Ivan Toney Pt.2

C'est Moi Cantona

Full Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
9,021
Ofcourse you can factor in the gambling issue when he's recently been banned for gambling.
So been punished, serving your time, saying you've learnt your lesson, and then been picked for England doesn't come into it?

How do you factor it in?
 

saik

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
3,422
Right, as this would have been such an obvious Woodward/Glazer signing.
I don't get this clamouring for Toney really. He's had 4 seasons at Brentford playing 138 games scoring 70 goals, 31 of them are from when they were in Championship. So, 89 games in all comps since they were promoted to Prem and a total of 39 goals scored out of which 12 were penalties. Let's be honest, as long as Bruno is here he's not going to take any penalties for us. Also add in being banned for 6 months for betting scandal, it's certainly baffling.
He's your definition of average. Considering he's 28 and is certainly looking for one last big contract, I don't see how he's not a previous era signing.

All the players we've been linked to this summer have a very clear pattern of being aged under 25. I'd rather us gamble on players like Zirkzee who have a chance to go up a level rather than spunk our load on older average players.
 

NotChatGPT

Brownfinger
Joined
Jul 3, 2023
Messages
1,088
So been punished, serving your time, saying you've learnt your lesson, and then been picked for England doesn't come into it?

How do you factor it in?
Tonali?

Maybe Toney did learn his lesson, maybe he'll never do it again, but it's not like he wasn't aware he was breaking the rules when he did it in the first place. He was also well aware of the consequences if anyone discovered it.

I don't see how/why you fork out a massive transfer fee for someone like that
 

C'est Moi Cantona

Full Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
9,021
He's your definition of average. Considering he's 28 and is certainly looking for one last big contract, I don't see how he's not a previous era signing.

All the players we've been linked to this summer have a very clear pattern of being aged under 25. I'd rather us gamble on players like Zirkzee who have a chance to go up a level rather than spunk our load on older average players.
You'd rather us gamble on yet another player that will be been driven by Ten Hag, who we already know has some sort diagnosable Dutch linked player illness, over a proven premier league striker who could probably be bought for a reasonable fee, is at peak age, and offer genunine competition to help Hojlund improve?

I don't mind taking Zirkzee if we must, but not as the only forward signing.
 

simonhch

Horrible boss
Joined
Aug 17, 2010
Messages
15,033
Location
Seventh Heaven
Supports
Urban Combat Preparedness
I’d take him for a low(ish) fee, but with the fee Brentford are likely to demand, I’d look elsewhere. I don’t particularly rate him and he’s already 28. So has little to no resale value and unlikely to improve much, if at all. Much rather invest the money in a younger player who can develop more, and if need be be resold.

A 23 year old Zirkee at 34m seems a better bet than Toney at the same or higher price. Zirker had 15 g/a in 37 games last season. Toney had 6 in 17. (League stats only for both). So very similar minutes per g/a. Zirkee is more versatile, and definitely has more room for development. Toney upside is that he’s premier league proven.

Some question marks remain over Toney’s attitude and professionalism and if reports that Brentford have put a 50m fee on his head are true, then it’d be a ridiculous transfer to make. 50m for a 28 year old with a strike rate of a goal every 210 minutes (in the PL), and only 2.5 seasons of top flight football under his belt. It’s way too much. Since his ban his strike rate has been a goal every 4.25 games, which despite being a small sample size, is a worrying downward trend. I’d take the guy for about 20-25m because I think he’d be a good rotational striker to have for the next 2-3 seasons, but I would never pay more than that, and would rather invest that money in someone who can seriously develop.

Zirkee is one option. Tel is another, although I’m not sure Bayern want to deal. David is only 24 and has just one year left on his contract, so can be gotten at a good price. Then there’s Vitor Roque at Barca who has been marginalised, and is only 19. Less likely to make an immediate impact, but a player with a lot of potential. I’m just not a fan of a Toney deal at anything other than a knock down price. I’d rather our scouts recommended a younger player who can be coached into something much better.
 
Last edited:

saik

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
3,422
You'd rather us gamble on yet another player that will be been driven by Ten Hag, who we already know has some sort diagnosable Dutch linked player illness, over a proven premier league striker who could probably be bought for a reasonable fee, is at peak age, and offer genunine competition to help Hojlund improve?

I don't mind taking Zirkzee if we must, but not as the only forward signing.
Jesus. You presumably think the same of the De Ligt's links too then? Nothing about Zirkzee being a key player in Bologna's run in qualifying Champions League or him being highly rated when he was younger or him having a reasonable release clause while still being relatively young. Yep, the only reason we are going for him is a manager having Dutch linked player illness that you have made up in your mind. Figures.

Also, if we do end up signing Zirkzee it would still need to be signed off by those above him. ETH is not the one that's negotiating/talking to the players' representatives. So if they don't want us signing the player, it won't go through.
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
23,247
Location
Behind the right goal post as "Whiteside shoots!"
So been punished, serving your time, saying you've learnt your lesson, and then been picked for England doesn't come into it?

How do you factor it in?
Doesn’t matter. He’s an ok forward that’d be big money with little/no resale.

Clear Ineos have a tfr plan and we’re shopping for a certain ability, price and (importantly), age… either get another contract in before too old OR sell on
 

C'est Moi Cantona

Full Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
9,021
Jesus. You presumably think the same of the De Ligt's links too then? Nothing about Zirkzee being a key player in Bologna's run in qualifying Champions League or him being highly rated when he was younger or him having a reasonable release clause while still being relatively still young. Yep, the only reason we are going for him is a manager having Dutch linked player illness that you have made up in your mind. Figures.

Also, if we do end up signing Zirkzee it would still need to be signed off by those above him. ETH is not the one that's negotiating/talking to the players' representatives. So if they don't want us signing the player, it won't go through.
I don't mind De Ligt, but yes I do have an issue with all the Dutch links, why wouldn't I? It has been proven already to be a flawed approach.

But this isn't about that, I am just saying that Toney would be a sound signing for the right money, and a much safer player to sign than Zirkzee if we are only going to sign one forward.
 

El Jefe

Full Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2012
Messages
5,138
I’ve always been a big fan of Toney. Would definitely prefer him to Zirkzee.

When people bring up Toney’s goal tally in the PL, I feel these posters must not have been paying attention to the role he plays at Brentford. He drops deep, works unbelievably hard off the ball, links up with his second striker, wins aerial balls on both sides of the pitch and still scores.

Brentford is a team that will never score many goals so by nature his tally won’t ever be that high. At a club where he can be higher up the pitch he will easily score a lot more. I’ve been critical of the Zirkzee signing because he’s not a true striker, Toney can play as a striker or a support striker and he is really good at the things Hojlund is poor at.

The only question marks are his age and sometimes he can seem a bit leggy. If you play a ball in behind for him to run on to, he sometimes gets caught by quicker defenders.
 

Wilt

Full Member
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
7,286
Utd need to get Hojlund up to speed

Toney to Spurs
 

saik

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
3,422
I don't mind De Ligt, but yes I do have an issue with all the Dutch links, why wouldn't I? It has been proven already to be a flawed approach.

But this isn't about that, I am just saying that Toney would be a sound signing for the right money, and a much safer player to sign than Zirkzee if we are only going to sign one forward.
It has already been mentioned by a lot of other posters that it has been overblown. If you still believe that there is nothing to our transfers other than them being Dutch then this conversation is futile.

And no, a player who literally came off a season being banned for half of it and being shit for the rest of it isn't a safer player. Not for his quality, not at the price that Brentford would demand, not at the salary he presumably will be looking for as it's his last big contract. There's more red flags here than the red flags posters make up for De Ligt in his thread.
 

Kirk lazarus

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 14, 2024
Messages
660
Toneys goal record is pretty poor . He wouldn't take penalties here , so when you take them out , he's scored 25 goals in 85 prem games . Hojlund has a better strike rate . 10 from 30 .
Maybe Toney brings more nuisance factor from corners ,and maybe a bit more hold up , but hes not good enough .
Toney scores from roughly every 9th /10th shot . Hojlund scores from 4 .
 

croadyman

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
36,148
I’ve always been a big fan of Toney. Would definitely prefer him to Zirkzee.

When people bring up Toney’s goal tally in the PL, I feel these posters must not have been paying attention to the role he plays at Brentford. He drops deep, works unbelievably hard off the ball, links up with his second striker, wins aerial balls on both sides of the pitch and still scores.

Brentford is a team that will never score many goals so by nature his tally won’t ever be that high. At a club where he can be higher up the pitch he will easily score a lot more. I’ve been critical of the Zirkzee signing because he’s not a true striker, Toney can play as a striker or a support striker and he is really good at the things Hojlund is poor at.

The only question marks are his age and sometimes he can seem a bit leggy. If you play a ball in behind for him to run on to, he sometimes gets caught by quicker defenders.
Would like to sign him but there is no chance we sign two forwards with the cost of him and Zirkzee. I also think there is something in not targeting older players
 

C'est Moi Cantona

Full Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2014
Messages
9,021
It has already been mentioned by a lot of other posters that it has been overblown. If you still believe that there is nothing to our transfers other than them being Dutch then this conversation is futile.

And no, a player who literally came off a season being banned for half of it and being shit for the rest of it isn't a safer player. Not for his quality, not at the price that Brentford would demand, not at the salary he presumably will be looking for as it's his last big contract. There's more red flags here than the red flags posters make up for De Ligt in his thread.
How? Antony, Malacia, Martinez, Amrabat, Weghorst, Onana, either Dutch, played in the Dutch league, or played for Ten Hag, add in the fact he was desperate for De Jong, and wanted Arnautovic, would have signed Timber if he would have left, wanted Gakpo, etc, even Mount played in the Eredivsie when Ten Hag was a manager, so it's not overblown, and people are have every right to be cynical about it imo.

I'd take Toney at the right money as he is a good fit imo, but there are risks attached I will agree.
 

croadyman

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
36,148
How? Antony, Malacia, Martinez, Amrabat, Weghorst, Onana, either Dutch, played in the Dutch league, or played for Ten Hag, add in the fact he was desperate for De Jong, and wanted Arnautovic, would have signed Timber if he would have left, wanted Gakpo, etc, even Mount played in the Eredivsie when Ten Hag was a manager, so it's not overblown, and people are have every right to be cynical about it imo.

I'd take Toney at the right money as he is a good fit imo, but there are risks attached I will agree.
Oh yeah there is definitely risks,wouldn't be such a problem if adding striker depth was our only issue which unfortunately isn't the case
 

saik

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
3,422
How? Antony, Malacia, Martinez, Amrabat, Weghorst, Onana, either Dutch, played in the Dutch league, or played for Ten Hag, add in the fact he was desperate for De Jong, and wanted Arnautovic, would have signed Timber if he would have left, wanted Gakpo, etc, even Mount played in the Eredivsie when Ten Hag was a manager, so it's not overblown, and people are have every right to be cynical about it imo.

I'd take Toney at the right money as he is a good fit imo, but there are risks attached I will agree.
Malacia was a cheap backup left back option who was signed to be just that. Amrabat and Weghorst were loan signings as we were desperate for some cover in those positions and were scrambling around looking for players. Martinez and Onana were good signings and we didn't sign the others you've mentioned. Even then, do you think De Jong, Timber and Gakpo were bad players and Barca, Arsenal and Liverpool were all idiots for signing them? Antony was the only one who was a disaster signing. So yea it is overblown.

Anyways I feel like we are going way off topic here but I'd take Zirkzee over Toney and it has nothing to with their nationalities.
 

JB7

Full Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
8,895
Is that what qualifies him? We could just buy Maupay if that's all that matters.
So you don’t rate him then. That doesn’t make him less of a senior striker and as such it’s unlikely we will sign two, surely you see that?
 

Fortitude

TV/Monitor Expert
Staff
Joined
Jul 10, 2004
Messages
24,233
Location
Inside right
Toney has only bettered Rasmus' non penalty goals output in the championship... for a team that lives off statistics, that's a wild swing and a miss. I'm taking Rasmus all day long.
Do you actually believe Hojlund is a better player than Toney as of this moment in time?
 

matherto

ask me about our 50% off sale!
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
17,663
Location
St. Helens
Malacia was a cheap backup left back option who was signed to be just that. Amrabat and Weghorst were loan signings as we were desperate for some cover in those positions and were scrambling around looking for players. Martinez and Onana were good signings and we didn't sign the others you've mentioned. Even then, do you think De Jong, Timber and Gakpo were bad players and Barca, Arsenal and Liverpool were all idiots for signing them? Antony was the only one who was a disaster signing. So yea it is overblown.

Anyways I feel like we are going way off topic here but I'd take Zirkzee over Toney and it has nothing to with their nationalities.
You can qualify the individuals all you like in terms of quality but they're all someone ETH has worked with or knows, it's not overblown in the slightest.
 

saik

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
3,422
You can qualify the individuals all you like in terms of quality but they're all someone ETH has worked with or knows, it's not overblown in the slightest.
And is there something wrong with targeting such players if they help improve the squad? I don't get this notion of being against a player because a manager has worked with them before. That notion has now extended to include players who are Dutch or if they had played in the Dutch league even if the manager himself has feck all to do with these two things. What's next? Do we stop signing players from the Prem since ETH has now worked here in this league for 2 years? They'll all be someone he knows now. Such a silly thing to hold against a manager.
 

matherto

ask me about our 50% off sale!
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
17,663
Location
St. Helens
And is there something wrong with targeting such players if they help improve the squad? I don't get this notion of being against a player because a manager has worked with them before. That notion has now extended to include players who are Dutch or if they had played in the Dutch league even if the manager himself has feck all to do with these two things. What's next? Do we stop signing players from the Prem since ETH has now worked here in this league for 2 years? They'll all be someone he knows now. Such a silly thing to hold against a manager.
When the team is struggling and the players we bring in aren't great, it's only natural to question the manager and whoever else is in charge of recruitment. In this case, with the signings all being closely related in some way to ETH it's obvious that people will get annoyed and tired of yet another signing being someone ETH has worked with because the currently strategy clearly isn't working.

That you can't see why people don't like it is weird.

There's nothing wrong with a couple of signings being players the manager knows, but to have pretty much all of them is silly.
 

saik

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
3,422
When the team is struggling and the players we bring in aren't great, it's only natural to question the manager and whoever else is in charge of recruitment. In this case, with the signings all being closely related in some way to ETH it's obvious that people will get annoyed and tired of yet another signing being someone ETH has worked with because the currently strategy clearly isn't working.

That you can't see why people don't like it is weird.

There's nothing wrong with a couple of signings being players the manager knows, but to have pretty much all of them is silly.
This is where the individual quality comes in and I have already covered it in a previous post. The only disaster signing has been Antony. And as I mentioned before, people are extending that silly notion to players who are Dutch or played in the Dutch League and not just to those he has worked with personally before. The team struggled cause of various other issues, not solely because of the players bought. It is silly and overblown.
 

Gabriel Djemba-Bebe

Full Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2018
Messages
3,015
When people bring up Toney’s goal tally in the PL, I feel these posters must not have been paying attention to the role he plays at Brentford. He drops deep, works unbelievably hard off the ball, links up with his second striker, wins aerial balls on both sides of the pitch and still scores.
Does he though? Whenever I watch him, it doesn't seem like he presses from the front at all. I reckon that's why Arteta won't fancy signing him.

If anyone can get a hold of his presses per 90 stats then let me know. Happy to be proven wrong, as that's one my main reservations with him.
 

croadyman

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
36,148
Do you actually believe Hojlund is a better player than Toney as of this moment in time?
Definitely not at this moment, however given time working with Ruud on training pitch that will definitely benefit him. I just would like to see us sign a backup 9 who can give us 15-20 goals.
 

bosskeano

Full Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2020
Messages
5,686
mate....Toney would cost 90-100m feck that. we need quality and depth so can't waste it on one guy
 

croadyman

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
36,148
i wouldn't have a problem with that at all because we have to find goals somewhere
I just can't see it happening as we seem to be looking for different sort of forward in Zirkzee,ideally we would have both in the squad but our budget and inability to sell is the issue
 
Last edited:

el diablorojo

Full Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2010
Messages
855
Supports
Brentford
Not sure why people get so wound up at a valuation of a player in the press - what sort of idiot publicly advertises their bottom line for an asset they are open to selling? So why would a club do that with a player - especially when Chelsea are potentially sniffing around!

Toney is quality and Brentford will try to get as much money as they can from his sale nothing wrong with that. He'd be an asset at Manchester United no doubt about it but looks like the money available is going elsewhere. Did have to chuckle at the comment that you wouldn't have him on penalties at United though, Bruno Fernandes is a fantastic penalty taker but Ivan Toney is better and surely you'd have your best penalty taker on penalties? Maybe would be harsh on Bruno but the team should be first and egos second.
 

Crimson King

Full Member
Joined
May 11, 2013
Messages
3,441
Not sure why people get so wound up at a valuation of a player in the press - what sort of idiot publicly advertises their bottom line for an asset they are open to selling? So why would a club do that with a player - especially when Chelsea are potentially sniffing around!

Toney is quality and Brentford will try to get as much money as they can from his sale nothing wrong with that. He'd be an asset at Manchester United no doubt about it but looks like the money available is going elsewhere. Did have to chuckle at the comment that you wouldn't have him on penalties at United though, Bruno Fernandes is a fantastic penalty taker but Ivan Toney is better and surely you'd have your best penalty taker on penalties? Maybe would be harsh on Bruno but the team should be first and egos second.
Kind of subtracts from the need for him though, no? If you've already got a guy really good at penalties, who is your captain and will play every game when available, then that makes Toney less valuable. His goalscoring record in the EPL isn't that impressive when you take out the pens.

Not denying he's a good player, just think the price seems too much for what he'd actually bring.
 

Kirk lazarus

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 14, 2024
Messages
660
Toney isn't good enough , if we are struggling for funds ,because we can't offload we should be looking at trying to get 25 mill and 31 year old fullkrug off Dortmund for one of our misfits .
Not sure why people get so wound up at a valuation of a player in the press - what sort of idiot publicly advertises their bottom line for an asset they are open to selling? So why would a club do that with a player - especially when Chelsea are potentially sniffing around!

Toney is quality and Brentford will try to get as much money as they can from his sale nothing wrong with that. He'd be an asset at Manchester United no doubt about it but looks like the money available is going elsewhere. Did have to chuckle at the comment that you wouldn't have him on penalties at United though, Bruno Fernandes is a fantastic penalty taker but Ivan Toney is better and surely you'd have your best penalty taker on penalties? Maybe would be harsh on Bruno but the team should be first and egos second.
You might chuckle about the pens mate , but it's not happening . He's not that great a record of assisting from corners or scoring from freekicks , but he takes nearly all of them .
There is no way he's giving up pens , it's Ivan toney , not Ronaldo
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
23,249
Location
Somewhere out there
Did have to chuckle at the comment that you wouldn't have him on penalties at United though, Bruno Fernandes is a fantastic penalty taker but Ivan Toney is better and surely you'd have your best penalty taker on penalties? Maybe would be harsh on Bruno but the team should be first and egos second.
Bruno’s a fantastic penalty taker though and has scored many high pressure ones in big moments. Has Toney had a lot of high pressure pens like Bruno’s the other night?

It’s all a bit apples and oranges for me, both are top drawer penalty takers.
 

DWelbz19

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Messages
34,578
Did have to chuckle at the comment that you wouldn't have him on penalties at United though, Bruno Fernandes is a fantastic penalty taker but Ivan Toney is better and surely you'd have your best penalty taker on penalties? Maybe would be harsh on Bruno but the team should be first and egos second.
Statistically Toney is better, but it's not a huge disparity, with Toney having a lower sample size.

Fernandes: 54 successful, 6 misses. 90% success rate.
Toney: 30 successful, 2 misses. 93.75% success rate.
 

DWelbz19

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Messages
34,578
Toney's a good player. Pretty good, I'd say. The issues are he just seems like a wanker, and Brentford would still want a lot of money to sign him even with 1 year left on his contract.
 

croadyman

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
36,148
Toney's a good player. Pretty good, I'd say. The issues are he just seems like a wanker, and Brentford would still want a lot of money to sign him even with 1 year left on his contract.
Yeah any more than £40m plus addons is too much
 

croadyman

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
36,148
Toney isn't good enough , if we are struggling for funds ,because we can't offload we should be looking at trying to get 25 mill and 31 year old fullkrug off Dortmund for one of our misfits .

You might chuckle about the pens mate , but it's not happening . He's not that great a record of assisting from corners or scoring from freekicks , but he takes nearly all of them .
There is no way he's giving up pens , it's Ivan toney , not Ronaldo
Yeah I would definitely take Fullkrug but there doesn't seem any desire for an older backup ST