Jadon Sancho| Staying at Dortmund for now

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El-Manos

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Subjective. Club with its pulse on actual income to expense situation may deem the value lower.
Not to say value of 160-200m itself are inflated.
The market has been inflated for many years though. Covid might actually slowly stop that. The one positive thing this virus might forcefully change.
Sancho however, is the one player I would ”overpay” for, as I think his value will only increase. He’d be a great signing from many perspectives. But I agree that our overspending has to end sooner rather than later.
 

Ali Dia

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How are we poor at PR? That a bizarre statement.

Our recruitment process has had it's issues and been openly remedied. One adjustment was to bring in Matt Judge to lead negotiations



The idea that we're bad at negotiating is largely unfounded or outdated view, that has become a social media meme and regurgitated by people who have no real knowledge of how transfers work.

Nothing you said in the original post is wrong. But Matt Judge - who is far more experienced than yourself, intimately knows the details of this potential transfer and has been in communication with Dortmund - if he thinks this is still on. It's still on. We aren't going to waste time on dead transfers, and we haven't done since his arrival.

Regardless, even if renegotiation's result in nothing, there's still 54 days of the window to go - plenty time
im not talking about Judge. I’m talking about footballing/transfer/budget/contract decisions but since judge arrived we sanctioned Sanchez’s deal and then let him go for free with 2 years left and we gave away miki so about 100 million all in?...We gave Jose a huge new contract only to not back him and pay him 20 million to leave a few months later, we then went back for Maguire a year later for 20 million more than we would have had to pay while Jose was here.... Signed Jones Lingard and Mata up to new deals that make them impossible to move on. DDG highest paid keeper in the world and rumours Henderson is going to be paid as much as other top keepers out there to go out on loan again. Pogba yet to sign a new deal and god knows how all that will turn out over the next few seasons. There’s so much more. When are people going to realise that this “team” is poor when it comes to this stuff. What more evidence do people need?

Bruno? Could have got him in the summer for the same money and not left ourselves short. Looking at Josh king in the jan window after leaving our manager with one striker for a whole seasons worth of football. AWB- Keeping Zahas sell on clause was good business but we probably could have got as effective a RB for much less. It’s just still so all over the place. How fans have any confidence in these people is beyond me. I’m not saying the club isn’t or hasn’t spent enough money. They’ve spent plenty. It’s the idiots they’ve left in charge of the decisions that could have built an amazing team with all the money they’ve wasted. The rest of the world can see that and you expect other clubs to respect them because they have some money an economics degree and a bit of an attitude? Please. Dortmund are run far better than we have been that’s why we lost out on haaland and Bellingham to them and they gave us the runaround on sancho. They knew united would mess about on the price/deal for ages and try and make themselves look good so they sent agents with a firm price instead of meeting up face to face. If this was the Utd of old we’d have snapped those lads up no hassle but players want to wait and see if we can sort out the future of the club before coming here and it’s still a bit of a mess yet we are expecting players to hand in transfer requests to join us?

We are on the up after Bruno signed and Greenwood came through but If anything happens to either and results get patchy we are back to calling for Woodward’s head in a month.
 
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Mihai

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I agree with what you say but I think 120m is already including a “covid” discount. 2 years ago, a player of sancho’s Calibre would go for 160-200m. He’s one of the brightest talents in world football with already proven stats.
Based on what exactly?
 

theklr

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No.
We barely held talks
We were quite involved with his agents , thats how we learned about the image rights problems.

I dont know what you would define as an negotiation, but we were also talking to Juve about the deal.
 

Skåre Willoch

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Borussia Dortmund Annual Report 2019
Borussia Dortmund Q3 Report 2020

Key numbers
Cash reserves 31 Mars 2020 = €18,78m
Cash reserves 31 Mars 2019 = €55,86m
Revolving credit 31 Mars 2020 = €60m

EBIT Q3 = €2.01m (minus €28m from 2018)
EBIT Q1 - Q3 = €7,39m

Net transfer income Q1 - Q3 = €38,98m (Q1-Q3 2019 = €77,22m)
Trade Payables 31 Mars 2020 = €98m (31 Mars 2019 = €60,6m)
Total Trade Payables = €139m


My comments
After reading two annual reports and the latest Q3 2020 report I can easily say that Borussia Dortmund (BD) is a very well managed club with a profitable business plan that make them competitive on highest international level. Buying players cheap and selling with profit is part of their business plan.
But COVID had changed the landscape. In their own words "they are hit hard by COVID and that will affect their future plans".

Sooner or later BD needs fresh cash, probably from player sales or using their revolving credit. Selling Sancho is a easy way to solve their problems and prepare for future financial losses. Keeping Sancho could benefit them short term but long term it will decrease his value. The million dollar question is when is the optimal date to sell him?

At this moment nobody can pay €120m in one installament. Probably not even in two intallament. From what I can see the maximun that Manchester United can pay in 2020 is in the region of €60 - 80M. Above €80m will come with significant short term risk in todays financial climate. From my perspective a package of €60M/€30m/€20m in three years installament is a very good deal for both clubs. BD get close their valuation and MU can afford the deal. If BD wait another season the value of Sancho can easily drop significant because of COVID, only two years left of the contract and if the player dont perform next season to expectations.

My best guess is that BD will sell Sancho soon rather then later if the total offer is close to €120m. Manchester Unted can probably only buy if they can pay the fee in three sensible installments. But as usual future will tell.
Great summary, this.

What does trade payables mean, though?
 

Lash

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Dembele has been a disaster signing for Barcelona, none of those players are the type of players we should even be remotely interested in buying outright.
Yeah, for the price he was bought at for sure and he's had injury issues this season. Him and Coman were ones that would be looked at on loan anyway. Doesn't make those players not talented, just because they're not as talented as Sancho.
 

RkkMan

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That's the point though, it doesn't. Hence why we won't just pay exactly what Dortmund are asking for. We could as easily Cement our place in the top 4 with a couple of good signings without signing Sancho.

We've been linked to a lot of good alternatives, Dembele, Chiesa, Coman.
Coman and Dembele would be good alternatives if they could stay fit for 5 games in a row
We`ve not been linked to Chiesa by any serious tabloid just clickbait papers and even if he was on the list he`s not had a very good season and has mostly played as a SS not as a RW plus Italian players RARELY do well in the PL. Not good alternatives.
 

UncleBob

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We were quite involved with his agents , thats how we learned about the image rights problems.

I dont know what you would define as an negotiation, but we were also talking to Juve about the deal.
Juventus were the ones that proposed the deal when we were arguing with Inter about the fee for Lukaku, ofcourse we were interested and talked to them. Dybala was still on vacation and wasn't a part of those discussions, he arrived back in Italy and spoke to the club about the situation and we were, via Dybalas people, told that he preferred to stay and that's it.
 

FizzyWomack

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What I’m saying is that handing in a transfer request doesn’t force Dortmund’s hand to accept a price from Utd. So what’s the point?

From Sancho’s perspective, he would lose his “loyalty bonus” if he hands in a transfer request which could be a lot of money. It’s why players just sit tight and wait for it to play out.
I hear you. I guess im basing a lot of my stance on the reports that he actually wants to come and join us though.

If he did hand in a transfer request it would obviously make it clear he wants to leave is what im getting at. But like you say you'd expect Dortmund to have sat down and asked him do you want to stay?

Judging from that video of him covering his ears that would leave one to believe he's not fussed about coming here. Or he's just taking the piss one way or another :wenger:
 
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theklr

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Juventus were the ones that proposed the deal when we were arguing with Inter about the fee for Lukaku, ofcourse we were interested and talked to them. Dybala was still on vacation and wasn't a part of those discussions, he arrived back in Italy and spoke to the club about the situation and we were, via Dybalas people, told that he preferred to stay and that's it.
I am quite sure we were talking to the agents and were pretty far advanced with that, but I guess we have to agree to disagree about that.
 

Relevated

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This makes me sceptical if we ever did agree personal terms with Sancho.

Fabrizio has been doing 180s to preserve his credibility.

So it could be that the idea that Sancho has agreed personal terms could just be another ploy to have people hooked.

Its all frankly very annoying now. Either its busy or we've walked away. Which is it already?

Meanwhile, Dortmund have been taking the piss out of us lately. Feck sakes.
A while back there were some journos, or whoever, saying that personal terms are usually agreed prior to the clubs talking so that there are no obstacles afterwards.
 

LuckyScout78

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Buy Federico Chiesa before you go into a new negotiation with them. The power is on the seller side. They know United really want Sancho.
I don’t think United will win premier league next season. Its all about to get top3/4 and win most matches as possible. If United buy Chiesa as new RW and he turn out be really good. Then United is lesser desperate going after Sancho. Because at the situation. I think United have to pay what Dortmund want or the negotiation goes to the last day. It’s in Dortmund favour, the seller.

Chiesa is on Bruno level and price. Around 50 £ mill plus add on.

Of not this summer. Then next

Chiesa - McTom - Pogba/Matic - Martial/Rashford

Next summer

Sancho - McTom - Pogba/Matic - Chiesa.

The transfer wind doesn’t close before October. Why should the buyer showing desperation and hurry up situation?

If i just want to try if Bayern Munich are willing to sell Gnabry for the right price. I would lay on the table a 100 mill € euro take or leave it bid for Gnabry

Gnabry and Sancho are on 100 € euro price. But Federico Chiesa is not a worst winger and creative attacking player for a 50-60 € euro price too. Chiesa will definitely strength United starting line up. Because as a left winger. Chiesa is better than Rashford.

Then you might have this line up. Without Sancho

Greenwood - Bruno - Chiesa

Greenwood, Chiesa and Mata will do good.

If you buy Chiesa. Then United will have clearly a really good left winger too. Chiesa is on Bruno and Mane level. Chiesa is as quick in the head and feets as Bruno. And sane hard work and fighting spirit mentality too.

After Sancho. I can recommend Chiesa for 50-60 € mill euro. As a left winger. A quality insurance. Chiesa is cleary better than James, Perreira and Mata. Chiesa is a level up from those 3. Strength the XI and depth squad.
 

Giggsy13

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I wouldn’t be overly optimistic about this move after reading this:

“The noises from #mufc are that they won't be held to ransom for Jadon Sancho. There is a feeling that wages and agent fees are an obstacle. There's a sense of bemusement in Sancho's camp - making him the highest paid player at the club has never been on the agenda #mulive [sky]”

Now it’s the players wage demands presenting an obstacle. Ed setting up the excuse train when this move fails. We wait until next year and there is no way Sancho chooses us.
 

Denis' cuff

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I wouldn’t be overly optimistic about this move after reading this:

“The noises from #mufc are that they won't be held to ransom for Jadon Sancho. There is a feeling that wages and agent fees are an obstacle. There's a sense of bemusement in Sancho's camp - making him the highest paid player at the club has never been on the agenda #mulive [sky]”

Now it’s the players wage demands presenting an obstacle. Ed setting up the excuse train when this move fails. We wait until next year and there is no way Sancho chooses us.
what evidence is there of “wage demands” other than the usual guesswork/fiction and bs in the media
 

SATA

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The German journos and Fabrizio are saying that personal terms are already completely agreed and the player wants a move to United. I would believe them than the briefs put out by United to the UK media to suit whatever narratives they have. That is just me though
 

onemanarmy

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Buy Federico Chiesa before you go into a new negotiation with them. The power is on the seller side. They know United really want Sancho.
I don’t think United will win premier league next season. Its all about to get top3/4 and win most matches as possible. If United buy Chiesa as new RW and he turn out be really good. Then United is lesser desperate going after Sancho. Because at the situation. I think United have to pay what Dortmund want or the negotiation goes to the last day. It’s in Dortmund favour, the seller.

Chiesa is on Bruno level and price. Around 50 £ mill plus add on.

Of not this summer. Then next

Chiesa - McTom - Pogba/Matic - Martial/Rashford

Next summer

Sancho - McTom - Pogba/Matic - Chiesa.

The transfer wind doesn’t close before October. Why should the buyer showing desperation and hurry up situation?

If i just want to try if Bayern Munich are willing to sell Gnabry for the right price. I would lay on the table a 100 mill € euro take or leave it bid for Gnabry

Gnabry and Sancho are on 100 € euro price. But Federico Chiesa is not a worst winger and creative attacking player for a 50-60 € euro price too. Chiesa will definitely strength United starting line up. Because as a left winger. Chiesa is better than Rashford.

Then you might have this line up. Without Sancho

Greenwood - Bruno - Chiesa

Greenwood, Chiesa and Mata will do good.

If you buy Chiesa. Then United will have clearly a really good left winger too. Chiesa is on Bruno and Mane level. Chiesa is as quick in the head and feets as Bruno. And sane hard work and fighting spirit mentality too.

After Sancho. I can recommend Chiesa for 50-60 € mill euro. As a left winger. A quality insurance. Chiesa is cleary better than James, Perreira and Mata. Chiesa is a level up from those 3. Strength the XI and depth squad.
This post is such a mess.

Chiesa is on Bruno level and price. Around 50 £ mill plus add on.
Chiesa is not on Bruno's level. Far from it.

The transfer wind doesn’t close before October. Why should the buyer showing desperation and hurry up situation?
You want a player as soon as possible, to integrate him in the squad quickly.

If i just want to try if Bayern Munich are willing to sell Gnabry for the right price
They won't.

Chiesa is better than Rashford.
He isn't.

Chiesa is on Bruno and Mane level.
He isn't.

Really, this is such a WUM post.
 

romufc

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We surely could sell Pogba for £120m, Martial I'm not sure though.
This is my point, we would want £120m for Pogba, why would we accept £60/70m

This is exactly what Dortmund are saying, we can get £108m for him, next summer if not this so up to you Manchester United. How badly do you want this player?
 

Skåre Willoch

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Based on what exactly?
Dembele, Joao Felix, Coutinho, even Griezmann.
All of those went for even more money than what we're quoted (Griezmann went for the same).
None of them has shown such a high ceiling talent wise, or even close to similar numbers as Sancho.

Let's take Joao Felix as an example, as their situations are very similar.

Felix league numbers for Benfica 18/19: 26 games, 1746 minutes, 15 goals, 9 assists. That's really impressive numbers, but the Liga NOS is arguably a weaker league than the Bundesliga.
Felix league numbers for Atletico 19/20: 27 games, 1735 minutes, 6 goals, 1 assist. Not impressive at all, really.
League stats total: 3481 minutes, 21 goals, 10 assists. 112 minutes per goal involvement.

Sancho for Dortmund 18/19: 34 games, 2460 minutes, 12 goals, 17 assists. Very impressive. Insane, actually.
Sancho for Dortmund 19/20: 32 games, 2290 minutes, 17 goals, 17 assists. Even better.
League stats total: 4750 minutes, 29 goals, 34 assists. 75 minutes per goal involvement.


Again, Felix cost €126m based on that 1 (!) season in Portugal. A logical conclusion should be that Sancho is worth more, no? Quite a bit more, even?

I think €120m for Sancho is including a Covid discount. I reckon he'd be priced much higher in a normal summer window.
 

Lynty

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United were blatantly in negotiations for Perisic though. In fact we were rumoured to have agreed a fee for him and tried to change it too, as has now been rumoured regarding Sancho. There’s also more to negotiations than just eventually signing the player. Yes, we signed Maguire. But we signed him a few days before the end of the window when if we’d stopped fecking about we could’ve signed him sooner and then maybe moved on to the attacker that we desperately needed and had to wait until January for. Which almost ruined our entire season.

There’s also the issue with the fact we put all our eggs in one basket and seemingly can only negotiate one thing at a time. The failure to get rid of players that we haven’t wanted for years and even extending their contracts to protect the asset. Woodward is a fecking clown and there’s no way I can agree he’s had four successful transfer windows. At a push I’d say the first year under Mourinho was a a success and last year was an acceptable window.
I'm not talking about Woodward at all. I'm talking about our chief negotiator Matt Judge who - in my limited judgement of his position - has performed well.

I've looked and can't find much mention of agreeing a fee and changing it with Perisic.

im not talking about Judge. I’m talking about footballing/transfer/budget/contract decisions but since judge arrived we sanctioned Sanchez’s deal and then let him go for free with 2 years left and we gave away miki so about 100 million all in?...We gave Jose a huge new contract only to not back him and pay him 20 million to leave a few months later, we then went back for Maguire a year later for 20 million more than we would have had to pay while Jose was here.... Signed Jones Lingard and Mata up to new deals that make them impossible to move on. DDG highest paid keeper in the world and rumours Henderson is going to be paid as much as other top keepers out there to go out on loan again. Pogba yet to sign a new deal and god knows how all that will turn out over the next few seasons. There’s so much more. When are people going to realise that this “team” is poor when it comes to this stuff. What more evidence do people need?

Bruno? Could have got him in the summer for the same money and not left ourselves short. Looking at Josh king in the jan window after leaving our manager with one striker for a whole seasons worth of football. AWB- Keeping Zahas sell on clause was good business but we probably could have got as effective a RB for much less. It’s just still so all over the place. How fans have any confidence in these people is beyond me. I’m not saying the club isn’t or hasn’t spent enough money. They’ve spent plenty. It’s the idiots they’ve left in charge of the decisions that could have built an amazing team with all the money they’ve wasted. The rest of the world can see that and you expect other clubs to respect them because they have some money an economics degree and a bit of an attitude? Please. Dortmund are run far better than we have been that’s why we lost out on haaland and Bellingham to them and they gave us the runaround on sancho. They knew united would mess about on the price/deal for ages and try and make themselves look good so they sent agents with a firm price instead of meeting up face to face. If this was the Utd of old we’d have snapped those lads up no hassle but players want to wait and see if we can sort out the future of the club before coming here and it’s still a bit of a mess yet we are expecting players to hand in transfer requests to join us?

We are on the up after Bruno signed and Greenwood came through but If anything happens to either and results get patchy we are back to calling for Woodward’s head in a month.
You've twisted my reasoning and gone on a tangent on how the club is mismanaged. Which is incredibly easy in hindsight.

All i'm saying is that Matt Judge is competent enough to realize if it's worth pursuing this deal, or it's dead in the water.
 

lsd

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Buy Federico Chiesa before you go into a new negotiation with them. The power is on the seller side. They know United really want Sancho.
I don’t think United will win premier league next season. Its all about to get top3/4 and win most matches as possible. If United buy Chiesa as new RW and he turn out be really good. Then United is lesser desperate going after Sancho. Because at the situation. I think United have to pay what Dortmund want or the negotiation goes to the last day. It’s in Dortmund favour, the seller.

Chiesa is on Bruno level and price. Around 50 £ mill plus add on.

Of not this summer. Then next

Chiesa - McTom - Pogba/Matic - Martial/Rashford

Next summer

Sancho - McTom - Pogba/Matic - Chiesa.

The transfer wind doesn’t close before October. Why should the buyer showing desperation and hurry up situation?

If i just want to try if Bayern Munich are willing to sell Gnabry for the right price. I would lay on the table a 100 mill € euro take or leave it bid for Gnabry

Gnabry and Sancho are on 100 € euro price. But Federico Chiesa is not a worst winger and creative attacking player for a 50-60 € euro price too. Chiesa will definitely strength United starting line up. Because as a left winger. Chiesa is better than Rashford.

Then you might have this line up. Without Sancho

Greenwood - Bruno - Chiesa

Greenwood, Chiesa and Mata will do good.

If you buy Chiesa. Then United will have clearly a really good left winger too. Chiesa is on Bruno and Mane level. Chiesa is as quick in the head and feets as Bruno. And sane hard work and fighting spirit mentality too.

After Sancho. I can recommend Chiesa for 50-60 € mill euro. As a left winger. A quality insurance. Chiesa is cleary better than James, Perreira and Mata. Chiesa is a level up from those 3. Strength the XI and depth squad.

You know Football Manager is just a game ?
 

elnorte

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Judging from that video of him covering his ears that would leave one to believe he's not fussed about coming here. Or he's just taking the piss one way or another :wenger:
Or happy either way. Or pleased he'll get the opportunity he craves which is a move to Chelsea next summer.
 

TheReligion

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I wouldn’t be overly optimistic about this move after reading this:

“The noises from #mufc are that they won't be held to ransom for Jadon Sancho. There is a feeling that wages and agent fees are an obstacle. There's a sense of bemusement in Sancho's camp - making him the highest paid player at the club has never been on the agenda #mulive [sky]”

Now it’s the players wage demands presenting an obstacle. Ed setting up the excuse train when this move fails. We wait until next year and there is no way Sancho chooses us.
I tend to believe what Romano and Falk say to be honest. It's been consistent throughout that personal terms are agreed.
 

TheReligion

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I hear you. I guess im basing a lot of my stance on the reports that he actually wants to come and join us though.

If he did hand in a transfer request it would obviously make it clear he wants to leave is what im getting at. But like you say you'd expect Dortmund to have sat down and asked him do you want to stay?

Judging from that video of him covering his ears that would leave one to believe he's not fussed about coming here. Or he's just taking the piss one way or another :wenger:
He's copying Depays celebration for doing the paneka. That's why he's covering his ears and tags Depay in the video!
 

acnumber9

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I'm not talking about Woodward at all. I'm talking about our chief negotiator Matt Judge who - in my limited judgement of his position - has performed well.

I've looked and can't find much mention of agreeing a fee and changing it with Perisic.



You've twisted my reasoning and gone on a tangent on how the club is mismanaged. Which is incredibly easy in hindsight.

All i'm saying is that Matt Judge is competent enough to realize if it's worth pursuing this deal, or it's dead in the water.
But Woodward is involved in the negotiations too. They work together and Woodward is the one who signs off on anything. I don’t see how our last four transfer windows can be considered successful but if you do then nothing I say will change your view.
 

cyberman

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This is my point, we would want £120m for Pogba, why would we accept £60/70m

This is exactly what Dortmund are saying, we can get £108m for him, next summer if not this so up to you Manchester United. How badly do you want this player?
I keep seeing this. Why is next summer any different than this? Clubs will have lost more money by then.
 

Lash

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Coman and Dembele would be good alternatives if they could stay fit for 5 games in a row
We`ve not been linked to Chiesa by any serious tabloid just clickbait papers and even if he was on the list he`s not had a very good season and has mostly played as a SS not as a RW plus Italian players RARELY do well in the PL. Not good alternatives.
Of course, I don't want to sign them to just be unfit.
We have been linked via La Nazione, which is a Florence based paper, that most people jumped on after. He's had a fine season and can play across the front line as seen with his time with the national team. 10 goals annd 6 assist is a good haul, considering he's playing in a poor team. The bold part is just a myth.
 

romufc

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I keep seeing this. Why is next summer any different than this? Clubs will have lost more money by then.
It is all assumptions. It could be different or it couldn't. If I was in Dortmund's shoes, I would 100% take the risk next summer. they have 1 team in for Sancho next summer, whatever happens they know Manutd will be in for him again anyway, so even if 1 more club comes in, it is only a benefit to them.

Teams will have had 1 more season to prepare their finances.
 

Lynty

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But Woodward is involved in the negotiations too. They work together and Woodward is the one who signs off on anything. I don’t see how our last four transfer windows can be considered successful but if you do then nothing I say will change your view.
I'm not saying they were. Transfer business will always be a personal opinion.

My original point was that Matt Judge (and I'll include Woodward in this if I must) are experienced and competent enough to realize if any further negotiation with Dortmund is pointless, like a lot of people are suggesting. If we are still trying to negotiate (and I have no idea) it's because they know that Dortmund are bluffing there is still a deal to be done. And if not, there's plenty of time before we have to move on.
 
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