It's not the manager, it's the players

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by haram, Apr 3, 2019.

  1. Apr 13, 2019

    Amadaeus Pochettino's mother (MMM BBC)

    Joined:
    May 8, 2013
    Messages:
    6,622
    Location:
    Amongst footballing managerial 'Gods'
    Supports:
    Mauricio Pochettino
    How can we be that far when we are top of the table since ole got appointed and were second last season? I see it has a lot to do with not consistently getting the best out of these players, having a good philosophy and having a few weaknesses in our first eleven that needs to be addressed.
  2. Apr 13, 2019

    Flying high Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2015
    Messages:
    447
    Of course it's the players. We have a totally broken squad. Whatever formation we play, there are huge weak links.

    There is not one outfield position that we should be happy with. Too many of our players have a glaring flaw in their game. Whether that be pace, technique, intelligence, determination or simply not good enough.

    At this point, it's easier to say who I would keep.

    DeGea
    Pogba
    Rashford
    Lindelof
    Martial
    Shaw
    Dalot
    Herrera
    Romero
    Smalling
    McTominay
    Fred
    Lukaku
    Lingard

    That's 13 players. But honestly, only DDG Pogba and perhaps Lindelof and Shaw should be considered starting quality if we are aiming for the top. The likes of Martial, Rashford, McTominay and Dalot would benefit greatly from being eased into a much better team. They have all shown real potential, but we can't realistically expect them to perform consistantly when they haven't so far.

    The Glazers need to spend. A lot. No half measures this time. Back the manager and sort this shit out.
  3. Apr 13, 2019

    Gandalf Greyhame Full Member Scout

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2013
    Messages:
    5,031
    Location:
    In a tree, spying on the next opposition.
    We have an extremely mediocre squad - there's no arguing around that fact. You cannot compete for top honours with a starting lineup consisting of at least four-five players whose average performances are 5/10s.
  4. Apr 13, 2019

    Eddy_JukeZ Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2012
    Messages:
    10,061
    It's always been both.
  5. Apr 13, 2019

    Oldham Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2004
    Messages:
    2,530
    Location:
    Xmurfs
    Well I didn't like Mourinho Van Gaal or Moyes...
    But yes the players are a huge problem... lame ass lazy bunch we have ...
    No desire to be the best...
  6. Apr 13, 2019

    Fanatic 00237 Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2015
    Messages:
    704
    Location:
    Equatorial Forest, Africa, Earth, Milky Way
    Supports:
    The Indomitable Lions
    We might be top of the league since he took over but you can’t deny that the results and that table don’t tell the full story. Performances have dropped a lot since the first few games and the players have been as inconsistent as you’d ever have. Even last season when we finished second, most people admitted it was a miracle due to the inconsistent performers we have. Having a good philosophy and weaknesses in our first eleven that need to be addressed is exactly the expectation we have of Ole. Having to manage the second half of a season with a squad he didn’t build just isn’t a good enough sample to make up your mind about Ole either way.

    By the way, I think your explanation as to why we have struggled this season can apply to your man at Spurs as well. For these past few years, they have not been consistent enough over a whole season, which explains why they missed out on the league title the season Leicester won and aren’t in the fight for the top 2 anymore this season, mired instead in the dog fight for 3rd and 4th. Sure, Pochettino has shown his skills over a longer period in the PL and I’d have loved to have him before we announced Ole but now Ole is here and has been given three years to prove himself. Let’s stand by him and see what he can do. At least he’s a decent guy and a United fan, not just another manager, so you know he absolutely wants what’s best for this club and he will give it his best shot.
  7. Apr 13, 2019

    Lay Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2013
    Messages:
    8,610
    Location:
    England
    Said it in another thread.

    We have zero consistent players (outfield)
    No world class attacking players.
    We have potential and misfits. The teams around us at least have an attacking world class player or consistently good players (7 good games out of 10 types).
  8. Apr 14, 2019

    Sparky_Hughes Donkey Buggering Tyrant who cheats at Monopoly

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2008
    Messages:
    12,132
    We have a squad full of pussies, no stomach for a fight, when the chips are down they disappear.
    Too many wannabes who think because they are at utd that's it, job done, grow your brand and bank balance, and play a bit of football.
    God I miss having players like Bruce, Keane, ince, Hughes, cantona, Keane, becks, schmikes, players who would run through walls for United and for a win.
  9. Apr 14, 2019

    Intilo New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2019
    Messages:
    91
    Jose Mourinho said his best achievement in his career was making us finish second last season , that sure says a lot about how bad our players since it came from a manager who has won 27 major honor. For example nobody can convince me that Mourinho was satisfied with our CB when he had the likes of Terry , Lucio , Sergio Ramos back then. Bailly and Lindelof surely not his first choice CB , his first choice would be more expensive.
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  10. Apr 14, 2019

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2002
    Messages:
    48,097
    Location:
    Founder of IhateMakeleles.org and Gourcufffanboysa
    Correct. Our squad has been having terminal problems for the last 3 seasons. That is why the football is so inconsistent in its fluidity. We tend to just go through purple patch's then return to the mean of turgid football. Ole has plain worked miracles with it.
  11. Apr 14, 2019

    DanishMike New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2018
    Messages:
    5
    When stating that Klopp is some kind of magician able to transform avarage players in to World beaters, I think People forget his first season.

    In his first season, where he took over in october if i remeber correctly, they where not very good, and Klopp didnt work any kind of magic with the avarage squad he inherited. They got spanked by the likes of West Ham, Watford, Swansea, Newcastle etc. They even lost at home to to United in a dreadfull LVG season.
    They finished eight. They did produce some great performances on the way, like beating Dortmund in the EL, but by no means did Klopp just walk in and transform them, like it seems some expect/want Ole to. Since then he has spend 400 million pounds. I think Uniteds squad is better than the team Klopp inherited, but not by a huge margin. I think it is hugely unfair to compare Ole to managers that have had years to work on their squad, an actually didnt really do any better under similiar circumstances AS Ole.

    I am not convinced that Ole is the right manager, but lets not pretend that other highly rated managers like Klopp just walked in and produced a huge turnaround from day one, without spending a cent. But i do think he should have the opportunity to actually buy players that fits his style before being written off.
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  12. Apr 14, 2019

    Amadaeus Pochettino's mother (MMM BBC)

    Joined:
    May 8, 2013
    Messages:
    6,622
    Location:
    Amongst footballing managerial 'Gods'
    Supports:
    Mauricio Pochettino
    I agree that the table doesn’t reflect some of our performance post ‘honeymoon period’, but at least it reflects that we are not too far of where we are supposed to be. A much damning table would have had us much lower. With regards to Pochettino, it has more to do with the lack of spending more so than consistency. He has relied on a decent starting eleven most of the time; but that has drained his players energy and ability to stay competitive or tackle disruptions in the first eleven when competing on multiple fronts. I have stated before that we should give Ole at least one season now that we have appointed him manager, but I believe we did jump the gun a bit to early. The honeymoon period is over and if things doesn’t improve by the end of the season, Ole may be in for a chaotic new season. And as a United fan, I want a manager that would be able to implement a great philosophy, be able to win and grow our players. Ole seems to have 2/3 of that characteristic down, which is why I have given him the benefit of the doubt of not have a good footballing philosophy.
  13. Apr 14, 2019

    Fanatic 00237 Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2015
    Messages:
    704
    Location:
    Equatorial Forest, Africa, Earth, Milky Way
    Supports:
    The Indomitable Lions
    This is where I don’t get you, you seem to accept Ole is a good gamble (there’s no certainty as far as appointment of managers is concerned) and agree to him being given time to prove his worth but still insist that we should have waited before appointing him as permanent manager. You can’t have it both ways, either you’re doubtful and think he’s not worth the gamble or you trust him and accept that he deserved to be given a chance. The honeymoon period was never going to last until the end of the season, so a dip in form was expected at some point. I think simply having us in the battle for top 4 once again, considering where he found us is worthy of being offered a contract. He did a great job and Molde weren’t going to wait any longer with their new season due to start so what should should we have done?

    Also, there is the off-season for transfers and the pre-season to prepare for the new season. How we end this season should have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on how we start the next one.
  14. Apr 14, 2019

    SER19 Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2008
    Messages:
    7,509
    100%
  15. Apr 14, 2019

    Amadaeus Pochettino's mother (MMM BBC)

    Joined:
    May 8, 2013
    Messages:
    6,622
    Location:
    Amongst footballing managerial 'Gods'
    Supports:
    Mauricio Pochettino
    I would say that I m 50/50 when it comes to Ole being a good gamble. I am waiting till the end of the season to see if anything happens to sway my decision on that spectrum. I am not having it both ways, I just have a lot of uncertainty about him mainly due to not understanding or enjoying his footballing philosophy.

    Remember that Di Matteo won the champions league with Chelsea and still got rightfully sacked. Even though Ole gets us near or in top four, that doesn’t mean he deserves a contract, our team performance has to be assessed to decided whether he is the right manager to take us forward. With Molde, they wouldn’t mind waiting for us to make a decision. On transfers and pre-season, it might have been good to make the decision early for Ole if he is the right choice, but if we get this appointment wrong again, it will only set us further back our competitors. Spurs, Liverpool, City and even Chelsea and Arsenal have some great managers and we can’t afford to have a manager that is tactical inept and struggles to motivate the players at his disposal.

    Jose was a shite manager for us despite some of the achievements he achieved(getting us Europa league title was a better accomplishment than second, so he is taking a piss) and we should have never appointed him. The board backed him with the players he wanted earlier on in his tenure, so he can’t complain much about his players for the reason that he had control to buy and sell who he wanted. He had enough time to implement his vision into United and I m not surprised that vision had him rightfully sacked :lol:.
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  16. Apr 14, 2019

    Kapardin New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2017
    Messages:
    9,918
    Location:
    Chennai, India
    A silver lining is that Ole's post match comments almost always reflect what fans are thinking. He clearly said we didn't play well and were lucky. So, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and see how he sets us up next season when he has brought in the players he needs with a full pre-season. For now, winning any which way is fine.
  17. Apr 14, 2019

    Buster15 Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2018
    Messages:
    3,378
    Location:
    Bristol
    Supports:
    Bristol Rovers
    While I accept that he had to go, I never thought that it was all down to Jose being a crap manager. The immediate improvement after Ole was appointed followed by a regression back to normal supports that point.
  18. Apr 14, 2019

    Buster15 Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2018
    Messages:
    3,378
    Location:
    Bristol
    Supports:
    Bristol Rovers
    But you have?
  19. Apr 14, 2019

    Buster15 Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2018
    Messages:
    3,378
    Location:
    Bristol
    Supports:
    Bristol Rovers
    Of course. It is wrong to blame individuals in a major organisation like United but we have to accept that we need far more than just motivation.

    We need an in depth review of all aspects of the club and maybe that is the job for a DOF.
  20. Apr 14, 2019

    Freak Born a freak always a freak.

    Joined:
    May 8, 2004
    Messages:
    18,636
    Location:
    Somewhere in your mind, touching a nerve
    A lot of our players do not have the mentality and character to play under pressure week in week out. A Manchester United player needs that.
  21. Apr 14, 2019

    crossy1686 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    10,657
    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Ever managed a large organisation?
  22. Apr 14, 2019

    vidic blood & sand Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    3,385
    There are issues that need sorting in the summer. If Pogba and Degea don't want to sign new contracts, sell them. If Herrera and Mata want to go, let them.
    We need a center back leader, a right back, right winger, and a goal scoring striker. Also need two midfielders, one a strong leader. It's time to overhaul and get it right this time.
  23. Apr 14, 2019

    2 man midfield Incestuous Modern Woman (Dumper!)

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Messages:
    30,392
    Location:
    Legalise drugs and murder
    We could easily sign 7 players and sell 10 this summer, that’s how badly it’s needed. We need 3 players minimum, but depending on who’s available we could end up signing 5 or 6. I’d say in order of priority:

    RW
    CB
    DM
    ST
    CM
    RB

    Even after that a left winger wouldn’t go amiss given how inconsistent Martial is. Plus he’s literally the only one we have.
  24. Apr 14, 2019

    noodlehair "It's like..."

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    12,202
    Location:
    Flagg
    Mourinho was telling everyone week in week out that the attitude of some of our players was not good enough. Now Ole is saying that it needs to be "survival of the fittest and the best" which tells you that he has been forced to come to the same conclusion.

    There was no way Jose was going to sort out the problems when he devoted so much effort to using them as excuses, but the idea they were all caused by him is surely dead in the water now? Our recent performances have had all the exact same problems as under him and have been no better.

    I'm sure the players want to do well but at the first sign of difficulty a lot of them melt and almost seem scared to try.

    THis is also the third season in a row where we seem to have just awarded ourselves the last 2 months of the league campaign off.
  25. Apr 14, 2019

    Feed Me I'm hungry

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2004
    Messages:
    25,695
    Location:
    Midlands, UK
    Ole's survival of the fittest sentiment rings hollow for me when you look at the trash we have awarded new contracts to.

    I agree though, ultimately Mourinho was bang on in his assessment of the quality and mentality of our players, but he was just toxic in his handling of the situation.

    That's probably why Ole was a nice option for Woodward because he won't publicly rock the boat. I hope he lives up to his smiling assassin moniker in the summer because we need a good old fecking clear out.

    Sick of watching the same shit every game - it's absolutely soul sapping.
  26. Apr 14, 2019

    JPRouve can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate Scout

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2014
    Messages:
    38,626
    Location:
    France
    It's probably worth remembering that when Mourinho is sacked we are 6th at 11 points from 4th, we are currently at worse at 3 points from 4th. Most didn't even expect the team to compete for a CL spot until potentially the last game.
  27. Apr 14, 2019

    Smores Full Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2011
    Messages:
    19,161
    More than just the mentality aspect all those times Jose told us he had instructed them to do xyz and people banged on that he was lying, again now we know it's these fecking players.

    It's encouraging as i think/hope Woody now realises this and will back an overhaul rather than this half way approach.
  28. Apr 14, 2019

    Wumminator The Special One!

    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    Messages:
    17,788
    Location:
    Obertans #1 fan.
    Problem is half of the issues are Mourinho players.

    Also the fact that our two best players (Rashford/Pogba) were wasted by Mourinho.
  29. Apr 14, 2019

    Mcking Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2017
    Messages:
    3,985
    Location:
    Nigeria
    So we had the second best squad last season?
  30. Apr 14, 2019

    Mcking Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2017
    Messages:
    3,985
    Location:
    Nigeria
    Or maybe it is just another underperforming manager?
  31. Apr 14, 2019

    Treble Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    10,576
    It's on the manager if a team lacks identity. And this team doesn't have one. Pragmatism can take you only so far.

    It's highly important for the club to make the top 4. So, OLe could be excused for the time being. Maybe he has a clear plan how to play but it requires much better fitness levels and also several new players.
  32. Apr 14, 2019

    Bestietom Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2013
    Messages:
    4,632
    Location:
    Ireland
    With all players fit and only 5 games to play in the Premiership, we should play the same team that went on an 8/9 game unbeaten run for the remainder of this season.

    We would also have a good bench to bring on the players needed to win games for us. We need a settled side and consistence for these remaining games.
  33. Apr 14, 2019

    noodlehair "It's like..."

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    12,202
    Location:
    Flagg
    Maybe, but its too early to say that when the manager hasn't even been given a chance to make his own team yet. Plus then you have to ask yourself why every manager at the club underperforms and why some of the players demonstrate the exact same poor traits from one manager to the next.

    Inconsistency is just a thing some players have, but our players constantly crumble under any difficulty in a game and some of them seem to have trouble with even putting in a shift.
  34. Apr 14, 2019

    Bestietom Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2013
    Messages:
    4,632
    Location:
    Ireland
    We can spend 200million on 2 players and still have problems, or we can bring in 5 players and solve most of the problems. It is all down to the way it is spent, in bringing in the RIGHT players.

    We have 60 scouts and if these are doing their job properly we should be able to bring in 5 very good players for this layout.
  35. Apr 14, 2019

    Buster15 Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2018
    Messages:
    3,378
    Location:
    Bristol
    Supports:
    Bristol Rovers
    I am proud to say that I have my friend. A major UK engineering company.
  36. Apr 14, 2019

    Buster15 Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2018
    Messages:
    3,378
    Location:
    Bristol
    Supports:
    Bristol Rovers
    That is quite right.
    If we look back at the most successful United teams there is a strong correlation between those and players with strong characters.
  37. Apr 14, 2019

    MikeUpNorth Wobbles like a massive pair of tits

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2007
    Messages:
    18,143
    I stand by what I said last summer:

  38. Apr 14, 2019

    Buster15 Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2018
    Messages:
    3,378
    Location:
    Bristol
    Supports:
    Bristol Rovers
    That is correct. But we should remember that since Ole arrived we have had two phases.
    Phase one being the initial brilliant start.
    Phase two being much less good in terms of points gained and performance.

    The problem is that phase two looks to be the norm.
  39. Apr 14, 2019

    Tincanalley Turns player names into a crappy conversation

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2011
    Messages:
    6,433
    Location:
    Ireland
    Yes. It’s the players, it’s the set up. It’s the football-knowledge-free boardroom, it’s woody’s headline chasing, fanboy, look-at-me style of recruitment.
  40. Apr 14, 2019

    JPRouve can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate Scout

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2014
    Messages:
    38,626
    Location:
    France
    And you should take into account that Rashford, Lingard, Matic, Martial and Herrera were key in the good part, got injured for substantial amount of times and that it's the main reason behind the current context. You can't lose half of your team for a long period of time and expect to perform at your best level and you also can't expect to see things click quickly again when they come back from injury.