Jadon Sancho | Howard Nurse: Dortmund's resolve to be tested finally.

RedRonaldo

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I try to imagine if the situation was reversed, how we would feel. We have a German international who only moved a couple seasons ago, and a big German club is in for him after a great year. He's done really well for us, but we know he's not a United fan or really has any ties to us. We're not about to win the league anytime soon, and haven't really come close in the CL.

I would expect that player to leave, and more or less with my blessing as a fan. I would want us to hold out so we don't get fleeced, but wouldn't care about 10m one way or the other. But, I would have wanted us to get him out early, so if we had to replace him that could also happen early.

Because at the back of my head, the difference between elite and the rest is a fraction of a percentage. And if his motivation is slightly down, that will show on the pitch.

So we'll see. I don't think if you're the Dortmund coaching staff you can completely trust that he - a player with known attitude issues in the past - is going to be as motivated as last year. And 100m is a huge fee for such a relatively unproven player. With that and their scouting network they could easily pick out 3 or 4 more talents to improve them in other areas. Or keep 50m in case of a winter spike in Covid.
What are you talking about, Sancho is an unproven player? He is easily their best player, and just had 2 worldclass seasons. His goals+assists stats last season is only second to Messi, the GOAT. They are only beaten by Bayern in the league, the current CL and treble winner who is undefeated in Europe this season. Bear in mind they sold Dembele to Barca for 145m not long ago. They are asking 105m for Sancho, who is younger and better, is actually a steal.
 

Rolaholic

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The clubs PR team is hilarious. They have excuses ready for EVERY signing they don't make and we see journo's always briefing we were never interested in such and such whenever a rival club makes a signing.

Whether fans even wanted the player or not, they make it out like they can get anyone if they really want them, anyone except Sancho apparently :lol: :rolleyes:
 

Beachryan

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What are you talking about, Sancho is an unproven player? He is easily their best player, and just had 2 worldclass seasons. His goals+assists stats last season is only second to Messi, the GOAT. They are only beaten by Bayern in the league, the current CL and treble winner who is undefeated in Europe this season. Bear in mind they sold Dembele to Barca for 145m not long ago. They are asking 105m for Sancho, who is younger and better, is actually a steal.
Just playing devil's advocate - in 18/19 his stats are remarkably similar to a certain Armenian playing in that same side.
I agree his 19/20 has been excellent, but it's one season in the Bundesliga, for what would become a record signing fee.

Using the Dembele fee - which I'm sure 99% of football experts lament as a huge, inexcusable disaster of a transfer which is now ruining the club that did it - as precedence seems pretty silly.
 

SATA

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The clubs PR team is hilarious. They have excuses ready for EVERY signing they don't make and we see journo's always briefing we were never interested in such and such whenever a rival club makes a signing.

Whether fans even wanted the player or not, they make it out like they can get anyone if they really want them, anyone except Sancho apparently :lol: :rolleyes:
Sancho costs over 100M pounds of money. It's a big transfer. Likes of Reguilon was just 1/5 of that. VDB was signed pretty much swiftly too
 

Rajat Jain

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Rajat Jain

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Is this all legit? Saw a spelling mistake in the first few lines so not sure.
The numbers depicted in the graph of club's revenue are close to those mentioned in budgeting reports.
Check the numbers and not the spellings for determining legitemacy.
 

Posh Red

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The numbers depicted in the graph of club's revenue are close to those mentioned in budgeting reports.
Check the numbers and not the spellings for determining legitemacy.
Well I was more interested in the covenants referred to in the article. Is there any evidence to back those up?

I’m not being funny but spelling mistakes do tend to make me question how well informed someone is (especially when someone has gone to the trouble of publishing the article online).
 

RedRonaldo

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Just playing devil's advocate - in 18/19 his stats are remarkably similar to a certain Armenian playing in that same side.
I agree his 19/20 has been excellent, but it's one season in the Bundesliga, for what would become a record signing fee.

Using the Dembele fee - which I'm sure 99% of football experts lament as a huge, inexcusable disaster of a transfer which is now ruining the club that did it - as precedence seems pretty silly.
Well Joao Felix went to Athletico for 113m last summer after one good season in Portugal, do you think he is better than Sancho?
 

Classical Mechanic

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I'm a Sancho optimist but I have to admit, reading the below has drained all of the optimism out of me, if true... :(

https://medium.com/football-bureau-of-investigation/jadon-sancho-the-circus-strategy-2904b788999e
Not really convinced by the conclusion. I don't think that lack of outgoings is ineptitude. It's brinksmanship. Buying clubs are trying to low ball us (see Smalling). What that article tells me is that don't expect much business either way until the final week of the window. Actually, simple common sense told everyone that from the outset.

What have '5 signings' City or Liverpool done this window? City have signed two discount players from financially compromised clubs and Liverpool have signed a left back no one has ever heard of. We've actually done higher profile business than both those clubs.

It's pretty clear that most clubs are being very cautious.
 

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Redfan94

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For the life of me I can’t understand our stance regarding Sancho.

Dortmund don’t want, nor need to sell, and they’ve now been backed into a corner regarding the fee where anything less than the €120 Million will make them look bad in the eyes of their fans.

Either pay it, or move on.
 

do.ob

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The point is that their previous quarterly results stated that significant player sales would continue to be an important function of their financial model.

So just to run the club normally before this virus they had to sell players.

Since then they have a net spend of €41m and reported an operating loss of €45m.

a) normal went out the window with Covid, the club has to accept making losses for the duration of the pandemic
b) they aren't burning the Sancho money, they are just postponing the sale for another season instead of doing it on unsatisfactory terms
 

sammsky1

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If that article is true we're not far away from bankruptcy.
I’ve been trying to explain this all Summer. But we also have so many financially literate fans who insist we can ‘just pay the money’ because ‘we are Manchester United’ and any fan who explains the reality of our COVID-19 finances is a ‘Glazer Stoodge’.

It’s possible to hate the Glazress and understand the constraints of our balance sheet at the same time!
 

Gasolin

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I'm a Sancho optimist but I have to admit, reading the below has drained all of the optimism out of me, if true... :(

https://medium.com/football-bureau-of-investigation/jadon-sancho-the-circus-strategy-2904b788999e
I understand the point of the article.
But while they talk about us having financial uncertainties and therefore hesitating, what about BVB? Are they not hesitating? No financial uncertainty? How? That's the part I don't understand. Everyone wants to tell us we have no money and we fear for the future. But surely the same should apply to all football clubs in the world.

Not saying we will get Sancho, or not. I hope we get him. It's just unfortunate that it's so hard for us to get a deal.
 

Beachryan

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Well Joao Felix went to Athletico for 113m last summer after one good season in Portugal, do you think he is better than Sancho?
Well if we're cherry picking outliers, can I chose 2 extreme bargains to illustrate my point? I'll see your Dembele and Felix and raise you a Robertson and Brandt.

As other sensible posters are pointing out, there aren't 100m deals being done this summer like there have been in pre-covid days.
 

Beachryan

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a) normal went out the window with Covid, the club has to accept making losses for the duration of the pandemic
b) they aren't burning the Sancho money, they are just postponing the sale for another season instead of doing it on unsatisfactory terms
You two points combined push towards the only option for clubs is to borrow money. Which is probably what will happen, but if I were the board and the options were sell a player now, in uncertain times for 100m or have to go to banks to negotiate loans in order to pay wages, I know which I would pick.

Businesses can't just 'accept making losses' for an uncertain duration of time.
 

Baxter

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Well if we're cherry picking outliers, can I chose 2 extreme bargains to illustrate my point? I'll see your Dembele and Felix and raise you a Robertson and Brandt.

As other sensible posters are pointing out, there aren't 100m deals being done this summer like there have been in pre-covid days.
Robertson was talented, but played for a relegated team and wasn't exactly touted as a potential world class player. Very good scouting, but not a sure thing. Brandt had a release clause. Neither close to being similar to one of the best players in the world at 20 years old, with 3 years on his contract.
 

Zoo

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I just don’t see how this can be done if Sancho is not going to play his part and push for the move even a little bit.
 

Jmck

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I understand the point of the article.
But while they talk about us having financial uncertainties and therefore hesitating, what about BVB? Are they not hesitating? No financial uncertainty? How? That's the part I don't understand. Everyone wants to tell us we have no money and we fear for the future. But surely the same should apply to all football clubs in the world.

Not saying we will get Sancho, or not. I hope we get him. It's just unfortunate that it's so hard for us to get a deal.

Because unlike united, Dortmund don't have an apparent possible breach of covenant by not selling.

Whether or not that covenant does exist, breaching it if real would be seriously unwise.

Its a shame that the fans pay the ultimate price. We just want to see our club making big moves but extremely poor greedy businessmen have stomped on it.

While i understand we maybe can not just pay the money, it still stings that its come to this.
 

Adisa

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Article or not, I can't see him coming this summer. We will probably won't even have any matchday income next season. I can't see us spending that kind of money for now.
[/QUOTE]
I'm a Sancho optimist but I have to admit, reading the below has drained all of the optimism out of me, if true... :(

https://medium.com/football-bureau-of-investigation/jadon-sancho-the-circus-strategy-2904b788999e
As I said before excitement took over me, I never even expected him to be a target this summer. I looked at our account statements and I just couldn't see how would do it. People forget we have about £120m net payables due over the next few months with little coming in.
This is ultimately why I think he won't come.
We caved for Maguire cause we had the money. We aren't going cave for Sancho. Not because we don't want to but because we simply can't afford to.
 

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Whilst there may well be financial concerns affecting our ability to make transfers, that article is nonsense given it turns on the EBTIDA, and transfer fees are always amortised over the length of the contracts. As for wage concerns, we've cleared Sanchez's wages off the books which would more than cover De Beek and Sancho
 

VP89

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For the life of me I can’t understand our stance regarding Sancho.

Dortmund don’t want, nor need to sell, and they’ve now been backed into a corner regarding the fee where anything less than the €120 Million will make them look bad in the eyes of their fans.

Either pay it, or move on.
It may be likely we want him but not for 120m eur.

It's also a fair consideration that Dortmund would succumb to a lower fee at the end of the window. So we will just need to wait and see.

If they do it pays off. If they don't, what exactly have we lost? It's a route we want to pursue to our own limit. I don't have an issue with this.
 

georgipep

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You have to hand it to United's negotiation team for their innovative tactics if nothing else. They seem to be trying to call Dortmund's bluff in the belief that Dortmund are desperate to sell him this summer. I hope they know what they're doing but the impression is that Dortmund are not only not desperate but actually don't want to sell him.

The "we're willing to walk away, we have Grealish, Bale, etc lined up" briefings only make them look even more stupid when said player signs somewhere else.

It's painful to watch. It's like a western tourist trying to negotiate in the Bangkok markets for the first time.

You have to feel for Ole in all of this. After the shambles of last summer they're looking like they will outdo themselves again this summer.
I don't necessarily disagree but the Grealish, Bale part is something the media assumes and adds for clickbait and to justify their constant barrage of articles.

Never has the club commented anything of the sorts and all the "close to the club" journalists have been proven clueless many times already.
 

RedRonaldo

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Well if we're cherry picking outliers, can I chose 2 extreme bargains to illustrate my point? I'll see your Dembele and Felix and raise you a Robertson and Brandt.

As other sensible posters are pointing out, there aren't 100m deals being done this summer like there have been in pre-covid days.
What are you talking about? I am just listing all the best young talented players on the move in recent years. There are not many of them, but they are all in big transfer fee: Mbappe (180m), Dembele (145m), Joao Felix (113m), and guess what? Sancho has comparable stats/performanes, if not better, than all 3 of them. Do you really expect me to name another 10 similar ones in past 3 years? There are only few very talented ones around and available in the market, and I've listed them all!

Are you are seriously comparing Robertson and Brandt at their previous club with Sancho at Dortmund? You don't really rate Sancho at all?
 
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sammsky1

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I understand the point of the article. But while they talk about us having financial uncertainties and therefore hesitating, what about BVB? Are they not hesitating? No financial uncertainty? How? That's the part I don't understand. Everyone wants to tell us we have no money and we fear for the future. But surely the same should apply to all football clubs in the world.

Not saying we will get Sancho, or not. I hope we get him. It's just unfortunate that it's so hard for us to get a deal.
No other club is contemplating a £100m signing! No other non sugar daddy club is spending.
 

Beachryan

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Robertson was talented, but played for a relegated team and wasn't exactly touted as a potential world class player. Very good scouting, but not a sure thing. Brandt had a release clause. Neither close to being similar to one of the best players in the world at 20 years old, with 3 years on his contract.
I know, exceptional circumstances, I was merely pointing out that Dembele could hardly be used as a yardstick for a Sancho fee, because that transfer is not 'normal'.
 

Giggsy13

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Sancho has no connection to our club, he came thru Watford before joining city. He has a friendship with Rashford, which I’m sure helps but the fact he hasn’t agitated for a move at this might suggest he’s not that bothered waiting for more English suitors next year.

Also can he really trust our club to automatically qualify for champions league or make a legitimate title challenge based on our recent history? We aren’t the gold standard anymore meaning we have to overpay at times to get what we want.
 

sammsky1

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As I said before excitement took over me, I never even expected him to be a target this summer. I looked at our account statements and I just couldn't see how would do it. People forget we have about £120m net payables due over the next few months with little coming in.
This is ultimately why I think he won't come.
We caved for Maguire cause we had the money. We aren't going cave for Sancho. Not because we don't want to but because we simply can't afford to.
What kind of deal do you think we can afford? What is Woodward’s best bid?
 

Zehner

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Whilst there may well be financial concerns affecting our ability to make transfers, that article is nonsense given it turns on the EBTIDA, and transfer fees are always amortised over the length of the contracts. As for wage concerns, we've cleared Sanchez's wages off the books which would more than cover De Beek and Sancho
But the article didn't name the transfer fee as the problem. Of course you could activate the fee but the 65m pound profit would be in danger because Sancho would increase your wage bill so drastically that you couldn't afford it without getting other players off the books. And the salaries can't be activated after IFRS if I'm not mistaken.

Also, what about agent fees? Are they considered part of the transfer fee, e.g. could you activate Sancho for 120m pound if you paid Dortmund 108m and the intermediary another 12m?

This could explaine the differing reports regarding United having reached an agreement on personal terms.
 

do.ob

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I understand the point of the article.
But while they talk about us having financial uncertainties and therefore hesitating, what about BVB? Are they not hesitating? No financial uncertainty? How? That's the part I don't understand. Everyone wants to tell us we have no money and we fear for the future. But surely the same should apply to all football clubs in the world.

Not saying we will get Sancho, or not. I hope we get him. It's just unfortunate that it's so hard for us to get a deal.
For one other clubs aren't spending big either and secondly the article is making the point that unlike say Dortmund United can't just say they'll take the losses, because they signed obligations to constantly post profits.
However even if all this is true everyone is aware of the current pandemic and United wouldn't be the first to get cut some slack from their creditors.