Read something on another forum which pointed to the same thing. Klopp does seem to be instilling a culture of game control in the players. That was pretty much in evidence last night when we more or less controlled the match from start to finish. I believe the only other sides Villarreal have suffered a 3 goal deficit to this season are Barca & Real. Shows we're heading in the right direction I suppose.
Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
inb4 turned over in the final and no European football next year.
If we end up 7th and United end up 5th then wouldn't United winning the FA Cup mean we'd get the last Europa League spot?
You are relying on us winning and you finishing higher than 8th.
A man can dream.
He's a wonderful manager and has steadied the ship this year for Liverpool, the next year he'll probably guide them to top 4.
He's a special manager.
He's a special manager.
Hah, try harder.
Try harder in what way? he's got a lot out of the Liverpool players, and a Europe League final is something fans would take.
Klopp is a very special manager and young. I'd take him at United over Mourinho in a heartbeat.
I'm worried you're right @TheNewEra
I thought you were wumming after a dead rubber home win against Watford.
In the PL they've been anything but steadied I think. Celebrating a draw like crazy at home against WBA and bottling a 2-0 lead. Also the Sturridge saga is quite interesting.
Let's hope you're wrong.
I'd have him over pretty much any manager out there. Including Pep and Simeone. Would have been perfect for us.
The love-in for Klopp is one of the strangest things I've ever had the misfortune to experience in football.
They've not strung more than 3 wins in a row together all season, and when they've dropped points, they've done so again in at least one more game bar one occasion back in November. They've dropped points from winning positions 6 times under Klopp: drawing 1-1 v Southampton at home, the now infamous 2-2 draw v West Brom at home, throwing the lead away twice in a 3-3 draw at home v Arsenal, throwing away a 2-0 lead to lose 3-2 away to Southampton, drawing 1-1 at home v Spurs, and most recently, throwing away a 2-0 lead at home to Newcastle to draw 2-2.
They were dross in the FA Cup, and no one gives a shit about the team that lost in the League Cup final. For all the apparent progress they've made under Klopp, he's taken them from 10th in the league in October, to 8th in the league with two games to go. The only sides they've overtaken are Everton and Palace, and both of them have been dreadful.
The only thing backing up this ridiculous idea that they'll be a force next season is the comeback v Dortmund and them being in the EL final, which may well be another final he'll lose. After all, Sevilla are one of just two teams to win the competition in consecutive season (the other being Real Madrid), and now have the chance to become the first team to win it 3 years running.
All the Klopp lovers have been extremely quick to jump on Mourinho for this season, but all completely ignore the Gurning Man's final season at Dortmund. Liverpool are a mid-table club with a lot of history, and Klopp's a decent manager who had a successful spell at one club. The PL is far more competitive than the Bundesliga, and Klopp's not going to have to overhaul just one team to get Liverpool to the top as he did in Germany. Stop being so fecking scared of the man and for the love of god just come to terms with the fact that he's a huge poser that knows football fans love a manager that shouts a bit and gives the occasional fist pump. His teams are just as likely to win 6-1 as they are to chuck a 2-0 lead at home to a relegation battler. Calm the feck down.
They've not strung more than 3 wins in a row together all season, and when they've dropped points, they've done so again in at least one more game bar one occasion back in November. They've dropped points from winning positions 6 times under Klopp: drawing 1-1 v Southampton at home, the now infamous 2-2 draw v West Brom at home, throwing the lead away twice in a 3-3 draw at home v Arsenal, throwing away a 2-0 lead to lose 3-2 away to Southampton, drawing 1-1 at home v Spurs, and most recently, throwing away a 2-0 lead at home to Newcastle to draw 2-2.
They were dross in the FA Cup, and no one gives a shit about the team that lost in the League Cup final. For all the apparent progress they've made under Klopp, he's taken them from 10th in the league in October, to 8th in the league with two games to go. The only sides they've overtaken are Everton and Palace, and both of them have been dreadful.
The only thing backing up this ridiculous idea that they'll be a force next season is the comeback v Dortmund and them being in the EL final, which may well be another final he'll lose. After all, Sevilla are one of just two teams to win the competition in consecutive season (the other being Real Madrid), and now have the chance to become the first team to win it 3 years running.
All the Klopp lovers have been extremely quick to jump on Mourinho for this season, but all completely ignore the Gurning Man's final season at Dortmund. Liverpool are a mid-table club with a lot of history, and Klopp's a decent manager who had a successful spell at one club. The PL is far more competitive than the Bundesliga, and Klopp's not going to have to overhaul just one team to get Liverpool to the top as he did in Germany. Stop being so fecking scared of the man and for the love of god just come to terms with the fact that he's a huge poser that knows football fans love a manager that shouts a bit and gives the occasional fist pump. His teams are just as likely to win 6-1 as they are to chuck a 2-0 lead at home to a relegation battler. Calm the feck down.
Don't disagree that he's not been this amazing god as is being implied in some quarters, but they're undeniably better than under Rodgers and Klopp hasn't really had much of a chance to buy players a bit more in his image yet. Next season will be a good barometer of exactly how much progress they've made. I don't think there's much doubt they need to stick with the guy though.
How can that be the only thing backing up that idea? Surely the fact that he will have his first summer transfer window is one of the main reasons many expect an improved Liverpool next year.
Second bolded part is just incorrect.
He has a similar win percentage to pardew at palace. I'm yet to be overly impressed by him
His spell at Dortmund was superb, to be fair. Irrespective of how competitive their league is. I'd say that it was perhaps a more difficult achievement than winning the league with Liverpool would be if he ever manages to do it. Certainly far better than decent.
His Liverpool side have been faltering at times - had some incredibly silly losses and poor results. But they are quite entertaining, and often manage to pull out some big game performances from time to time. Given a summer transfer windows and some improvements in what is a bit of a dire squad, there's a decent chance he could really make a mark.
One of the key components to United's success under Ferguson was that the players loved playing for the man & would run through brick walls for him. I see something similar with the Liverpool lads & Jurgen Klopp. It's a bit silly to dismiss the bloke based on an indifferent league season, especially when you consider he's got us to 2 cup finals, hasn't signed anyone as of yet, & took over a squad of players who were on a downward spiral 2 months into the season.
The end of next season will give us a better indication of his potential.
The end of next season will give us a better indication of his potential.
Can't be arsed quoting all of you.
He was successful at Dortmund and did well at Mainz. There's a difference.
Liverpool aren't undeniably better under Klopp than they were under Rodgers. Their league performance has been no better and as of now, he's managed a couple of cup runs, whilst Rodgers mounted a title challenge. He might prove otherwise next season, he might not, but this is exactly the sort of hyperbolic, mythical nonsense that surrounds Klopp and needs to be quashed.
Winning the league with this Liverpool team/whatever he makes of it would absolutely be a bigger achievement than winning it with Dortmund. He'd be delivering their first title in almost 30 years with the foundation being possibly their worst team in that spell. Klopp did well to capitalise on Bayern having a couple of dodgy, LvG led years, and absolutely had them playing some great football, but that is not the same as overhauling City, Chelsea, United, Arsenal & Spurs to get back to the top. Once again, some weird, fairytale nonsense surrounding Klopp.
Transfer window hype is something I've never understood. I can't recall a manager rebuilding a side in one window, ever. It's suggested every time a new manager goes to a club and is always touted as a big thing in that managers favour, when in reality, the chances of the overhaul needed happening are slim to none. For starters, a big factor in their transfer window is going to be whether they can get past Sevilla in the EL final and get CL football next season. Players aren't going to flock to Anfield because Klopp's there, nor are they going to with CL football. The combination might be an attraction for some players, but the chances that they're suddenly going to be lining up with Gotze and Lewandowski next season are very small.
Klopp and Liverpool have potential. Nothing more, nothing less. Next season will be a better indicator, but forgive me for not quaking at the thought of coming up against Liverpool, LvG or no LvG. Liverpool were hardly in a downward spiral when Rodgers was sacked. They'd had a couple of poor results, but weren't doing as badly as people like to make out. I can't stand Rodgers so I'm not exactly sad he's gone, but Klopp's done little better thus far.
He was successful at Dortmund and did well at Mainz. There's a difference.
Liverpool aren't undeniably better under Klopp than they were under Rodgers. Their league performance has been no better and as of now, he's managed a couple of cup runs, whilst Rodgers mounted a title challenge. He might prove otherwise next season, he might not, but this is exactly the sort of hyperbolic, mythical nonsense that surrounds Klopp and needs to be quashed.
Winning the league with this Liverpool team/whatever he makes of it would absolutely be a bigger achievement than winning it with Dortmund. He'd be delivering their first title in almost 30 years with the foundation being possibly their worst team in that spell. Klopp did well to capitalise on Bayern having a couple of dodgy, LvG led years, and absolutely had them playing some great football, but that is not the same as overhauling City, Chelsea, United, Arsenal & Spurs to get back to the top. Once again, some weird, fairytale nonsense surrounding Klopp.
Transfer window hype is something I've never understood. I can't recall a manager rebuilding a side in one window, ever. It's suggested every time a new manager goes to a club and is always touted as a big thing in that managers favour, when in reality, the chances of the overhaul needed happening are slim to none. For starters, a big factor in their transfer window is going to be whether they can get past Sevilla in the EL final and get CL football next season. Players aren't going to flock to Anfield because Klopp's there, nor are they going to with CL football. The combination might be an attraction for some players, but the chances that they're suddenly going to be lining up with Gotze and Lewandowski next season are very small.
Klopp and Liverpool have potential. Nothing more, nothing less. Next season will be a better indicator, but forgive me for not quaking at the thought of coming up against Liverpool, LvG or no LvG. Liverpool were hardly in a downward spiral when Rodgers was sacked. They'd had a couple of poor results, but weren't doing as badly as people like to make out. I can't stand Rodgers so I'm not exactly sad he's gone, but Klopp's done little better thus far.
I don't think we actually need that much of a rebuild. I'd say we need a goal keeper to replace Mignolet, possibly a new CB depending on what happens with Sakho, a midfielder and a winger. You could possibly add a left back but Joe Gomez is nearly back to full fitness and played well there before Klopp came in. Apart from that I don't think we need that much else. Players like Can, Lallana, Milner and Lovren have improved a great deal under Klopp and we've got the likes of Ings, Gomez and Origi to come back from injury.
If we add a bit of quality in the right areas we're in a good position to get top four next season.
If we add a bit of quality in the right areas we're in a good position to get top four next season.
This is how you know your argument rests on nonsense technicalities.
Doing well at a lower-level club is not the same as being successful. It's doing a good job. We've seen many managers do good jobs at lower level clubs, and a good number of them have struggled to turn that into success when making a step up (*cough* Moyes *cough*). Others, Klopp being one, have managed to enjoy success elsewhere. I think it's an important distinction to make because otherwise you can argue that Tony Pulis is an incredibly successful Premier League manager.
He was undoubtedly successful at Mainz - you don't need to win trophies to be successful at a club.
Klopp only benefited from an LVG led Bayern in his first title win. In 2012 he was up against a CL finalist Bayern side that should have realistically won it. The following year they didn't win the title, but did get to the CL final which was an incredible success in itself.
I think most of what people are saying is just the hype and potential his Liverpool side have. No one expects them to walk the league, or even necessarily compete next season. He doesn't need a full rebuild either, just some shrewd additions in key areas where Liverpool are lacking right now.
I'd still see his title win with Dortmund, and getting them to the CL final, as the bigger achievement. Winning a title with Liverpool would be massive, but it's not that unrealistic a prospect. There's unlikely to be a runaway contender next year who completely dominates, and a repeat of Rodgers 2013/14 side or Spurs challenge with Pochettino is possible. I don't think they'll win it, but it's not that far-fetched if things go well for them.
Without wanting to enter debate, I would like to add I immensely enjoy Alex99's posts. 
As pointed out, I determine success with football differently to some others. He did a good job, but wasn't successful by the definition of winning stuff.
I think this is the crux of it for me. He may mount a title challenge ala Rodgers 2013-14, Pochettino 2015-16 (or god forbid Ranieri 2015-16), but then again, he may not. Given the current nature of the PL, it isn't too unrealistic to see Liverpool as top 4 or title contenders in the next couple of seasons under Klopp, but a one-off title challenge is a far cry away from the new era of scouse dominance over English football that many seem utterly terrified he's going to bring. I'm yet to see anything to back that fear up, and until we see more of him, the jury is very much out on how well he'll do with Liverpool.
He's a good manager, but the sheer wankery that surrounds him is nothing short of embarrassing.
I get you being excited about him because you support Liverpool. What I don't get is United fans shitting themselves at the thought of what Klopp might do at Liverpool. I'm more worried about Guardiola at City than your Stephen Merchant lookalike.Without wanting to enter debate, I would like to add I immensely enjoy Alex99's posts.
Whilst I'd agree that Klopp's league form hasn't been great so far, we absolutely were doing awfully under Rodgers. Each week the team were putting in meek, half arsed performances - a trend that began around March 2015 (when we lost to Manchester United) and included a 6-1 loss to Stoke. In fact, the whole 14/15 campaign was insipid. Going to Madrid away and playing a second string confirmed to me that Rodgers wasn't right for Liverpool.
Klopp's been a breath of fresh air. In particular, we've performed in the big games. In 3 years Rodgers managed no cup finals, in 6/7 months Klopp has managed two. There's also been a large improvement in league form since Origi, Sturridge and Coutinho have returned to fitness.
Players like Can, Lovren, Origi, Lallana, Firmino have come on leaps and bounds; Rodgers didn't even see Can as a CM. The same squad that people a year ago were calling the worst LFC team ever, now finds itself in a Europa League final having beaten three CL standard teams in the last three rounds. As an LFC fan, it's clear that Klopp is on a different managerial level to Rodgers.
The unity between fans is perhaps the biggest plus point - everybody is behind the manager, which is in complete contrast to the empty feeling many had under Rodgers. We literally couldn't have made a better appointment.
Sorry but do you not remember us the back end of last season? Rodgers should of been replaced then and every fan in the country were wondering why we hadn't. Losing to Aston Villa in the FA cup semi-final, Losing to Crystal Palace at Anfield last home game and the humiliating 6-1 defeat at Stoke last day of the season were more than 'a couple of poor results' We were clearly on a downward spiral failing to qualify for the Champions League after being in it the same season. Rodgers debut season in 2012/13, transfer window and pre-season included was a fairly average one, we were atrocious in the domestic cups, out by the 4th round and out of 32round Europa League, and we finished 7th in the league. It felt like a complete write off, but we accepted it was transition season and Rodgers first.
If you compare that to when Klopp came in last October to now, domestically yes he's been inconsistent, but Rodgers couldn't get us to a single final. Klopp has carried us to two cup finals, one now in which he could possibly win that would make him a more successful manager in 8 months than Rodgers was in 3 years. Champions league would be an added bonus something else Rodgers hadn't achieved in his 'transition' season. It was only Rodgers second season where he was able to mount a title challenge, so it's unfair to judge Klopp on mounting a challenge for it this year, many of us weren't expecting him to do that.
Again, I get Liverpool fans being excited so that I have no issue with. Some points on this though:
1. Rodgers' start to 2015-16 was not that bad. Klopp has hardly turned your fortunes around, merely kept you at the level you were at before. The real mystery is why Rodgers wasn't sacked at the end of the 14-15 season, only to be sacked when things were sort of going par for the course at the start of this season. If they were getting rid, they should have done it before letting him spunk away the money they gave him over the summer.
2. I'm always wary of getting excited over cup runs, but it's definitely something to build on.
3. Manchester United, Borussia Dortmund and Villarreal were not CL standard teams. This evidenced by two of those teams not even being in this year's competition and the other being turfed out in the first proper round.
4. I still think this is one of, if not the worst Liverpool sides I've ever seen (NB: I was born in 1992)
I wasn't talking about the back end of last season, I was talking about the beginning of this season. I never rated Rodgers and I too think he should have gone at the end of last season. You finished last season badly, but didn't start this season as woefully as some like to make out. It wasn't spectacular by any means, but Klopp's not exactly been a marked improvement on that given you're currently sat in 8th.
From an outsider's perspective, Rodgers was sacked because he a) failed to deliver CL football qualification last season and b) started this season in a way that looked like you might miss out this season. Both of these points ignored that 2013/14 was a complete flash in the pan, but that's what it looked like nonetheless. Klopp was then hired as the man to get Liverpool fighting for top 4 this season. That simply hasn't happened.
As I said above, I'm always wary of getting excited over cup runs (see Martinez at Wigan/first season at Everton vs Martinez at Everton now). I brought up Rodgers title challenge because cup runs can be equally as flash in the pan as his title challenge was.
If you go back to when Brentan was appointed, you give him his first season as a transition with the aim being stability before improvement the following season. He delivered that, but overachieved by mounting a title challenge in his 2nd season. With the expectations of his 3rd season to be to deliver top 4 and CL football again, he undoubtedly failed, and as agreed, it's a mystery how he wasn't fired at the season's end. The Real Madrid weakened team fiasco and the utter collapse in the last few games should have sealed his fate, but it didn't.
My point now is that once he was backed by the board with that summer's transfer budget and not being fired, getting rid of him after 8 games because you were 10th, with the only really disappointing results being a home loss to West Ham and home draw with Norwich, seemed somewhat premature. Klopp's had equally disappointing results, after all. The only logic I can see is that, despite being just 3 points off 4th, the board didn't have faith that Rodgers would turn it round and qualify for the CL with a top 4 finish. Klopp was hired to deliver that, and has failed. His saving grace is the EL and LC runs, and the fact that this season will be marked as "transition" regardless of what happens, but as far as I'm concerned, his primary target was challenging for the top 4 spots in the league and he's not done that. As such, I'm not really that impressed by Klopp and what he's done thus far at Liverpool, whilst others seem to think recent cup results are something to be terrified of.
This is a valid point to be fair. When Klopp was brought in it looked like United, City and Arsenal would be going for the title, and with Chelsea's season going so badly it also looked like there was an opportunity for us. Leicester and Spurs doing so well in the league was unexpected but I think Klopp will be thinking we should be closer to the top four than we currently are.
It took him a while to get us going and even when he did we still struggled to get any consistency this season. Despite that, sixth place and winning the Europa League looks like it's a possibility. It's not bad as a start to build on.
This is why I don't get excited over cup runs or short runs of form/turns of fortune. You've 3 games left to play in all competitions, with the best possible outcome being a 5th placed finish, one point off 4th and a Europa League win (the league thing being highly unlikely), and the worst being 8th, 10 points off 4th and nothing more.
Regardless of this season, no game against Chelsea is easy, and a dead rubber against West Brom away at the end of the season is a completely unknown affair (see Fergie's last game for further details).
Being a United fan, I look at the remaining fixtures and see you finishing 7th at best with no trophies. Doing my best to be impartial I think 6th or 7th and 50/50 on the EL win.
I think we'll beat Chelsea on Wednesday personally, then lose to West Brom (it's Pullis). We've mostly done well in the big games at Anfield.
On the Europa League final, I actually think we have a pretty good chance of beating Seville. They don't travel well and haven't won away from home in La Liga. Most of Grameiro's goals have come in home games and they're not looking any better than us in the league. They've scored 50 and conceded 47 in 37 games, whereas we've scored 61 and conceded 48 across 36. It's a cup final so anything can happen but I'd say we have a very good chance of winning it.
The only issue is that they quite obviously have some sort of hold on the Europa League, winning it in four of the last ten years.
1) We stumbled to a couple of victories at the start of the season, but our play was absolutely uninspiring except for Arsenal away. It quickly became clear that Rodgers' summer dealings were not going to make us much better. Rodgers had us playing energetic, swashbuckling football in 13/14, and for some reason completely abandoned that once Suarez left. The result was a side with a leaky defence and an impotent attack.
Performance level is difficult to quantify by looking purely at stats, but it's been much under Klopp. Even in games where we've thrown away leads (Southampton, Newcastle, Sunderland etc) we've started excellently, only then to fade. When it does work, we've shown how good we can be. Southampton 6-1, City 4-1 and 3-0, Everton 4-0, Villa 6-0, knocking out Dortmund who were unbeaten in 15 games, only one of two teams to beat Leicester...
We're clearly a much better side than we were when Rodgers left. Consistency is an issue, but it's one that should be solved with time and additions in the summer.
2) Winning the Europa would mean CL. Which would in turn be an attraction for players in the summer.. which in turn would give us a stronger squad. We have a tough game against Sevilla though.
3) United were in the CL this year (may also be next year), Villareal will be next year, and Dortmund are arguably a top six side in Europe who will also be in the competition next year. It's not outlandish to state that all three are CL level. But the crux of my point is that the path to the final hasn't been an easy one. Compare it to Madrid's in the CL.
4) Well then Klopp's done pretty well making the Europa league final.
(FWIW we've had much, much worse. Joe Cole, Poulsen, Konchesky, N'gog, Jovanovic, Kyriagkos under Hodgson were relegation level players).
Last edited:
I dont mind them reaching top 4, i think that will happen anyway. I can see Liverpool challenging for the title if they get the right players in and they key ones stay fit. Their playing style will be hard to stop, they could easily do a Leicester. City probably the only one stopping them. What a shit season this will be, i pray Mourinho will be appointed and we have a say in that.
I think Guardiola's got a pretty tough job on his hand personally. A lot of the players they have are ageing or not good enough, and it's a completely different challenge facing him compared to what he did at Barcelona and Bayern Munich.
I think Mourinho would have an easier job at United than Guardiola will at City.
This.
City have a total rebuilding job in front of them. United just a few tweaks. We have to get those tweaks right, without any question, but we have really do have a great foundation to work with going into next season.
Pep may regret this decision.
I said 50/50 on the cup final because regardless of who's in one, it's anyone's game. I wouldn't be surprised if that's how the league games pan out though.
1) It's a results business. If it was just about style of play van Gaal wouldn't have had a job in years. Rodgers was Klopp-lite and didn't know what to do once his star man left. He thought he could plug the gap with some overpriced stand-ins and it turned out that wasn't the case. Klopp still doesn't seem to have a Plan B despite that being his downfall at Dortmund, and struggling to see out games because his team has run out of steam is becoming a bit of trademark of his. There's only so much balls-to-the-wall football a player can cope with before he's too tired to go on.
I think Klopp's a much better option going forward than Rodgers, I'm just not worried about a sustained period of Liverpool dominance as others seem to be.
2) There's only so much qualifying for the CL will do in terms of attracting players. At the end of the day, players want to play for teams with a chance of winning it, not just those that are in it. There's a reason we won't see half of Chelsea's squad flocking to Leicester, Basel and Anderlecht.
3) United were out of their depth this year, Villarreal probably will be next year, and there is absolutely no way that this Dortmund team is one of the top 6 in Europe. I don't think qualifying for the competition constitutes being CL standard and saying it's a tougher run than Real have had to the CL final is just letting things get a bit silly. It was a tough EL run but nothing more.
4) Hodgson was hired with a noose already looming. And those players were supplementing the remainder of a better Benitez team.
Tougher job doesnt mean he will fail though. And Mourinho to United isnt dead cert as some want you to believe. Think City will be up there somewhere, nobody says they will walk the league.
Guardiola is going to find that his Silver Spoon doesn't work so well when you have to fight for players that aren't desperate to come to your club. It's going to be a real learning expereince for him and we'll get to see if he really is as good a manager as purported. I have my doubts.
Loses his second cup final and finishes eight in the league
and Flopp again.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Very good at dropping points from winning positions.