Jürgen Klopp Watch | "Man United had more penalties in two years than me in five and a half years"

RobinLFC

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I honestly think we have. We are undefeated away from home since the last time you beat us, almost 12 months ago.
Theres always an asterisk next to our form that clouds peoples judgement so they go from one yes but to another yes but.
Cant beat low blocks / lower opposition? Beat every bottom half of the table side bar 2 mid way through the season.
We struggle against top sides this year? 1 defeat against those in top half of league and that has a huge asterisk next to it due to our match fitness in Spurs.
We are on course to beat Citys 2nd place points total from last year, thats after sacrificing the first 3 games that lowers that total. If we keep the same tempo as we are now, we could be touching a late 80s points total which goes against the Covid stricken league being a crap shoot that has everybody on par so nobody is excellent.
There are no lowering of league standards here. We are genuinely the best team in England at the minute.
Fair enough, won't argue with that, but it seems a bit like a rose tinted representation to me.

Needed an injury time winner to beat Wolves, went 2-0 down to the bottom team in the league, went down 2-0 against Soton and needed an injury time winner, couldn't beat City at home, couldn't hold your lead against Leicester, needed a (debatable, or so I've read) penalty to beat Villa and a deflected goal to beat Burnley last night (yes yes, Maguire's goal was perfectly fine, I know).

"Great" teams win easily against bottom half teams and perform well in games against the top sides / sides which are playing well this season, and you could argue that you've done neither. Something you blasted Liverpool for last season (or two seasons ago, can't remember) was all the 1-0s and one-goal margin victories against the bottom sides, and that's what happened for you guys against WBA, Sheffield, Burnley, (also Wolves, Villa and Soton but they're top half right now so). That shows that you've (imo) not really been great, but rather have been great at grinding out results - which, credit where credit due, is "a sign of champions" or whatever you wanna call it, it's what Liverpool excelled at last season.

You don't go on a W9D2L0 streak since Nov 1 if you're not a good team - you clearly are. But forgive me to say that you don't look like you're anything special, like how City dominated in years past or like Liverpool looked unstoppable in the first half of last season. Your run is undeniably very good though, but the fact that I read on here, by Utd fans, that "you've yet to really click, and just wait until that happens" shows that you're not that great yet. Liverpool is 3 points behind and have been poor for large periods of the season, so the reasoning "we're top so we're great" (not saying that you've made that one) doesn't hold up for me, a team can easily be tops or thereabouts right now without having been great at all.

You could look at it from two perspectives imo - you've not really been great and even then you've put together a great streak in itself, so you could be scary once you really hit it off. If you believe that narrative, you're most definitely going to be in the title race. Or you could argue that you're a good team on a good streak that had a bit of luck here and there, and that this streak is an anomaly which is bound to correct itself sooner or later.

Beat us on Sunday and that'd be a serious statement.
 

cyberman

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Fair enough, won't argue with that, but it seems a bit like a rose tinted representation to me.

Needed an injury time winner to beat Wolves, went 2-0 down to the bottom team in the league, went down 2-0 against Soton and needed an injury time winner, couldn't beat City at home, couldn't hold your lead against Leicester, needed a (debatable, or so I've read) penalty to beat Villa and a deflected goal to beat Burnley last night (yes yes, Maguire's goal was perfectly fine, I know).

"Great" teams win easily against bottom half teams and perform well in games against the top sides / sides which are playing well this season, and you could argue that you've done neither. Something you blasted Liverpool for last season (or two seasons ago, can't remember) was all the 1-0s and one-goal margin victories against the bottom sides, and that's what happened for you guys against WBA, Sheffield, Burnley, (also Wolves, Villa and Soton but they're top half right now so). That shows that you've (imo) not really been great, but rather have been great at grinding out results - which, credit where credit due, is "a sign of champions" or whatever you wanna call it, it's what Liverpool excelled at last season.

You don't go on a W9D2L0 streak since Nov 1 if you're not a good team - you clearly are. But forgive me to say that you don't look like you're anything special, like how City dominated in years past or like Liverpool looked unstoppable in the first half of last season. Your run is undeniably very good though, but the fact that I read on here, by Utd fans, that "you've yet to really click, and just wait until that happens" shows that you're not that great yet. Liverpool is 3 points behind and have been poor for large periods of the season, so the reasoning "we're top so we're great" (not saying that you've made that one) doesn't hold up for me, a team can easily be tops or thereabouts right now without having been great at all.

You could look at it from two perspectives imo - you've not really been great and even then you've put together a great streak in itself, so you could be scary once you really hit it off. If you believe that narrative, you're most definitely going to be in the title race. Or you could argue that you're a good team on a good streak that had a bit of luck here and there, and that this streak is an anomaly which is bound to correct itself sooner or later.

Beat us on Sunday and that'd be a serious statement.
I could quote you nearly the entire Liverpool run pre Christmas if you want?
Your lot rarely beat teams easily yet ran away with it. Even Pep hasnt been easily beating EPL sides for 2 years now.
I cant remember the last league game that the opposition could point to and say we deserved to beat them.
Thats an over rationalisation of this Utd side at the minute, a lot of back handed compliments that are not warranted.
 

Rooney in Paris

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He's just a poor man's Dumbstar trying to WUM :D
Robin used to be a great poster, now he just comes up with weird stuff and tries to portray it as being rational. Doubting Bruno's world class credentials is just downright weird, he's been wonderful since joining the PL.

@RobinLFC what's up mate, you cracking?
 

RobinLFC

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Robin used to be a great poster, now he just comes up with weird stuff and tries to portray it as being rational. Doubting Bruno's world class credentials is just downright weird, he's been wonderful since joining the PL.

@RobinLFC what's up mate, you cracking?
Great poster, difficult personality... You know how it goes!
 

RobinLFC

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RobbingLFC also said Firmino was more important than Salah. He has a very weird opinion on players.
Fecking @RobbingLFC, that's just downright stupid.
 

Valencia Shin Crosses

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Like I've said, haven't seen much of Utd since he went to you guys. You could consider him world class depending on your definition of it, I suppose, no qualms about that. Don't think he'd make a World XI right now though.
Ah the classic firmly defended opinions on a team based on... well not even watching them. So I guess twitter/pundit opinions? Or just checking basic fixture history

That's like me arguing how great Atletico are after watching a whole two CL ties they've been in this season.
 

Klopper76

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No Matip in training pictures today. I think he has to go with Rhys Williams. I'd rather that than lose Henderson's influence in midfield.
 

united_99

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@Klopper76 I am late to comment but this TAA argument is a little bizarre. Just because he won the league and CL doesn’t mean he is better than any player who hasn’t won it.
I mean Wes Brown for example had a really great season with us in 2008 when we won both trophies. Still that doesn’t make him a better player / talent than Rashford/Greenwood.
 

crossy1686

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@Klopper76 I am late to comment but this TAA argument is a little bizarre. Just because he won the league and CL doesn’t mean he is better than any player who hasn’t won it.
I mean Wes Brown for example had a really great season with us in 2008 when we won both trophies. Still that doesn’t make him a better player / talent than Rashford/Greenwood.
By that logic, Ritchie De Laet is a better player than Gerrard?
 

Counterfactual

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"Great" teams win easily against bottom half teams and perform well in games against the top sides / sides which are playing well this season, and you could argue that you've done neither. Something you blasted Liverpool for last season (or two seasons ago, can't remember) was all the 1-0s and one-goal margin victories against the bottom sides, and that's what happened for you guys against WBA, Sheffield, Burnley, (also Wolves, Villa and Soton but they're top half right now so).
Hang on a minute.

If part of the requirement for "great" teams is that they "win easily against bottom half teams", and Liverpool failed to do that because they were previously blasted for a lot of "1-0s and one-goal margin victories against the bottom sides", aren't you arguing that Liverpool back then weren't a great team?
 

united_99

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By that logic, Ritchie De Laet is a better player than Gerrard?
Yeah exactly. I mean Giggs / Scholes were definitely better than our current academy players (at least so far) but not because they won the league and CL once.
The same way not every striker who contributed to more than just 1 league title is better than Shearer, far from it.
 

Klopper76

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@Klopper76 I am late to comment but this TAA argument is a little bizarre. Just because he won the league and CL doesn’t mean he is better than any player who hasn’t won it.
I mean Wes Brown for example had a really great season with us in 2008 when we won both trophies. Still that doesn’t make him a better player / talent than Rashford/Greenwood.
But Alexander-Arnold is a better talent than those players isn't he? Ignoring trophies, have a look at their respective individual achievements. Rashford for example is one year older than TAA but Alexander-Arnold has been in the Premier League team of the season twice, won PFA young player of the year last season and has been in the Champions League team of the season as well. Rashford's doesn't match up to Trent in that regard.

I'm not trying to put Rashford down here. I think he's a great player. I just think Alexander-Arnold is a better talent and has achieved more so far both individually and in terms of trophies as well.

There's an argument that Alexander-Arnold has been managed by Klopp whereas Rashford had to play with Van Gaal & Mourinho earlier in his career.
Does Klopp actually trust the kids though? It doesn't seem like he does.
He's played Rhys Williams a fair bit this season, including away against Atalanta. People are using the Southampton game and Henderson playing there as some kind of indication of what Klopp prefers but he only did that because he thought Henderson would deal with Southampton pressing high. It backfired because we missed Henderson's presence in midfield more.
 

united_99

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But Alexander-Arnold is a better talent than those players isn't he? Ignoring trophies, have a look at their respective individual achievements. Rashford for example is one year older than TAA but Alexander-Arnold has been in the Premier League team of the season twice, won PFA young player of the year last season and has been in the Champions League team of the season as well. Rashford's doesn't match up to Trent in that regard.

I'm not trying to put Rashford down here. I think he's a great player. I just think Alexander-Arnold is a better talent and has achieved more so far both individually and in terms of trophies as well.

There's an argument that Alexander-Arnold has been managed by Klopp whereas Rashford had to play with Van Gaal & Mourinho earlier in his career.

He's played Rhys Williams a fair bit this season, including away against Atalanta. People are using the Southampton game and Henderson playing there as some kind of indication of what Klopp prefers but he only did that because he thought Henderson would deal with Southampton pressing high. It backfired because we missed Henderson's presence in midfield more.
I am not that convinced by TAA, he has obvious strengths but also weaknesses and it is way easier to be in teams of the year if your team is competing for trophies than struggling to make top 4.
And your argument is / was strongly based on Liverpool getting more out of TAA „because look at his achievements“.

And yes obviously if TAA had played for LvG he would have probably been out of the team after a few games, not because he is not good, but rather because the set up would have been entirely different.

Fair enough if you find TAA better and maybe he is better (needs to play at that level for a few more years though - same with Rashford ), but you can‘t base this just on winning the 2 trophies. Otherwise you could probably pick almost any of your player and claim they are better than all others because they have been in the team of the year / won those trophies as well.
 

Pexbo

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But Alexander-Arnold is a better talent than those players isn't he? Ignoring trophies, have a look at their respective individual achievements. Rashford for example is one year older than TAA but Alexander-Arnold has been in the Premier League team of the season twice, won PFA young player of the year last season and has been in the Champions League team of the season as well. Rashford's doesn't match up to Trent in that regard.

I'm not trying to put Rashford down here. I think he's a great player. I just think Alexander-Arnold is a better talent and has achieved more so far both individually and in terms of trophies as well.

There's an argument that Alexander-Arnold has been managed by Klopp whereas Rashford had to play with Van Gaal & Mourinho earlier in his career.

He's played Rhys Williams a fair bit this season, including away against Atalanta. People are using the Southampton game and Henderson playing there as some kind of indication of what Klopp prefers but he only did that because he thought Henderson would deal with Southampton pressing high. It backfired because we missed Henderson's presence in midfield more.
I wouldn’t swap Greenwood for TAA and £50m.
 

RobinLFC

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Hang on a minute.

If part of the requirement for "great" teams is that they "win easily against bottom half teams", and Liverpool failed to do that because they were previously blasted for a lot of "1-0s and one-goal margin victories against the bottom sides", aren't you arguing that Liverpool back then weren't a great team?
We didn't fail to do that, it was just the narrative on here. There were plenty of comfortable victories, and more often than not even the one-goal margin victories were games in which we thoroughly dominated. And it's also just part of what makes a team great. Other things which made our team great between 18-20 were convincing victories against our direct rivals and, for last season, a great defense and an unbeaten run that lasted 27 games into the season.
 

romufc

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He's played Rhys Williams a fair bit this season, including away against Atalanta. People are using the Southampton game and Henderson playing there as some kind of indication of what Klopp prefers but he only did that because he thought Henderson would deal with Southampton pressing high. It backfired because we missed Henderson's presence in midfield more.
The difference is he has played them out of necessity than choice..

I would only count Curtis Jones as a player he trusts.
 

Becks00

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But Alexander-Arnold is a better talent than those players isn't he? Ignoring trophies, have a look at their respective individual achievements. Rashford for example is one year older than TAA but Alexander-Arnold has been in the Premier League team of the season twice, won PFA young player of the year last season and has been in the Champions League team of the season as well. Rashford's doesn't match up to Trent in that regard.

I'm not trying to put Rashford down here. I think he's a great player. I just think Alexander-Arnold is a better talent and has achieved more so far both individually and in terms of trophies as well.

There's an argument that Alexander-Arnold has been managed by Klopp whereas Rashford had to play with Van Gaal & Mourinho earlier in his career.

He's played Rhys Williams a fair bit this season, including away against Atalanta. People are using the Southampton game and Henderson playing there as some kind of indication of what Klopp prefers but he only did that because he thought Henderson would deal with Southampton pressing high. It backfired because we missed Henderson's presence in midfield more.
You have been spouting rubbish on here consistently but this TAA argument is taking it a bit much.

You use TAA achievements to beat down Rashford and say he is a better talent listing them accomplishments such as winning the league and champions league and then turn around with a straight face and say Pogba can not be counted because we bought him back for a huge fee, as if he didn't pass through the United academy. If we are going by trophies and appearing in best 11s as the standard, then Pogba definitely as achieved relatively better than TAA. 3 Serie A titles, couple of cup wins in Italy, the Europa andeague cup with United and of course the World cup. Then there is receiving the golden boy at 19, FIFA world 11 2015 & 2018, Uefa best 11 2015.

Then if we are arguing on the basis of talent, I believe no matter how inconsistent and controversial he is, I don't believe anyone would argue with a straight face that TAA is more talented than Pogba. In fact Pogba is probably the most talented player any academy has produced in England in Post SAF years.
 

Klopper76

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I am not that convinced by TAA, he has obvious strengths but also weaknesses and it is way easier to be in teams of the year if your team is competing for trophies than struggling to make top 4.
And your argument is / was strongly based on Liverpool getting more out of TAA „because look at his achievements“.

And yes obviously if TAA had played for LvG he would have probably been out of the team after a few games, not because he is not good, but rather because the set up would have been entirely different.

Fair enough if you find TAA better and maybe he is better (needs to play at that level for a few more years though - same with Rashford ), but you can‘t base this just on winning the 2 trophies. Otherwise you could probably pick almost any of your player and claim they are better than all others because they have been in the team of the year / won those trophies as well.
I wouldn't make this comparison about any Liverpool player. I'm not going to run around saying Henderson is a better footballer than Pogba because 'look what Henderson has won'. I genuinely believe based on where TAA is at and what he's done over the last two seasons, he's a better talent than anything United have produced from their academy post Ferguson. I don't think that's a controversial thing to say. What are we basing it on if not trophies won or individual achievements? If it's how both players have performed over the last few years then doesn't Trent still come out on top of Rashford?

If the question was which club produces more from their academy, capable of breaking into the first team, then it's United all day. I feel I should make that point clear. United's academy is better than anyone's in England.
I wouldn’t swap Greenwood for TAA and £50m.
Yeah I wouldn't take that swap either.
 

Klopper76

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You have been spouting rubbish on here consistently but this TAA argument is taking it a bit much.

You use TAA achievements to beat down Rashford and say he is a better talent listing them accomplishments such as winning the league and champions league and then turn around with a straight face and say Pogba can not be counted because we bought him back for a huge fee, as if he didn't pass through the United academy. If we are going by trophies and appearing in best 11s as the standard, then Pogba definitely as achieved relatively better than TAA. 3 Serie A titles, couple of cup wins in Italy, the Europa andeague cup with United and of course the World cup. Then there is receiving the golden boy at 19, FIFA world 11 2015 & 2018, Uefa best 11 2015.

Then if we are arguing on the basis of talent, I believe no matter how inconsistent and controversial he is, I don't believe anyone would argue with a straight face that TAA is more talented than Pogba. In fact Pogba is probably the most talented player any academy has produced in England in Post SAF years.
Wasn't Pogba brought through your academy whilst Ferguson was still manager? Pretty sure he left in 2012 after failing to break into the first team.
 

Becks00

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Wasn't Pogba brought through your academy whilst Ferguson was still manager? Pretty sure he left in 2012 after failing to break into the first team.
Fine but are TAA's accomplishments better than his or is TAA a better talent than he is, besides the point he is currently playing in our first team.
 
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Klopper76

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Fine but are TAA's accomplishments better than his or his TAA a better talent than he is, besides the point he is currently playing in our first team.
Well anyone can see Pogba has more talent in his locker, but he's yet to show that on a consistent basis in a United shirt. I've come to the conclusion you'd be better off without him considering his up and down form over the years, and the negativity he can bring.
 

djembatheking

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Some massive over rating of TAA on here , he has been really found out this year without VVD covering for him at the back. He is all about delivery in attacking areas but is shite defensively which is ok when you have got someone decent covering you at the back .
 

Random Task

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No Matip in training pictures today. I think he has to go with Rhys Williams. I'd rather that than lose Henderson's influence in midfield.
Williams against Rashford and Martial?

There is no way we're not that lucky.
 

Random Task

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Imagine the embarrassment you'll face (you individually, no one else) if you lose.
Embarrassed about what?

He will probably end up having a world class game against us. Thats our luck.
I've only seen him play a couple of times, admittedly, but he severely lacks pace. Both Rashford and Martial will be licking their lips at the prospect of lining up against him, especially with that high backline Klopp undoubtedly enforce.
 

Klopper76

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Embarrassed about what?



I've only seen him play a couple of times, admittedly, but he severely lacks pace. Both Rashford and Martial will be licking their lips at the prospect of lining up against him, especially with that high backline Klopp undoubtedly enforce.
I'm just yanking your chain. If you beat us on Sunday I'm buying a City shirt.
Any chance in hell Klopp actually changes how they play and doesn't go with the high line against us?
He might. He has to be aware of United's pace up top. Is Martial fit?
 

ExecutionerWasp001

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Looking at the league table, if no team really improves anymore then low 80s will definitely be enough to be in the title race, which hasn't been the case the last few years. The quality at the top has definitely dropped a few levels, and I think it's a combination of corona fatigue and the fact that City/Liverpool have been at such a high level the past few years (City 17-19 and we 18-20) which just isn't sustainable for a lot of seasons in a row.
It's not the quality at the top that has dropped. The quality of the other teams has improved. There are now more teams willing to try to get something. Many of these teams. in the last 3 years have been going into games against Liverpool & City with the mindset of accepting defeat & hoping to keep the scoreline respectable. It's true that Liverpool & City aren't at the level they have been. The only way they could have kept up their level would have been if the competition had continued to be total crap.
 

Real Name

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Liverpool fans just want to hear how great their team is all along going about how United is nothing special. There some false narrative we are saying our team is great and based on that some strange points are being made.
 

Becks-7-

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IF HE is losing I am very excited to hear which reason it would be - maybe a combination of some of the following ones:

- Deflection
- VAR
- Penalty
- Windy
- Rainy
- United played differently to their usual game plan
- Injuries
- Only 3 Subs
- No excuses, but...