Jadon Sancho| Staying at Dortmund for now

Status
Not open for further replies.

0le

Full Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2017
Messages
3,853
Location
UK
He is a former "reddit ITK" - basically a nobody. He "predicted" the timing of certain press releases, probably because the information was leaked somewhere. He doesn't know anything.
 

Offside

Euro 2016 sweepstake winner
Joined
Jun 9, 2012
Messages
20,921
Location
Yorkshire
You can just see he’s repeating the same guesswork that others have been making for weeks. Absolute bollocks.
 

VP89

Pogba's biggest fan
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
18,488
We paid a lot of money for Wan Bissaka roughly around the initial reported fee so I dont believe it did

My main point really was that this isnt something new due to the pendemic. This is how we have operated with transfers I am yet to see it work. Maybe you could argue it worked with Bruno Fernandes but we also signed him about 7 months late
The pandemic changes the entire dynamic of transfers, so I wouldn't blame us for scoffing at 120m EUR upfront when every club in the world needs to hold on to cash.
Also didn't Palace want more + taking away the Zaha sell-on fee, which we negotiated down from?
 

reddevilchennai

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2019
Messages
424
I sometimes wonder if we don't have the pulling power of Real Madrid. If Real Madrid really wants a player, they mostly get him. Please don't come up with Degea and Pogba. Yeah, even Degea and Pogba were making noises how a move to Real Madrid would be their dream move.

If we signed only Sancho this window, I could accept this as a good window and the club showing its intention to back the manager and to assemble a team to challenge for title in two to three years. If we don't sign him, we as a fans should make sure that Glazersout to be trending in twitter everyday.
 

AaronRedDevil

Full Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2018
Messages
5,264
Think it’s time to cut the lost, United aren’t going to pay 120m up front, they seems very adamant about that and Dortmund are unlikely to change that. Might as well use the time and money to bulk up the squad and get a temporary right mid. Because it doesn’t seem like united are even going after another player IF They get Sancho. It would have been done by now if they expected this pushback.
 

Cassidy

No longer at risk of being mistaken for a Scouser
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
22,406
The pandemic changes the entire dynamic of transfers, so I wouldn't blame us for scoffing at 120m EUR upfront when every club in the world needs to hold on to cash.
Also didn't Palace want more + taking away the Zaha sell-on fee, which we negotiated down from?
The original reported AWB fee is what we ended up paying.

Im not speaking of the pandemic. Im speaking of your suggestion on the negotiation tactic of leaving the signing till the last minute. Which we have already seen has not worked for us. So even if we do have these financial assessors and that what we have been doing. Evidence suggests it has not been working. Time will telL If we don’t sign Sancho it points more to the fact the pandemic hit us in the pocket
 

VP89

Pogba's biggest fan
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
18,488
The original reported AWB fee is what we ended up paying.

Im not speaking of the pandemic. Im speaking of your suggestion on the negotiation tactic of leaving the signing till the last minute. Which we have already seen has not worked for us. So even if we do have these financial assessors and that what we have been doing. Evidence suggests it has not been working. Time will telL If we don’t sign Sancho it points more to the fact the pandemic hit us in the pocket
I was always speaking about the pandemic. My initial post was related to the current environment and how badly it will affect Dortmund. How we would have likely made a thorough risk analysis on their willingness and ability to hold on to Sancho in light of having no certainty on when fans can enter the stadium, a revenue they depend on massively. I also said that 120m eur upfront in this environment is a big ask and to be honest, any big club will scoff at that for a few weeks let alone us.

You're the one who brought in non pandemic environments to draw parallels to this, which simply doesn't apply. And with Wan Bissaka, I'm quite sure it was well reported that Palace asked us to wipe off the Zaha sell-on clause as part of the deal which we weren't having. The agreed deal ultimately kept the Zaha sell-on clause intact.

Daniel Story himself mentioned that our tactic to delay a deal and negotiate down transfers worked in the case of AWB but not in Maguire, and I'd believe him over you to be honest.
 

Eckers99

Michael Corleone says hello
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
4,933
I sometimes wonder if we don't have the pulling power of Real Madrid. If Real Madrid really wants a player, they mostly get him. Please don't come up with Degea and Pogba. Yeah, even Degea and Pogba were making noises how a move to Real Madrid would be their dream move.

If we signed only Sancho this window, I could accept this as a good window and the club showing its intention to back the manager and to assemble a team to challenge for title in two to three years. If we don't sign him, we as a fans should make sure that Glazersout to be trending in twitter everyday.
I can help with that - we don't.
 

Cassidy

No longer at risk of being mistaken for a Scouser
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
22,406
I was always speaking about the pandemic. My initial post was related to the current environment and how badly it will affect Dortmund. How we would have likely made a thorough risk analysis on their willingness and ability to hold on to Sancho in light of having no certainty on when fans can enter the stadium, a revenue they depend on massively. I also said that 120m eur upfront in this environment is a big ask and to be honest, any big club will scoff at that for a few weeks let alone us.

You're the one who brought in non pandemic environments to draw parallels to this, which simply doesn't apply. And with Wan Bissaka, I'm quite sure it was well reported that Palace asked us to wipe off the Zaha sell-on clause as part of the deal which we weren't having. The agreed deal ultimately kept the Zaha sell-on clause intact.

Daniel Story himself mentioned that our tactic to delay a deal and negotiate down transfers worked in the case of AWB but not in Maguire, and I'd believe him over you to be honest.
Yes and its very relevant giving our handling of transfers and the parallels in attempting to negotiate via time. Which is why time will tell. If we sign Sancho at the end of the window and end up paying the original price pretty sure that would indicate more parallels to Maguire and AWB

With regards to AWB its possible that they asked for the clause to be removed around that time also reports came out about a 70m fee. However at the very start the fee was always 45-50m asking price.

If we don't sign Sancho that would indicate the pandemic hit us in the pocket.

The only scenario which would point to your theory being validated would be us signing Sancho below 120m euros this summer is what I am pointing out
 

Cloud7

Full Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Messages
7,241
I sometimes wonder if we don't have the pulling power of Real Madrid. If Real Madrid really wants a player, they mostly get him. Please don't come up with Degea and Pogba. Yeah, even Degea and Pogba were making noises how a move to Real Madrid would be their dream move.

If we signed only Sancho this window, I could accept this as a good window and the club showing its intention to back the manager and to assemble a team to challenge for title in two to three years. If we don't sign him, we as a fans should make sure that Glazersout to be trending in twitter everyday.
The only club with the pulling power of Real Madrid is Barcelona. When those two clubs come calling every player listens. They're considered the absolute pinnacle of football by 99% of people close to the game. It is what it is. There's nothing wrong with admitting that. Even at our best times we don't have their pulling power, but no other club does, and us and the other clubs have done fine without having it.
 

Steve Bruce

Full Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
710
I can help with that - we don't.
I actually think it's our lack of skill in transfer more than anything else.

Chelsea are no where near as big a club as United but they are able to making big signings with little fuss.

It's our negotiation team that's the issue not Uniteds pulling power
 

Bubz27

No I won’t change your tag line
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
18,073
Did you ask why Ed said? Why would I be speculating and you are not?

When your argument is the only owners only care about the Champions League money, it would be counter intuitive for the club to invest as heavily as it had.
I took a direct quote. Didn't infer anything from it, literally looked at the words he said. You can speculate he did it to appease shareholders or that he genuinely means it.

And I've already answered your second point really. We've spent heavily only in the seasons when we didn't finish in the top 4. The seasons when we did finish in top 4, we didn't invest as much. Now's my time to speculate, but the easiest inference to make at that point is CL qualification is enough. We finished 2nd under Jose and signed Fred, Dalot and Grant. That's not indicative of an ownership wanting to turn 2nd into 1st.

Rereading your second paragraph more closely, maybe I should rephrase what I originally said. It isn't just CL money I think they care about, it's what comes with it. Adidas money, more attractive sponsorship deals etc.

I've seen nothing from this board that suggests they truly care about sporting success, and that includes United and Tampa Bay.
 

ShinjiNinja26

Full Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Messages
4,303
Location
Location, Location
Yeah this ain’t happening by the looks of it. 768 pages of a whole lot of nothing, by the end of the window this could be a caf record for biggest thread on a player we don’t end up signing. :lol::(
 

VP89

Pogba's biggest fan
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
18,488
Yes and its very relevant giving our handling of transfers and the parallels in attempting to negotiate via time. Which is why time will tell. If we sign Sancho at the end of the window and end up paying the original price pretty sure that would indicate more parallels to Maguire and AWB
It's not relevant. This transfer window is a completely different environment where clubs are within their rights to refrain from upfront payments. You're saying that we should just pay up for Sancho now because it didn't work with Maguire, and ignoring the fact that calling Dortmund's bluff is more likely to succeed in an environment where they are making losses and need cash. Any club will be drawing this transfer out, especially if the stumbling block is 120m eur UPFRONT.

And no, it's not a parallel to AWB, because we negotiated down on the deal.
With regards to AWB its possible that they asked for the clause to be removed around that time also reports came out about a 70m fee. However at the very start the fee was always 45-50m asking price.

If we don't sign Sancho that would indicate the pandemic hit us in the pocket.

The only scenario which would point to your theory being validated would be us signing Sancho below 120m euros this summer is what I am pointing out
I've already pointed to very well journalist, affiliated with The Athletic, stating the tactic of drawing out deals to negotiate them down worked with Wan Bissaka. It's not just about the total fee, that's an extremely simplistic evaluation. It's also down to the structure and the clauses. It's likely the fee may have been the same but we were negotiating more favorable structures. This is likely the sticking point on Sancho (not necessarily 120m, but how we pay this amount. If we agree on 120m at the end it doesn't suddenly mean we succumbed. We would need to hear reports about the structure and how the payment schedule worked. If we ended up paying 120m EUR upfront in the end, then yeah we probably had to succumb to what Dortmund always wanted. If not, negotiating over the months worked for us.
If we sign Sancho at the end of the window and end up paying the original price pretty sure that would indicate more parallels to Maguire and AWB
As above, its not just about agreeing a fee, but also how its paid and the clauses attached.
 
Last edited:

fps

Full Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
4,528
I actually think it's our lack of skill in transfer more than anything else.

Chelsea are no where near as big a club as United but they are able to making big signings with little fuss.

It's our negotiation team that's the issue not Uniteds pulling power
It's colder, and the lifestyle isn't as enjoyable for those from further south especially.
 

Eckers99

Michael Corleone says hello
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
4,933
I actually think it's our lack of skill in transfer more than anything else.

Chelsea are no where near as big a club as United but they are able to making big signings with little fuss.

It's our negotiation team that's the issue not Uniteds pulling power
The question wasn't 'Do we have appeal?', it was 'Do we have the same appeal as Real?'

We've still got pulling power and should be able to get most of our targets but we didn't quite have the appeal of Real even during the Fergie years, so we definitely don't now.

You're right about our negotiators being part of the problem though. It's the same pattern being repeated in every window.
 

ivaldo

Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?
Joined
Nov 15, 2012
Messages
26,707
I took a direct quote. Didn't infer anything from it, literally looked at the words he said. You can speculate he did it to appease shareholders or that he genuinely means it.

And I've already answered your second point really. We've spent heavily only in the seasons when we didn't finish in the top 4. The seasons when we did finish in top 4, we didn't invest as much. Now's my time to speculate, but the easiest inference to make at that point is CL qualification is enough. We finished 2nd under Jose and signed Fred, Dalot and Grant. That's not indicative of an ownership wanting to turn 2nd into 1st.

Rereading your second paragraph more closely, maybe I should rephrase what I originally said. It isn't just CL money I think they care about, it's what comes with it. Adidas money, more attractive sponsorship deals etc.

I've seen nothing from this board that suggests they truly care about sporting success, and that includes United and Tampa Bay.
I think we need to make a distinction here. Do they actually care about the achievement of winning the league or success of the club? No they don't.

What they care able is the financial gain associated with winning those things. They'll be keenly aware that a big part of our brand is being successful. If we don't find success, then our brand becomes weaker, and we lose an element of profitability. Invariably, the clubs that bring in the most money are the ones with the most success. Having history and cultural significance can help maintain the image, but ultimately, success is what keeps you at the top.
 

Bubz27

No I won’t change your tag line
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
18,073
I think we need to make a distinction here. Do they actually care about the achievement of winning the league or success of the club? No they don't.

What they care able is the financial gain associated with winning those things. They'll be keenly aware that a big part of our brand is being successful. If we don't find success, then our brand becomes weaker, and we lose an element of profitability. Invariably, the clubs that bring in the most money are the ones with the most success. Having history and cultural significance can help maintain the image, but ultimately, success is what keeps you at the top.
I totally agree with you on that. It's pretty basic. Success = money.

But I'll always go back to that quote. Ed clearly says on pitch success does not affect financial 'success'. The reason we've got to that point is because of on field success over the last 30 years. But it will stop at some point if we don't start winning proper trophies again.

And for reasons I've stated, I don't believe they care about winning big trophies. I believe they care about CL qualification because it keeps us relevant. Slows down the decline.
 

ShinjiNinja26

Full Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Messages
4,303
Location
Location, Location
I actually think it's our lack of skill in transfer more than anything else.

Chelsea are no where near as big a club as United but they are able to making big signings with little fuss.

It's our negotiation team that's the issue not Uniteds pulling power
Tbf I get as frustrated as anyone with the way United operates in the transfer market but we’re talking about a different calibre of player here. there’s making “big” signings of £40-50m players and then there’s making “elite” level signings of over £100m players, there’s a big difference.
 

sammsky1

Pochettino's #1 fan
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
32,841
Location
London
Wish the social media team had the cop out to file this away and you know actually use it if we do somehow sign Sancho. Then it would break the internet.

Instead they waste it on a goal of the day post and its about as stupid as Arsenals Emery at the wheel crap.
What’s is amazing about the phrase ‘you love to see it’?
 

UncleBob

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2014
Messages
4,197
The key remit of the Saudi PIF is to diversify away from the reliance on oil revenues, to long-term benefit financially from investments throughout the world, in pretty much every sector of business.

They wanted to profit from the football club as much as any owner
:lol:
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
9,320
Location
Germany
Another opportunity for the body language experts to do some analysis coming up in 15 minutes:

[/img]
 

Sparky Rhiwabon

Full Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
11,987
The problem is, this saga (always a saga with us) is holding us up from moving onto other signings we need to make.
 

Himannv

Full Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2017
Messages
3,295
Location
Somewhere in the draft forum
I hear what you're saying and these are big figures of money to be throwing around but we would still be left with 42M for a CB. And if we offload some deadwood we'd obviously have a bit more to spend too.

Just adding Sancho to the squad would make a huge difference. Bargain if you ask me.

EDIT : just seen my previous post, brilliant mate thats tickled me :D wouldn't put it past The Glazers!
:lol:

I wondered if you would notice.

I agree with you though. I'd rather we sign him but I just don't think we will unless Sancho himself pushes for this or some aspect of the deal changes drastically. That seems unlikely as well unfortunately.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.