Most trans people don't have issues with sharing or unisex toilets though, the people against it are from the same vantage point as Rowling, it's these people you need to convince. You're right though, it would make a lot of trans people who are early in their transitions feel better.
Transgender rights discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
The definition has expanded to become more inclusive, language evolves. Quite simply what do you see? Do you really think I should be using the Men's toilets? I think that'd confuse a whole lot of people personally. I mean, I'd find it pretty funny but I'd be putting myself in danger for several reasons, for example, if people thought I was skipping the queues for the ladies. I've spoken about biology here https://www.redcafe.net/threads/transgender.452657/post-25133563
I asked a question - that is all, Your statements are all perfectly valid but i'm not sure why you have quoted my post but not answered it. I see a lot of tearing down norms but not a lot of explaining what should be in there place. If we are to change a universally held definition I just wondered what it would be changed to? I didn't intend to upset anyone or be expected to answer my own question.
I never referred to him as her in front of him or in ear shot so it was never an issue, but like I said I still have to force myself to write him and not her, it's just instinct .
That doesn't exist everywhere. Technically any bathroom can be gender neutral so long as there are stalls. Even a mens' toilet with urinal is gender neutral as long as there is at least one stall. It's labelling and attitudes that prevent them from being so.I think you'll find these are gender neutral as well..
I don't see how that can be correct given that you have a load of blokes with their wangs out pissing into urinals right next to the stalls.
The stall is enclosed, you could make it floor to ceiling to ensure privacy. If it's about looking at people's wangs then there's nothing to stop men looking other men's wangs. The picture @Tribec posted is probably the best solution for medium and large sized venues. However, societies attitudes need to change with it. With covid 19 and issues on who can use which bathroom, we'll need to change the design of public bathrooms in the future. Enclosed stalls with their own sinks and dryer, all automatic or foot operated.
You can't describe any toilet that has men pissing into urinals unisex or gender neutral.
This really is the only way forward.
So when running major trans youth conferences we've always rebranded all the toilets gender neutral, no one ever bothers even if they have urinals or not. Everyone just pops in, goes to the loo, washes hands and departs.
I'd imagine that is because you have given them no other choice and/or because they are very focused on trans issues so this kind of stuff is perhaps more normal to them generally. If I'm standing at a urinal having a pee I already feel a bit vulnerable - if a female entered the toilet I'd feel extremely vulnerable and awkward. I'd imagine it's not that great being a female walking in to see a bunch of men pissing either. Just being honest.
It's down to conditioning though. I have to say the first few times I went into Manchester as a wide eyed teen enjoying the night life to the full way back when, everyone was using either toilets even then, even if they had gendered signage on them. Inhibitions soon faded, again though with the right design you could easily make it so that you didn't have to see this happening.
I've been debating Graham Linehan and his terf clan daily on twitter for the last few weeks (now blocked by Rowling, Jonathan Ross and that Fred Sargeant guy Glinner loves so much - yay), so want to brush up on some areas, particularly around the supposed social construction of gender/gender stereotypes and how being trans fits into this. a common beef i've found from terfs with trans rights is that they believe gender is a societal construct, a construct that suppresses women and benefits the patriarchy. terfs want to get rid of gender roles altogether, and therefore bang on about biological sex as being the only thing that matters. where i'm finding it difficult is that i do agree that gender roles shouldn't be restrictive - girls should be able to wear blue, play with trucks and boys should be able to wear pink and play with dolls, and so on. my current view is that anyone, be they trans or cis, can wear or do whatever the hell they want, but at a deeper level, i guess what i'm trying to really gauge is what it actually is to be a man or a woman? if it's not about biological sex/genitals (which it definitely isn't), and it's not about gender typical roles (which it also isn't), then what are we actually talking about when we discuss our gender expression/identity?
I acknowledge that possibly I'm just a massive prude here but I've never felt comfortable in unisex toilets and I'd definitely not be comfortable using a urinal knowing that there are potentially women going to walk into the loos at any moment even if it was better designed. Maybe most people feel totally cool with it and that's grand but I know that for me it's an issue.
I think it's far too nuanced to be as contextually classical as it used to be, biology does play a part, expectations and equality also shape us. Which is why I do think that girls and trans girls are unique, both in terms of discrimination faced and biology, which is why we should all be open to adult conversations as to how best include both whilst understanding separate needs of both.
I was actually quite close to Glinner's inner circle of rad fems at one point, trying to understand and empathise which made me widely hated in the trans community. The rad fems eventually turned on me when I aired views which I thought were balanced, around the surgeries involved with transitioning and their use of the new acronyms TIM (trans identified Males) and TIF (trans identified Females) stating that if they didn't want CIS and TERF used then similarly they should respect the correct terminology - I don't identify as trans, it's a verb, you can't identify with a verb! I've never been on the receiving end of such vitriol before. I've come to realise that my own views and empathy were just a way of trying to gain acceptance, something which is vitally important as a trans Woman. I now find myself aloof with both sides, trying to be the voice of reason but finding myself drowned out by ever increasing bitterness from both sides.
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I've been looked at angrily by people who wanted to skip the line when I go into disabled toilets. Often enough I need to tell them about my health issues when I get out, which just about every time gets them to shut the feck up and apologise.This toilet is usually gender neutral although I don't know what people with disabilities would think if they saw an abled-bodied person using it.
A lot of people with disabilities will go out and socialise in public places on good days. We could look completely fine, most likely because we want to look normal. A lot of others have issues that aren't all that visible.
Why would anyone want to be radical anything ever?
For specifics like toilets, the issues usually resolve to privacy and safety. In the majority of places - workplaces, schools etc though there shouldn't be a safety issue. My local library when it revamped itself managed to change a male, a female and a disabled toilet (each with one WC) into a three space unisex design with one fully wheelchair accessible space and two loos that offered some handrail support for people who need it. All private, all alarmed - no exclusion and no particular safety issues, real or imaginary - just thoughtful design.
Can it be applied more generally even in places like pubs and clubs or those faintly disturbing (particularly when it's late/deserted) public loos in places like multistorey carparks? Well it might be tougher, urinals do take up less space - men might find they have to queue if we head down a stalls design track (shocking I know). Designs might need to include the odd extra large loo so people can get changed in private, but again that can become part of a design program that includes wheelchair accessibility as a matter of routine rather than an afterthought.
It can't happen overnight though, which is why the emphasis has to be on "why not?" rather than on restrictions that go hunting for the extreme cases and the outliers (like fears of male bodied sexual predators lying in wait) rather than the majority of transpeople just trying to live their lives (if only because male bodied sexual predators don't need an invitation to lie in wait, and they won't care what a label on the door says).
Can it be applied more generally even in places like pubs and clubs or those faintly disturbing (particularly when it's late/deserted) public loos in places like multistorey carparks? Well it might be tougher, urinals do take up less space - men might find they have to queue if we head down a stalls design track (shocking I know). Designs might need to include the odd extra large loo so people can get changed in private, but again that can become part of a design program that includes wheelchair accessibility as a matter of routine rather than an afterthought.
It can't happen overnight though, which is why the emphasis has to be on "why not?" rather than on restrictions that go hunting for the extreme cases and the outliers (like fears of male bodied sexual predators lying in wait) rather than the majority of transpeople just trying to live their lives (if only because male bodied sexual predators don't need an invitation to lie in wait, and they won't care what a label on the door says).
And trans Women can feel vulnerable in Male spaces... You're looking at well publised extremes. Each case should be judged on their own merits.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ner-tara-hudson-sexually-harassed-hmp-bristol
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....gender-woman-moved-from-mens-to-womens-prison
@Rudie - I think ultimately the issue that the TERFs have is that they want to exclude trans women from 'womanhood' altogether, but that isn't a point they can reasonably argue so they use unevidenced concern about toilets and changing rooms as a smokescreen. Irrespective of the claims of the likes of Rowling that they respect trans women, the be-all and end-all is that they consider trans women to be men, and there's no space in their ideology to accept that the gendered violence trans women experience is rooted in misogyny just as much as the gendered violence experienced by cis women is.
The TERF argument is a straw man, where they're claiming that trans women are trying to 'butt in' on issues that don't affect them and into spaces they don't belong. From my experience that isn't what trans women are trying to do at all, they're generally trying to live their lives as women without having to worry about being kicked out of a bathroom, or feeling that they can't access gender-appropriate support if they are assaulted. No trans woman I know is trying to insinuate that their views on say, childbirth or menstruation are as important as those of women for whom those things are a lived experience.
The TERF argument is a straw man, where they're claiming that trans women are trying to 'butt in' on issues that don't affect them and into spaces they don't belong. From my experience that isn't what trans women are trying to do at all, they're generally trying to live their lives as women without having to worry about being kicked out of a bathroom, or feeling that they can't access gender-appropriate support if they are assaulted. No trans woman I know is trying to insinuate that their views on say, childbirth or menstruation are as important as those of women for whom those things are a lived experience.
I'd say that was a fair synopsis from my understanding and experience too. Spot on.
What I'm a bit uncomfortable with in all this is that generally we are (most of us) a bunch of blokes on an internet forum pontificating about how some women feel in relation to trans women. I think this is why I struggle with the topic a bit - women do need to be at the centre of this debate and us blokes probably need to back off a bit and let them have the debate without us all talking as if we have an understanding of what it's like to live as a woman and even worse, making statements about how they should think or feel.
That's a fallacy, this is a football forum true but just as people can call out racism and intolerance within their own and other communities then the same can be said about transphobia, these aren't just concerns that rad fems have, it's pure hate at times. Anyone can be an ally. Luckily, my peer group is predominantly Women, all accepting to the point where it'd be weird if we weren't nipping to the toilets together to touch up makeup and have a gossip. That's how I know that the rad fems views aren't representative. Also, ask yourself how you'd feel about trans Men in Male only spaces?
Plus I'm not a bloke
Yeah like I said most of us here are blokes not all. It's fine to have an opinion on these things and all that but I struggle a bit with what appears to be a load of men (generally - not everyone!) talking about what it means to be a women and in some cases dismissing the lived experiences of women who have an alternative view on these issues. With regards how I'd feel about trans men being in male only spaces I don't think I would have a huge issue with it generally however that is down to the fact that as a man I've never been undermined or had to fight for equality due to my sex in the way women have, so I do not perceive a trans man as being any sort of threat to me or my gender because as a bloke I never have to worry about it.That's a fallacy, this is a football forum true but just as people can call out racism and intolerance within their own and other communities then the same can be said about transphobia, these aren't just concerns that rad fems have, it's pure hate at times. Anyone can be an ally. Luckily, my peer group is predominantly Women, all accepting to the point where it'd be weird if we weren't nipping to the toilets together to touch up makeup and have a gossip. That's how I know that the rad fems views aren't representative. Also, ask yourself how you'd feel about trans Men in Male only spaces?
Plus I'm not a bloke
I guess what I'm trying to say (probably not very well) is that if I hear a women expressing concern about something based on her lived experiences as a women then who am I as a bloke to dismiss it just because I may not agree with their views on the topic? Doesn't sit well with me.
As much as it would be lovely if male allies could step back, we're talking about a debate where people regularly incite violence against trans women for trying to access a public toilet.
If there was a good faith debate where a majority of women had concerns and were engaging in open and fair dialogue on an even footing with an empowered trans community, I'd probably agree with you. Unfortunately the state of play is that a relatively small number of bigots who are massively overrepresented in the media are engaging on a crusade or misinformation and smears against a demographic who are already very vulnerable and who have very little representation in the media.
I have a bunch of trans friends for whom this stuff has real life consequences and I don't think I'd be doing my duty to them if I didn't take a side on this.
That’s an incredibly difficult question to answer. I mean this with all due respect but you probably shouldn’t have been wading into debates on this issue on Twitter, winding people up to the extent they block you, without having a clear idea of the answer in your own head on such a key issue. The fact you got stuck in anyway speaks volumes about why Twitter (and social media in general) is so toxic and divisive.
I quite literally can't think of a less fun way to use twitter.
I admit there are things like, "some men menstruate, don't use exclusionary terminology like women/girls," debate that make me wince. However the reaction that it's because some trans-activists want to erase women and womanhood as a lived experience and declare it a social construct, also make me wince. Take it back to the basics though - what does it mean for this specific public health message, or this leaflet, or this debate about free access to supplies - and it gets easy again. No marketing firm is going to address a leaflet to "people who menstruate," it's not catchy, it's not even straightforward language - address it to, "if you have periods," or even a more officious sounding "those who menstruate," and it's back to no problem again. It's why it's important not to get bogged down in individual headlines or words.
There are some genuinely complex issues kicking around as well. Issues like women's refuges are difficult - they're often highly intimate safe spaces, where even known "safe" males like male doctors may not enter, or may have chaperones with them at all times. Fear of a male bodied individual can be very real, and grounded in horrific experience rather than abstract phobia. That said, it's about individuals and dealing with specifics. If the specific issue is the need for refuge for a trans-woman, it might be that it has to be offered as separate accommodation rather than with other vulnerable women - I don't think the answer is yes or no on these cases, there has to be a maybe and a case by case assessment (and the money to deal with it).
For a more mundane example of complexity, which nonetheless means something to me, women's sport at an elite level will need to look carefully at how it survives, particularly as it becomes more financially lucrative - if birth sex is not used in an exclusionary way.
I quite literally can't think of a less fun way to use twitter.
i've not made any comment on this particular point, because i don't want to speak about something i'm still trying to form an opinion on. usually 90% of the conversation with Glinner and his inner circle is around access to women's bathrooms, which is easily debated as sensationalist scare mongering. however there's been the odd conversation branch off to discuss this line of enquiry.
also, i've never actually engaged with Rowling, Ross etc - but somehow have been blocked by them. i'm assuming just because they follow Glinner, and have seen some of the discussions.
Probably used a block chain, commonly used by both sides to stifle debate.
agree it's a very naunced topic, and there may well not be one single answer to the question. it's an interesting thought experiement to be honest, what defines any of us as men, women, cis or trans?
in terms of biological sex, i found an interesting thread discussing it and why it isn't as simple as terfs would make out:
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i've also partly tried engaging with the rad fems on twitter partly because i enjoy a debate, but also to try and understand their viewpoints. it quickly dawns on you that they don't have much to back up their bigotry with though.
I’ve read loads of similar tweets/twitter threads about biological sex. They all try to make something pretty basic seem incredibly complex. The simple fact is that XY = male and XX = female for the vast vast majority of people. Like 99%+.
Yes this doesn’t apply to absolutely everyone but it’s actually rare enough to get 100% certainty with anything in biology. If anything, the concordance between sex chromosomes and biological sex is one of most cut and dried and (yes, I said it) binary phenomenon you’re likely to come across.
Let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater. There’s nothing wrong with taking a case by case approach for the very rare outliers, while basing legislation etc on the other 99%.
Obviously, this only matters for the scenarios raised by @jojojo above. Shelters, safe spaces and sports etc. It shouldn’t provide any barriers to trans men/women in their day to day life. And that’s where the trans activists get as crazy as the Graham Linehans of this world. Getting embroiled in never-ending arguments with the opposition over scenarios that are completely irrelevant to the vast majority of trans people.
Wait, is the consensus here on this thread actually that Rowling is transphobic and bigoted?
It appears to be yes.
Well Katie Leung, Emma Watson and Bonnie Wright all seem to disagree with her sentiments and have risked alienation by speaking up.
I used the women's toilets once by drunken accident. The sad part is that the absence of urinals didn't even phase me and I'd even been to the establishment before.The definition has expanded to become more inclusive, language evolves. Quite simply what do you see? Do you really think I should be using the Men's toilets? I think that'd confuse a whole lot of people personally. I mean, I'd find it pretty funny but I'd be putting myself in danger for several reasons, for example, if people thought I was skipping the queues for the ladies. I've spoken about biology here https://www.redcafe.net/threads/transgender.452657/post-25133563
of course she is. her essay was merely one transophic trope after another.
Ah the old 'drunken' excuse