James Garner to Nottingham Forest - Loan watch 2020-21

BR7

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Providing a good environment for young players to get into the first team is clearly something that can be largely credited to the combination of Ole and Butt. The rest of the work in terms of getting the right coaches, scouts, players and facilities in the academy is clearly largely down to other people. No one person can make an academy amazing though, it has to be a team effort and Ole must be at least partly involved.
Again fair comment, you’d be stupid not to give mason a go tbh he was that good. But to say ole built the academy and should receive kudos for other people’s work, I’m not down with that
 

RUCK4444

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Again fair comment, you’d be stupid not to give mason a go tbh he was that good. But to say ole built the academy and should receive kudos for other people’s work, I’m not down with that
It’s clear though that Ole has a intent to focus more on our youth players than we have since SAF left.

The responsibility of ensuring the standards are high and the inclination to want to promote youth players you have to give the manager credit for.

He’s said since he took over that’s it’s something he wanted to focus on so it’s not fair to dismiss any involvement from Ole.

Unlike other teams we still don’t have a DOF. There’s no real structure above Ole to implement a top academy. We are still a club where whatever the manager says goes and he gives the steer on all areas of the playing staff, so the academy was there to either focus on or neglect when Ole took over.
 

rotherham_red

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Don’t take it personally, you seem to be. I can’t credit Ole for it, it’s like saying Rome wasn’t built by Romulus and Remus and made great by Caesar etc but by the more modern day Italian presidents. Im hoping you can see who I’m crediting for man Utd being in this strong position as a gargantuan football club. It ain’t ole that’s for sure. He in fact gets zero credit for our youth system. Next you’ll be telling me you built Big Ben because you we’re near it.
He actually makes use of the talents that we're providing him. That was something that was a massive concern for the board when they sacked Jose, and indeed it was something that was brought forward as one of the reasons for the sacking. A great youth team means diddly squat if the talent it produces isn't used. Otherwise, we would be no better than City or Chelsea.

Credit goes to Ole for handling the talents that have forged their way in to the first team picture. The likes of Williams, Greenwood, Shoretire, Diallo, etc are just as much the fruits of his endeavours, as they are the Academy's (in the case of Diallo, Atalanta's). The transition from youth team to first team is the most difficult and I could go on for literally years just reeling off the names of players who I thought would do something at first team level but ultimately ended up not amounting to much.

Creating an environment where young and precocious talent can thrive in such a pressurised environment is all on Ole, and for that he deserves credit. There's a reason, after all, why the Co92 was termed Fergie's Fledglings and not Harrison's Heroes, for example...
 

BR7

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He actually makes use of the talents that we're providing him. That was something that was a massive concern for the board when they sacked Jose, and indeed it was something that was brought forward as one of the reasons for the sacking. A great youth team means diddly squat if the talent it produces isn't used. Otherwise, we would be no better than City or Chelsea.

Credit goes to Ole for handling the talents that have forged their way in to the first team picture. The likes of Williams, Greenwood, Shoretire, Diallo, etc are just as much the fruits of his endeavours, as they are the Academy's (in the case of Diallo, Atalanta's). The transition from youth team to first team is the most difficult and I could go on for literally years just reeling off the names of players who I thought would do something at first team level but ultimately ended up not amounting to much.

Creating an environment where young and precocious talent can thrive in such a pressurised environment is all on Ole, and for that he deserves credit. There's a reason, after all, why the Co92 was termed Fergie's Fledglings and not Harrison's Heroes, for example...
Good post, Harrison is a hero though RIP. I mean there is some credit but it needs to be tempered with reality. I expect all managers to give our youth a chance (not as much as LVG did) if you’re good enough you’re old enough etc but again, it’s kind of the bare minimum and Jose well he doesn’t trust youth.

I am staggered at some young posters trying to hijack the youth system as ole’s new fandangled thing. Before ole, there were others who actually won things and it’s effing insulting to read them.
 

Inigo Montoya

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Don’t take it personally, you seem to be. I can’t credit Ole for it, it’s like saying Rome wasn’t built by Romulus and Remus and made great by Caesar etc but by the more modern day Italian presidents. Im hoping you can see who I’m crediting for man Utd being in this strong position as a gargantuan football club. It ain’t ole that’s for sure. He in fact gets zero credit for our youth system. Next you’ll be telling me you built Big Ben because you we’re near it.
Wow, how to build a debate on our youth system; introduce Big Ben and Romulus and Remus. :lol:

Doesn't need ridiculing,you've done that yourself with minimum effort.

PS: it's 'were'not 'we're.'
 

BR7

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Rather than dis credit him, which is the problem with so many fans(not all of course), how about giving credit to who you think is responsible,or is that astretch too far for you?
Have you read the posts since yours. Adults having a conversation rather than you trying to mimic my post.
Wow, how to build a debate on our youth system; introduce Big Ben and Romulus and Remus. :lol:

Doesn't need ridiculing,you've done that yourself with minimum effort.

PS: it's 'were'not 'we're.'
good one, I’ll try and not lose any sleep inigo.
 

Inigo Montoya

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Have you read the posts since yours. Adults having a conversation rather than you trying to mimic my post.

good one, I’ll try and not lose any sleep inigo.
Adult, that's a stretch too far for you :lol:
 

Inigo Montoya

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Again mate, you’re just all mouth and no trousers. So again you can sit and say what you want, you’re just a little lady who is seen but not heard. Shout away ms inigo
Little lady? Now we know the level of your criticism;facile, sexist and crass. If you use the comparison to a woman as an insult then you've revealed much about you...none of it good
 

AJ VII

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Getting subbed on after 87 min. Hopefully they just rested him since they have an important game against Derby already on Friday.

Nottingham have been the better team in the second half, with his replacement Yates scoring a goal from offside position.

Suprised to see former youth player Olusunde playing for the opponent Rotherham as well.
 

LovelyLittlePanda

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It’s clear though that Ole has a intent to focus more on our youth players than we have since SAF left.

The responsibility of ensuring the standards are high and the inclination to want to promote youth players you have to give the manager credit for.

He’s said since he took over that’s it’s something he wanted to focus on so it’s not fair to dismiss any involvement from Ole.

Unlike other teams we still don’t have a DOF. There’s no real structure above Ole to implement a top academy. We are still a club where whatever the manager says goes and he gives the steer on all areas of the playing staff, so the academy was there to either focus on or neglect when Ole took over.
Since LVG*
That man literally gave everyone from the U23 a chance. Too bad most of them weren't good enough.

I like Ole's dedication to playing youngsters. It's important to the identity of the club and sets United and Barcelona apart from the other football giants like Madrid or Juventus.

You really can't give him credit for building the current academy though. That's a decade long process that involves multiple coaches and scouts.
 

Champagne Football

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Since LVG*
That man literally gave everyone from the U23 a chance. Too bad most of them weren't good enough.

I like Ole's dedication to playing youngsters. It's important to the identity of the club and sets United and Barcelona apart from the other football giants like Madrid or Juventus.

You really can't give him credit for building the current academy though. That's a decade long process that involves multiple coaches and scouts.
There's a lot wrong with your comment. Promoting kids from the academy is a very skilled task. Any clown can give every kid in the academy their debut to make it look like they are promoting youth. But actually spotting talent when they are ready, slowly developing and playing them in the right moments, is a skill very few managers at giant clubs have. Van Gaal only gave youth a chance to try and save his own ass, hoping the board would fall for it and think he needed much more time.

Academy kids in general are best added to the match day squad in games that Utd are expected to win where they can slowly build up their confidence. If the team is a total laughing stock then you run the risk of destroying a talented kids fragile confidence before his career has even started.

Ole can take credit for the academy because under his watch we have been able to attract some really talented youngsters based on a guaranteed path to the first team, as well as knowing that they will be allowed to express themselves in a team playing attacking football. It's unlikely Amad and Mejbri etc would have signed had Jose still been in charge as they would have been watching Mourinho on TV throwing Rashford and Shaw under a bus every time the team lost, with the likes of Greenwood not getting chances at all in the first XI, and they'd be thinking there's simply no chance I'm signing for that club.

Van Gaal signed a bunch of kids for the academy but none of them worked out. He also got rid of 2 of the most talented kids at the club in Zaha and Michael Keane. You compare that to kids signed under Ole's watch - Joe Hugill, Charlie McNeill, Mejbri, Kambwala, Amad and it becomes clear that Ole has been a revelation for the academy, working closely with the scouts to spot kids with Utd DNA, which isn't surprising considering the last time we won the FA youth cup in 2011, a certain Mr. Ole was in charge of the team.
 

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Since LVG*
That man literally gave everyone from the U23 a chance. Too bad most of them weren't good enough.

I like Ole's dedication to playing youngsters. It's important to the identity of the club and sets United and Barcelona apart from the other football giants like Madrid or Juventus.

You really can't give him credit for building the current academy though. That's a decade long process that involves multiple coaches and scouts.
LVG gave a lot of chances, to his credit. He failed with developing players further. You could say Martial was his Januzaj, and injuries gave him Rashford a bit early as his James Wilson. I’m not sure he was to good at developing the young players, but he helped them look better than they were due to his systematic detailed approach, similar to at AZ 67. But everyone bar Rashford struggled afterwards.

Solskjær didn’t start the rejuvenation process at United, I think actually David Moyes was involved in that, pointing to that the system needed a look-over. He didn’t get too involved in that, nor did Van Gaal and certainly not Mourinho, but a slow process of identifying problems and putting in place new people and new structures were building in a parallell world to the first team. Solskjær did, however, speed it up a few notches, demanded it was given even more priority from what I gather, and has taken several steps to make close bonds between the first team and youth teams when it comes to number of coaches, coaches overlapping, first teamers following up the youngsters, development meetings and hospitant trainers like Evra and Fletcher. I think the proximity to the first team world for Sbragia and Wood respectively is like night and day.
 

LovelyLittlePanda

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There's a lot wrong with your comment. Promoting kids from the academy is a very skilled task. Any clown can give every kid in the academy their debut to make it look like they are promoting youth. But actually spotting talent when they are ready, slowly developing and playing them in the right moments, is a skill very few managers at giant clubs have. Van Gaal only gave youth a chance to try and save his own ass, hoping the board would fall for it and think he needed much more time.

Academy kids in general are best added to the match day squad in games that Utd are expected to win where they can slowly build up their confidence. If the team is a total laughing stock then you run the risk of destroying a talented kids fragile confidence before his career has even started.

Ole can take credit for the academy because under his watch we have been able to attract some really talented youngsters based on a guaranteed path to the first team, as well as knowing that they will be allowed to express themselves in a team playing attacking football. It's unlikely Amad and Mejbri etc would have signed had Jose still been in charge as they would have been watching Mourinho on TV throwing Rashford and Shaw under a bus every time the team lost, with the likes of Greenwood not getting chances at all in the first XI, and they'd be thinking there's simply no chance I'm signing for that club.

Van Gaal signed a bunch of kids for the academy but none of them worked out. He also got rid of 2 of the most talented kids at the club in Zaha and Michael Keane. You compare that to kids signed under Ole's watch - Joe Hugill, Charlie McNeill, Mejbri, Kambwala, Amad and it becomes clear that Ole has been a revelation for the academy, working closely with the scouts to spot kids with Utd DNA, which isn't surprising considering the last time we won the FA youth cup in 2011, a certain Mr. Ole was in charge of the team.
This "clown" that you speak of won the champions league with a bunch of 18 year olds, got clean sheet after clean sheet in a world cup with a defense made up of teenagers from mid-table teams in a 2nd bit league and I think you can look up for yourself who he handed their debuts at Barca.

You're making stuff up, it's hard to argue with that:
LVG started to play more youth during an injury crisis after he had intentionally trimmed down the size of the squad. This isn't even debatable. You can look up and see he had no options in certain positions due to injuries.
I seem to recall he managed to get quite a few results with a very bad crop of youngsters that play in league 2 nowadays.

Wrong. A manager that's been here 2 years does not get credit for the academy, that's been built by multiple coaches and scouts over a much longer period.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to see Ole give more attention to the academy, but him having more of an intention to play youth than LVG has yet to be shown. That was the original claim you made and you stand corrected.

See below for an actually informed opinion.

LVG gave a lot of chances, to his credit. He failed with developing players further. You could say Martial was his Januzaj, and injuries gave him Rashford a bit early as his James Wilson. I’m not sure he was to good at developing the young players, but he helped them look better than they were due to his systematic detailed approach, similar to at AZ 67. But everyone bar Rashford struggled afterwards.

Solskjær didn’t start the rejuvenation process at United, I think actually David Moyes was involved in that, pointing to that the system needed a look-over. He didn’t get too involved in that, nor did Van Gaal and certainly not Mourinho, but a slow process of identifying problems and putting in place new people and new structures were building in a parallell world to the first team. Solskjær did, however, speed it up a few notches, demanded it was given even more priority from what I gather, and has taken several steps to make close bonds between the first team and youth teams when it comes to number of coaches, coaches overlapping, first teamers following up the youngsters, development meetings and hospitant trainers like Evra and Fletcher. I think the proximity to the first team world for Sbragia and Wood respectively is like night and day.
Great post.
 

lysglimt

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Don’t take it personally, you seem to be. I can’t credit Ole for it, it’s like saying Rome wasn’t built by Romulus and Remus and made great by Caesar etc but by the more modern day Italian presidents. Im hoping you can see who I’m crediting for man Utd being in this strong position as a gargantuan football club. It ain’t ole that’s for sure. He in fact gets zero credit for our youth system. Next you’ll be telling me you built Big Ben because you we’re near it.
I am sorry but this is a very strange way of looking at things - did we have an academy before OGS ? Of course, and we will have one afterwards - so clearly he is not responsible for it - but to say that he has no credit for our current youth system is just stupid. He is very much involved in the contents of our academy. He is the guy who is main responsible for the athmosphere these players work in, who promotes them to the first-team and gives them chances, who decides if they go on loan - and to which clubs. He is the guy who speaks to players to get them to sign contracts, or speaks to new players before they join us. He is the one telling them what he expects from them, and what plan he has for them.

He is a piece in a large machinery - but he is a very important piece.
 

Wing Attack Plan R

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I'd worry about him not getting the game time to develop enough. He'd likely have Matic Fred, McT and possibly Pogba all ahead of him.
Of those you listed, only McT is a threat. Garner doesn't play in the same position as Pogba, he's miles better than Fred, and Matic (as much as I love him) is getting on.
 

BR7

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I am sorry but this is a very strange way of looking at things - did we have an academy before OGS ? Of course, and we will have one afterwards - so clearly he is not responsible for it - but to say that he has no credit for our current youth system is just stupid. He is very much involved in the contents of our academy. He is the guy who is main responsible for the athmosphere these players work in, who promotes them to the first-team and gives them chances, who decides if they go on loan - and to which clubs. He is the guy who speaks to players to get them to sign contracts, or speaks to new players before they join us. He is the one telling them what he expects from them, and what plan he has for them.

He is a piece in a large machinery - but he is a very important piece.
Yeah I mean you would expect every manager to be involved in the youth set up of their club. But As I said, you can’t give the credit for the set up itself to Ole. SAF took care of the youth set up when he took over as it was floundering when he joined and he said so himself. Ole’s picked up a well oiled machine.
 

Champagne Football

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This "clown" that you speak of won the champions league with a bunch of 18 year olds, got clean sheet after clean sheet in a world cup with a defense made up of teenagers from mid-table teams in a 2nd bit league and I think you can look up for yourself who he handed their debuts at Barca.

You're making stuff up, it's hard to argue with that:
LVG started to play more youth during an injury crisis after he had intentionally trimmed down the size of the squad. This isn't even debatable. You can look up and see he had no options in certain positions due to injuries.
I seem to recall he managed to get quite a few results with a very bad crop of youngsters that play in league 2 nowadays.

Wrong. A manager that's been here 2 years does not get credit for the academy, that's been built by multiple coaches and scouts over a much longer period.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to see Ole give more attention to the academy, but him having more of an intention to play youth than LVG has yet to be shown. That was the original claim you made and you stand corrected.

See below for an actually informed opinion.



Great post.
All I'll say to that is - Van Gaal has done great things. But for me I would compare him to Roberto Di Matteo. When Di Matteo won the Champions League with Chelsea, he could easily have ended up at Real Madrid or Barcelona after and won titles there blindfolded and in his sleep, but it didn't happen as those giants were going through decent periods with Guardiola and Mourinho. Everyone thought Di Matteo was going to be the new Guardiola when he won with Chelsea but it never happened. Often it's all about timing, and sometimes average managers find themselves in the right place at the right time when a giant club needs a manager.

Di Matteo proved to be a disaster at other clubs he went to, and I think Van Gaal has flattered to deceive at other clubs he has gone to since Ajax. Johann Cryuff was one of his biggest critics complaining about the dour football. Van Gaal was practically chased out of Bayern and also Manchester by angry mobs disgusted with what they were being served up week in week out.

Sometimes a managers success is more down to the quality of players at their disposal as opposed to the managerial brilliance. Van Gaal would not have lasted 2 months at Bayern Munich were it not for new signing Robben, which no other clubs were willing to take a risk on due to always being injured, literally exploding and becoming a one man team practically and at times on a par with Messi and Cristiano. Ranieiri is another example of a manager who inherited a squad that was superior to his managerial level where they ended up doing great things together. Di Matteo at Chelsea obviously being another example. Some people love Van Gaal. But he turned out to be arguably the worst manager in Man Utd's history according to some, and he was clearly miles out of his depth regardless of what he has done in the past.
 

lysglimt

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Yeah I mean you would expect every manager to be involved in the youth set up of their club. But As I said, you can’t give the credit for the set up itself to Ole. SAF took care of the youth set up when he took over as it was floundering when he joined and he said so himself. Ole’s picked up a well oiled machine.
I mostly agree with you - I would however say the youth set-up was going in the right direction when OGS joined - despite Mourinho, but it wasn't a well oiled machine. We were several years behind Chelsea, but with the superb signings we have made over the last 18 months we are getting really close
 

red woppit

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Hopefully Garner will be in the team on Friday against Derby (be interesting to see if Mengi gets a run out during the game, not sure if they would come into contact much though). It's live on Sky.
 

BR7

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I mostly agree with you - I would however say the youth set-up was going in the right direction when OGS joined - despite Mourinho, but it wasn't a well oiled machine. We were several years behind Chelsea, but with the superb signings we have made over the last 18 months we are getting really close
We had some pretty good talent but if I remember wasn’t it oles influence which brought in a ton of Scandinavian youngsters who never made it a few years back? I can think of two off the top of my head Aikrem and Hussein. We were several years behind Chelsea when SAF joined but we were behind a lot of clubs. Chelsea’s youth system didn’t pick up until Roman’s Roubles turned up and Kenyon deliberately killed Ronaldinho’s move to us and joined them :-)).

DuringSAFs tenure we actually had some decent youth players in my opinion. There’s a decent list there
 

Still ill

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Hopefully Garner will be in the team on Friday against Derby (be interesting to see if Mengi gets a run out during the game, not sure if they would come into contact much though). It's live on Sky.
Aha, a rare sighting of a James Garner reference in the James Garner thread. Encouraging.
 

LovelyLittlePanda

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He seems to have absolutely no problems with the physicality of the championship going by the compilations. Do they paint a fair picture in that regard?
Matic's contract expires in 2023. Would love it if Garner is his replacement.

Rooney seems sentimental enough to give Mengi a shout if he has the luxury on Friday. That'd be cool.


All I'll say to that is - Van Gaal has done great things. But for me I would compare him to Roberto Di Matteo. When Di Matteo won the Champions League with Chelsea, he could easily have ended up at Real Madrid or Barcelona after and won titles there blindfolded and in his sleep, but it didn't happen as those giants were going through decent periods with Guardiola and Mourinho. Everyone thought Di Matteo was going to be the new Guardiola when he won with Chelsea but it never happened. Often it's all about timing, and sometimes average managers find themselves in the right place at the right time when a giant club needs a manager.

Di Matteo proved to be a disaster at other clubs he went to, and I think Van Gaal has flattered to deceive at other clubs he has gone to since Ajax. Johann Cryuff was one of his biggest critics complaining about the dour football. Van Gaal was practically chased out of Bayern and also Manchester by angry mobs disgusted with what they were being served up week in week out.

Sometimes a managers success is more down to the quality of players at their disposal as opposed to the managerial brilliance. Van Gaal would not have lasted 2 months at Bayern Munich were it not for new signing Robben, which no other clubs were willing to take a risk on due to always being injured, literally exploding and becoming a one man team practically and at times on a par with Messi and Cristiano. Ranieiri is another example of a manager who inherited a squad that was superior to his managerial level where they ended up doing great things together. Di Matteo at Chelsea obviously being another example. Some people love Van Gaal. But he turned out to be arguably the worst manager in Man Utd's history according to some, and he was clearly miles out of his depth regardless of what he has done in the past.
I'm not the head of his fan club, my only point was that he was never scared to play talented youth (unlike Mourinho) and even mediocre ones did fairly well under him
and like @Grande pointed out that may have been due to his "systematic detailed approach". Now that I think back on it, there definitely was a bit of trying to impress the board with "look at me developing young talent!" after that initial injury crisis. My bad, I forgot (thank Jesus), it's been a while.
 

Champagne Football

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He seems to have absolutely no problems with the physicality of the championship going by the compilations. Do they paint a fair picture in that regard?
Matic's contract expires in 2023. Would love it if Garner is his replacement.

Rooney seems sentimental enough to give Mengi a shout if he has the luxury on Friday. That'd be cool.




I'm not the head of his fan club, my only point was that he was never scared to play talented youth (unlike Mourinho) and even mediocre ones did fairly well under him
and like @Grande pointed out that may have been due to his "systematic detailed approach". Now that I think back on it, there definitely was a bit of trying to impress the board with "look at me developing young talent!" after that initial injury crisis. My bad, I forgot (thank Jesus), it's been a while.
He did some okay things, he did some not so okay things. Losing Michael Keane, Evans and Zaha and replacing them with inferior players was a blow to the club that took some years to try and fix.
It worked out badly in the end for all parties and the frustrating thing is that he pulled a Moyes/Jose in the end and tried to blame everyone except himself for the shit-show. But yes at Ajax he did some great things a long time ago

I think Ole will definitely do all he can to mold Garner into a Carrick hybrid possibly eases him in from next season. Hopefully Garner can live up to the hype. Would fill a big hole in the team if he can.
 

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He seems to have absolutely no problems with the physicality of the championship going by the compilations. Do they paint a fair picture in that regard?
Matic's contract expires in 2023. Would love it if Garner is his replacement.

Rooney seems sentimental enough to give Mengi a shout if he has the luxury on Friday. That'd be cool.




I'm not the head of his fan club, my only point was that he was never scared to play talented youth (unlike Mourinho) and even mediocre ones did fairly well under him
and like @Grande pointed out that may have been due to his "systematic detailed approach". Now that I think back on it, there definitely was a bit of trying to impress the board with "look at me developing young talent!" after that initial injury crisis. My bad, I forgot (thank Jesus), it's been a while.
I've only seen one of his games, possibly against Blackburn? But he actually seems quite physically dominant (possible exaggeration). He's surprisingly strong and his acceleration is quite impressive as well, I'm not sure if he'll be ready to step in next season, but he could surely be part of the squad the following year.
 

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Garner is one of those youth team players I have been most excited about for the last couple of years. Potentially I see him as a Scholes/Carrick hybrid. Because he has superb technique and shooting ability, but I think his best position is as a deep lying playmaker. I think it’s going to take a minute for him to develop fully, as midfield is possibly the hardest position to play, but I think he has all the potential to be a first team squad player for years to come, and potentially a first team starter.

It’s so hard to judge with how players develop. Those years from 19 to 23 can contain some real ups and downs. The players who explode on to the scene and just get better and better are the exception, not the rule. You have those 18/19 year olds who look like they have the world at their feet, and amount to not much, and those who look solid at best, but end up brilliant.

I’d take a long term view with Garner and say he’ll make it, and make it big, but I am fair from certain. We have some serious talent coming through and it is exciting. Mejbri, Amad, Shoretire, Galbraith, Alvarez, Pellestri, Mengi, Hugill, Garner....and there are others. A lot of quality players in our academy.

Greenwood is probably the bench mark for me, in terms of what to expect from a young player. He’s as talented a player as I’ve ever seen in our youth system. Right up there with the best of them. His first season was absolutely sensational. But you can see how easy it is to struggle at that age. The talent hasn’t gone, it’s about resilience and adaptation. Weathering a poor form in an unforgiving league, and being able to adapt your game to be unpredictable. We see it with all young players, and Greenwood is so good, that I have as little doubt as is possible, that he’ll be a big player for us. But it shows the need to always act with caution.
 

united_99

Takes pleasure in other people's pain
Joined
Jul 4, 2012
Messages
6,350
Knew he had scored when I saw three Garner threads at the top!