Its the players, not the manager

mctrials23

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I can understand the focus on the players because so few of them seem likeable at this stage. However it is frustrating the Ralf's tactics are so obviously hampering the team to an extent
Its not necessarily that simple. He wants us to play a pressing 4-2-2-2. The team currently can't sustain any sort of press for more than 30 minutes based on his first game. They also need to learn how to play that formation with and without the ball. If RR completely abandons that then A) the players have taken all of a month to impose their will on the new manager and B) he has to try again at some point or completely abandon it. I have to assume that the new manager in the summer is likely to want to play a similar style of football so what was the point of bringing in RR if he wasn't going to do some foundational work towards that.

It a tricky question because yes, if we want to get the very best from the existing team in the here and now and are happy to let the players dictate things then we should move to a formation they are more familiar with. That isn't going to sort out their work rate issues or the clear attitude problems far too many players have. Its also going to just pass the buck to the next guy who will hopefully be able to coach this bunch of overpaid morons over the summer.

Whenever I watch one of the top teams in the league play the tactics and formation are clear to see but the biggest immediate difference you see is the speed with which they move and the ball moves. Even in the 80th minute in the Liverpool/Chelsea game players were sprinting and working their asses off. Our players are lackadaisical from the first 10 minutes to the last. Until we sort that out, nothing else will fall into place.
 

Matt851

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Its not necessarily that simple. He wants us to play a pressing 4-2-2-2. The team currently can't sustain any sort of press for more than 30 minutes based on his first game. They also need to learn how to play that formation with and without the ball. If RR completely abandons that then A) the players have taken all of a month to impose their will on the new manager and B) he has to try again at some point or completely abandon it. I have to assume that the new manager in the summer is likely to want to play a similar style of football so what was the point of bringing in RR if he wasn't going to do some foundational work towards that.

It a tricky question because yes, if we want to get the very best from the existing team in the here and now and are happy to let the players dictate things then we should move to a formation they are more familiar with. That isn't going to sort out their work rate issues or the clear attitude problems far too many players have. Its also going to just pass the buck to the next guy who will hopefully be able to coach this bunch of overpaid morons over the summer.

Whenever I watch one of the top teams in the league play the tactics and formation are clear to see but the biggest immediate difference you see is the speed with which they move and the ball moves. Even in the 80th minute in the Liverpool/Chelsea game players were sprinting and working their asses off. Our players are lackadaisical from the first 10 minutes to the last. Until we sort that out, nothing else will fall into place.
I don't think shifting away from the 4222 should necessarily seen as the players forcing it. Articles I have seen from united insiders seem to insist ralf is open to changing the formation

We could still look to implement a pressing style in a 433 which would better suit the players in our squad. Realistically ralf is stuck with this group of players for the rest of the season with maybe one or two changes so needs to find a formation that suits them. For me the workrate issue is a seperate point and changing to an easier to implement system would allow more time to work on this

On your point about the next manager playing a similar style, thats part of what worries me about this formation - no one else seems to play it and neither poch and ten hag favour it so is it really worth spending months working on an unusual formation only for it to be abandoned at the end of the season.
 
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mctrials23

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I don't think shifting away from the 4222 should necessarily seen as the players forcing it. Articles I have seen from united insiders seem to insist ralf is open to changing the formation
My question there would be why hasn't he if he is open to changing it? Does he think this gets the best out of the current crop?

We could still look to implement a pressing style in a 433 which would better suit the players in our squad. Realistically ralf is stuck with this group of players for the rest of the season with maybe one or two changes so needs to find a formation that suits them. For me the workrate issue is a seperate point and changing to an easier to implement system would allow more time to work on this
Fitness is fitness. Pressing is obviously technical but at the core of any sort of high tempo football is a fit squad. I think that is the reason the press has been abandoned. Cardio fitness doesn't take that long to improve but its gruelling and horrible IMO and if you then see various "untouchables" in the team not doing it then it undermines the whole operation. Ronaldo isn't in the shape hes in because he spends all his time on fitness. A lot of that work is vanity (and injury prevention up to a point).

On your point about the next manager playing a similar style, thats part of what worries me about this formation - no one else seems to play it and neither poch and ten hag favour it so is it really worth spending months working on an unusual formation only for it to be abandoned at the end of the season.
Yeah, fair point. I guess formations are a tricky one as a 4-2-2-2 on paper is a silly system but in practice that just an oversimplification of it and in most circumstances you can't put a formation into a nice set of rows across the pitch. Its more of a style of play than a strict formation.
 
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SteveTheRed

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What is going on with the number of leaks? It's either all fabricated by journalist or there is a rat.
 

Bennie Blanco

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"Gaffer, it's all a bit puzzling to us in terms of positioning. Could you please explain it to us collectively, that way there won't be any miscommunication"

Not that hard is it?
 

Manny

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They'll complain about anything. If they did in a group, it'd shatter their fragile egos and they would complain about that.

I remember LvG had to email each player an individual presentation because they thought he was too harsh, and they leaked to the press that they would just ignore them.
 

::sonny::

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They'll complain about anything. If they did in a group, it'd shatter their fragile egos and they would complain about that.

I remember LvG had to email each player an individual presentation because they thought he was too harsh, and they leaked to the press that they would just ignore them.
They are little players with little mentality who let the school aged 14

Not surprised
 

Lee565

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Why is it out of the realm of possibility that ragnick is a poor managerial appointment? It feels similar to the LvG appointment in many ways as ragnick has barely managed at club level over the past 9 years much like LvG when he joined us except the difference was at least van gaal had actually managed and won at the biggest of clubs and handled big players with big egos and had come to united off the back of a very successful world cup by getting holland to punch above their weight. Christ even Moyes had more credentials and logic to being hired at united than ragnick

There is nothing to back the idea that ragnick's managerial ability is fine and that is down to the players. The only slight positive to ragnick appointment is that it potentially leads to him being a football consultant but we need that from consultancy from him now to so that we don't make the mistake we have done ince again of making a poor managerial appointment in terms of credentials and switching from one extreme playing style to another.
 

Thiagoal

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It’s a bit of a vicious circle really this question. It is the players that are playing terribly and/ or have terrible attitudes but it is the managers that have assembled/ play them and train them!

Its really weird as Ole was all about the cultural reboot- getting young hungry players into the squad that would bleed for the cause. He seemed to do it by offloading the mercenaries and players that didn’t want to be at the club. Yet somehow a few years later we seem to be back where we started
 

Andycoleno9

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Yeah terrified of drastic change and had things far too easy under Ole by the sounds of it
Ole was desperate to stay as long as he can. So he changed his first plan (which was high press, hard training, discipline etc...) to plan " main core of players must be happy so they will not turn on me". Because of his desperation to stay as a manager he abandoned every idea which he had and now we are paying the price for it.
 

captaincantona

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Mentality needs to be accompanied by tactical competence -a fuking plan the team buys into. Neither will suffice on its own.

Do you think Bernardo or Foden or any of the scouse lot would keeping running for 90 minutes if their presses and runs were in vain each time...if every time they chased down a centre half he just had a simple ball into a midfielders feet who turned on it unchallenged and just played out? Would they fuk! It works cause the system works and the “mentality” is based on a basic premise that hard work gets results. It’s subconscious...if a press works and you create a chance, the intensity ramps up, the crowd, the momentum, you press again, your energy levels increase.

None of this happens at United because they run as individuals and then get disheartened and frustrated with each other because the effort doesn’t yield results...because there is always an easy way to play out of our disjointed attempts at pressure. When we see a player (Bruno for example) running like a headcase we criticise, saying it’s pointless. Imagine how the player feels? He has the mentality, the effort...but no reward - just criticism.

Mentality must go hand in hand with an effective system. RR has not shown any signs of implementing that yet.
 

Lee565

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Why can it not be the manager when he is basically playing with a 2 man midfield of mcfred who are ok at best but nothing great and then 4 forwards, that must have a detrimental effect on the balance of the team and how can you put rashford and Greenwood in these hybrid number 10/winger positions, they ain't neither of them, they are both strikers/inside forward.
 

glazed

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It's the lack of competitive structure throughout the club organisation. Moving to high press and trying to get Poch or ETH is the way of addressing it but it will take a very long time to come to fruit. These are good players but they don't make a team, let alone the right team.
 

dinostar77

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As Ronaldo said in his interview, tactics and formations are pointless if the mentality isnt right. Thats the key to change.

Even if theoretically Deigo Simeone or Conte came in, it wouldnt work because some of our players lack the menality to work hard, carry out instructions and learn. From that good things happen.

Talking about a winning mentality, mourinho convinced back in 2010 eto and pandev to play as wide forwards and do loads of defensive work. They listened, worked hard and had the mentality that it will be worth all the hard work. The won a treble that year.

Our lot have memphis depay syndrome i.e. get to feck if im going to trackback or press anyone.
 

Macca7

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Ole was desperate to stay as long as he can. So he changed his first plan (which was high press, hard training, discipline etc...) to plan " main core of players must be happy so they will not turn on me". Because of his desperation to stay as a manager he abandoned every idea which he had and now we are paying the price for it.

This 100%

Ole talked the big talk at the beginning then completely bottled it and pandered to the players. Kept playing players out of form and rewarded mediocrity. This is a big reason we are where we are currently.
 

dinostar77

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I guess there must of been a huge stepdown in training, tactics and match preparation after Mourinho left. By all accounts rui faria and the rest of the coaching staff put on really good training session. Obviously the training, match prep and tactics under LVG would have been at a very high level as well. Both men having an eye for the smallest of details.
 

Ali Dia

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Ole was desperate to stay as long as he can. So he changed his first plan (which was high press, hard training, discipline etc...) to plan " main core of players must be happy so they will not turn on me". Because of his desperation to stay as a manager he abandoned every idea which he had and now we are paying the price for it.
His whole thing was just do the opposite to Jose’s tough love approach and build the players up. Neither approach works because the players aren’t up to it. You can only coddle or fight so much improvement out of certain people. You could see it last season when Dan James Cavani and Fred were running rings around our other lads in attack and midfield. It looked like they were playing a different sport. Those are the kinds of players we need. Stick a deadly but physically capable striker on top of a really hardworking team. That’s when things will finally change for the better. I agree we need someone set a better tempo in the middle too. Someone with a bit more artistry and creativity
 

Lee565

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Why is it that Gerrard can turn around villa's performances but ragnick is basically just as bad ole, I find it hard to believe that we couldn't produce a better midfield to out boss villa's midfield of youth product Ramsay, the limited Luiz and the nothing special Sanson. Face it we came up against a team with better manager in Gerrard than what have to offer in ragnick who has barely managed in the past decade and likely for good reason. I don't know what it is with our fanbase of blindly backing over the hill/average managers like they are prime fergie/pep/klopp?
 

Ixion

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I find it hard to believe that we couldn't produce a better midfield to out boss villa's midfield of youth product Ramsay, the limited Luiz and the nothing special Sanson.
He can only work with what he's got. He's been asked to build a house and in his toolbox found a half eaten sandwich, a toy screwdriver and a couple of bent nails.

Gerrard has just bought two players this window including a midfielder while we want to limp on. We did control most of the first half though, we didn't get bossed around.