lose half of your team for a long period of time and expect to perform at your best level and you also can't expect to see things click quickly again when they come back from injury.