I like Maddison too, wouldn't mind us spending 75-80m for him.
James Maddison | Spurs
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I think he would be brilliant addition to our team he genuinely looks like a player with world class potential , as long as our front three do the business we can get away With low scoring no 10 assuming he solves our creativity issues which looking at his quality shouldn't be a problem. Add somebody like Sancho on the right and defensive midfielder with quality on the ball we may finally have team worthy of being Manchester United.
Maddison would instantly improve us. He is absolute class.
Didn't see the game yesterday but up till now I haven't been convinced. Good player but good enough to replace Pogba and be good enough to help us get to the next level?
Not every midfielder we buy is to replace Pogba. I there a midfielder would perfectly replace Pogba? The best we can do is get a 10 like Maddison/harvetz and a deep lying playmaker
Actually a lot are saying buy him as a replacement for Pogba
They'd ask for 90m minimum after us taking Maguire. Don't see this happening.
Go and take a gamble of Dani Olmo. The highly rated Spain U21 sensation. Probably get him half the price.
Tell madders to run his deal down and join us in a few years for a cut price fee. He's still young enough.
Go and take a gamble of Dani Olmo. The highly rated Spain U21 sensation. Probably get him half the price.
Tell madders to run his deal down and join us in a few years for a cut price fee. He's still young enough.
I think if Eriksen leaves spurs he will be their first pick to replace him. But if he keeps playing the way he is playing he will be worth £100m
Well they are definitely high then
...........Busquets
....Xavi...............Iniesta
Greatest midfield of their generation, playing 4-3-3 and would certainly be considered 'Ballers' rather than 'Workers'. Busquets and Xavi would never be described as "The midfielders need to do a lot of high intensity running for the whole game."
They played behind Messi, Eto, Villa etc. Very strong attack.
Didn't Real Madrid play with something similar and dominate Europe for years too?
Casemiro - Like Busquets, not that mobile.
Kroos - Like Xavi, not going to get around the pitch.
Modric - The most 'Worker' like of the 6.....But still a 'Baller'.
It's this attitude of 'running around' which makes England look lost against better opponents.
A half decent midfield containing capable technical players in Rakitic/Modric showed how lost England looked at the World Cup.
Reminds me a bit of the quote by Maldini - "If I have to make a tackle then I have already made a mistake".
I'm sure there has to be one out there with regards to midfielders with high running stats being out of position a lot.
There's a reason Xavi/Iniesta hold Scholes in such high regard, and there's a reason Fergie could never replace even the faded version who couldn't get around the pitch.
England will never progress until they play progressive football. They need players like Maddison/Mount to do this.
Just a final point.
Don't pretend you know more than fans who have watched him for well over a season now.
"He’s a 10 and England don’t play with one."
We, Leicester, do not play with a 10 either. He plays as an 8.
His price should come down just for that rucksack monstrosity. Putrid!
You’re completely missing the point. Southgate is playing 4-3-3 in the mould of Liverpool and the two wide midfielders have to run a lot in it to close gaps otherwise it gets defensively exposed.
Barcelona is a very weird example to use because they’re the side that has popularised the high intensity game that nearly all top sides are using some form of these days. In the 4-3-3 Busquets plays as a 6 so doesn’t have to run as much. Xavi often topped the running stats for Barca covered up to 12.5km in a game. Iniesta was always near the top of the running stats too and latterly they bought Cesc back who was one of the best workhorses in the game in those positions. It’s just a very bad example. It’s great if you have technically gifted players that have the work rate too but England don’t.
It’s a fact that top sides play with higher work rate in the modern game. The high intensity running has increased in the PL by 30% in the past 5 years alone. It’s nothing to do with England or an English mentality it’s an evolution in the way the game is played led by managers like Bielsa, Guardiola and Klopp.
Maddison is a 10 as a player, it’s his best position, although you use him as an 8 because few sides use a 10 anymore. He has those tactical deficiencies as an 8 (Rogers has mentioned this) which is why I think Rogers is happy to take the big fee for him.
Mount isn’t the player you think he is either. As Southgate said, he fits the system whilst Maddison doesn’t. He is high intensity and quite end product orientated.
Rogers, like myself, would be extremely happy to offload him anywhere around the £80-120 million fee mentioned......And you're right about the tactical deficiencies, he's the same as Maguire in that area and you paid £80 million for him.
I'm not sure you understand the point i've made about Mount.
I think he is an 8.
Southgate thinks he is an 8.
Yet you say 'Mount isn't the player you think he is'.
There's really no such thing as a 10 in modern football.
The space of a 10 is either filled by a false 9, or by 1/2 transitioning 8s.
David Silva is the perfect example of this.
Silva/Gundogan against Norwich were both 8s.......
Maddison/Tielemans against Spurs were both 8s......
Just because one is more suited to transitioning into the 10 position, does not mean that they're not an 8.
Are you suggesting that because Gundogan is more defensively sound, that you would rather have two Gundogans?
Ludicrous, and exactly the reason England's 433 doesn't work in the midfield area.
We haven't come close to winning a tournament since 66, so there's no evidence to suggest what England do is working.
We will miss out on the CL so there won't be much better alternatives nor cheaper
There's no such thing as a 10 because of the way formations have physical demands of the game has changed it's a big disadvantage to carry any low work rate player these days (except for Messi). The way the game has evolved means that player's like Ozil that just want to float about as a high up playmaker without doing the dirty work are not going to favoured for top sides any longer. Maddison has to improve that side of his game a lot, he has to be tactically on point in all phases of the game, like all players now have to.
No one wants two Gundogens if you can have a B Silva and a KDB but two Gundogens is better than and Gundogen and a Maddison if you want a 4-3-3 team shape to work to it's optimum. The midfielders don't need to creative in this position if the forwards are good enough, like at Liverpool and like with England. International football is different to club football because you have to make the best use of available resources rather than buying players to fit your system. A lot of Liverpool's threat comes from the quality of their front 3 and their full backs, now we have an excellent front 3 and one of Liverpool's full backs, we also have one of Liverpool's 8s and another high work rate 8, who has played this system under Sarri for a season. It's perfectly logical as to why Southgate has chosen to adopt this system. I actually think the issue is if Rice is good enough on the half turn and with the ball to play the 6 position.
I'm not saying that Maddison can't improve or force his way into the reckoning but its fairly obvious why Southgate is not selecting him.
I said I don't think you know what type of play Mount is because it seemed that you think he has a higher technical level than Barkley or Henderson and he doesn't. I think 8 is his worst position too. I think his best position is actually as a 10! Lampard's using him as a left sided inside forward in his system currently and I think he's getting a better tune out of him there than when he played him as an 8 all those times for Derby.
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So what you're really saying is that England's forwards/midfielders are not good enough for us to be able to play players like Maddison/Mount?
David Silva/De Bruyne don't have the defensive stats suggested by you that you need to use a 4-3-3 effectively, but they would be welcomed into England's midfield.
Both Mount/Maddison have contributed better defensively this season than the two Man City players.
It comes down to two problems why players like this not getting a crack at England.
1. Mentality - We still put too much emphasis on running distance against technical ability.
If you're running a lot, its because you don't have the ball and are out of position.
A Spain/Germany would never, ever, not consider a guy creating the most chances in a league to be left out of their side.
That would be like Spain/Germany leaving Iniesta/Ozil out of their World cup winning sides.
2. Not having good enough players in key positions to allow creative players to flourish.
Kane/Sterling are obviously World Class players, so the problem isn't necessarily with our front 3. Of course, after Sancho, the quality drops significantly to someone like Rashford, but the front 3 is very capable.
The midfield is where the problem starts.
We don't have a reliable option at 6. Rice doesn't really look ready, he's always getting caught out of position and his technical ability is questionable.
Then you look at the center backs, we don't have any that are World Class. Maguire reasonably solid, but the drop off after that is immense.
We haven't looked like winning a tournament, and until we enter the modern game as an international side, we never will.
If you have an English player, creating more chances than Hazard/De Bruyne/either Silva, you play him.
If Maddison was Spanish, they would be grooming him for that David Silva role right now, ahead of Isco/Ceballos etc.
In modern football coaches are demanding that work rate from the likes of Maddison, not binning them and declaring them players that dont fit the current plan i.e what city do. Before Pep joined them no one would've called the two Silva's workhorses but these days they do work that hard. Coincidently did the same thing at Barca with Xavi and Iniesta. Southgate is just clueless.
I couldn't agree more, for Southgate to bin Maddison because he doesn't know how to use him is ludicrous. Not all players can be typecast but good managers work out how to use them. Southgate is tactically inept !!
typical british disease, if the don't come off barely able to walk due to how much you ran you haven't "worked hard" if you are generally in the right place you don't need to run all over the place.
Watching Maddison you see how much he tackles back, tracks his man etc he just doesn't race round like a headless chicken in doing it
Got to remember he's from the generation that saw Liverpool dominate everyone for years on years - it sounds a bit old fashioned but it's no different to someone speaking in the same way about United (unless our fortunes improve) in a decade or so.Trying to force down everyone's throat how big Liverpool are still (even though the fans don't need to do that anymore as they actually have a decent team again) I'd say he's very much behaving like one
David Silva and KDB do have the running stats I'm talking about. Silva has average 11.5km for City even in the pre Guardiola era and KDB is one of the most physically impressive footballers in the league, in a game against Suprs a couple of seasons back he ran the furtherest and did the most high intensity sprints of any player on the pitch! He often does 12 - 12.5km per game. It isn't just about tackles it's about closing space that's left because of the attacking 4-3-3 formation. D Silva is one of the best in the City side at tactical fouls which is part of how Pep prevents those gaps from being exploited, you need a hard pressing quick off the mark player for that. Football can actually be boiled down into essentially being about finding space. Modern tactical formations are completely appreciative of this and work on controlling space as a team which is why hard pressing a high work rate players are more important. I don't see this ever changing.
So what you're really saying is that England's forwards/midfielders are not good enough for us to be able to play players like Maddison/Mount?
Why do you keep bringing Mount into it? Southgate has said that he fits the system and he got minutes. He's not a technically gifted player like Maddison either. He's not all that different to Barkley on a technical level, he's just a better goalscorer.
If you're running a lot, its because you don't have the ball and are out of position.
Surely you can see the absolute folly of this statement when Maddison's counterparts in City's team run so much further than him even though they have significantly more possession than Leicester?!?!
We haven't looked like winning a tournament, and until we enter the modern game as an international side, we never will.
Since we've been playing the 4-3-3 we won the Nations League group containing Spain and Croatia. In that group we scored 3 goals against Spain away and we the first team to beat them on their home patch in many a year. We finished third in that competition overall. In our qualifying group we've scored 16 goals in our first 4 games
A Spain/Germany would never, ever, not consider a guy creating the most chances in a league to be left out of their side.
That would be like Spain/Germany leaving Iniesta/Ozil out of their World cup winning sides.
Pascal Groß created most chances in the Bundesliga in 16/17. Like Maddison, he's a number 10 that creates a lot of chances from set pieces. He's never played for Germany. He did get a transfer to Brighton though.
As for Ozil, Low even said when he retired from Germany that his type of player is no longer relevant.
“The situation of the playmaker or No 10 doesn’t really exist any more and hasn’t done for a long time.
“These days the playmakers, the ones who make the play, are in deeper more defensive positions.”
David Silva has always had good work rate. As for Bernado Silva, sorry but you are dead wrong there, he was well known in France for being an incredible physical player capable of crazy running stats, it's a big reason why Pep bought him. It's no surprise that he was also interested in Fred as he had the best running stats in the Champions League when they were in City's group and he tried to sign him. Pep signs players that have the work rate as well as the technical abilities to play his system. It's why his sides are so good.
Sorry but you're being ignorant here. Southgate is literally basing England's tactics on bloody Jugen Klopp's at Liverpool! These systems have little to do with English football. Who said this? “I want my players chasing the ball like (dogs chase) dog bones.”
Pep Guardiola
Just do some of your own research in how the physical demands of the game have radically changed in recent years
https://totalfootballanalysis.com/training-analysis/how-to-practice-a-high-press
Read between the lines on what Southgate says, he wants Maddison to improve that side of his game if he is going to start for England.
That is easily one of the best answers I've ever read on the Caf. By far. You sir win the internet for today.Why are people still pushing the Barca and city midfielders as example that you don't need high intensity?
Those midfields work because they are extremely good at creating chances without ever losing the ball. You don't have to run around and tackle if you never let the other side have the ball.
Madison is really not that player, he loses the ball often.
Those midfields work because they are extremely good at creating chances without ever losing the ball. You don't have to run around and tackle if you never let the other side have the ball.
Madison is really not that player, he loses the ball often.
He's a good player and is going along the right path but as always he's being massively overrated.
He hasn't even proved he's too good for Leicester yet so all the talk of spending £80m+ is so premature to me.
He hasn't even proved he's too good for Leicester yet so all the talk of spending £80m+ is so premature to me.
Can this rumor foockoff; we don't need James fecking Maddison - he's not good enough for Man Utd, and he's certainly not worth the quoted prices here.
Does anyone really think he is Beckham but in 2019 ? He doesn't seem to be great at much bar striking the ball... Good at most things but not great.
Can't decide if he would frustrate at this club or do well... think at the very least his delivery would help is tight games (seems like every game now)
Can't decide if he would frustrate at this club or do well... think at the very least his delivery would help is tight games (seems like every game now)
Under Guardiola Barca did press like demons, when they didn't have the ball. Which wasn't often. Most of the same people played an LVG style of attack for Spain as well, pressing hard without the ball but playing very slowly with it, highly methodical.
It only works, though, if you can keep possession at an outrageous rate, and have world class talent everywhere. We *can* afford to do that, but we keep buying the wrong players. It's no going to work very well while we're building such a team, if that's the plan, but you have to start somewhere.
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This signing is quite obvious for us in the summer.
I like him, but not sure he is good enough for the way we play. A good number 10, but not good enough on the wings or as a box-box midfielder. Just like Maguire he is a bit overrated being english.
he is a number 10 not a winger or a b2b...obv not good enough in those position that are not his !!
Good player. So much better than those we have who takes up the same positions in fact, that it’d be crazy to say no to him. We’re in deep shit, and to put Maddison out instead of Mata, Pereira and Lingard is a win, win, win in my book. Would take him for 80, not because it’s his value, but it’d be worth it for us.
Not good enough on the wings? He'd instantly be the best crosser in the team.
No way he goes for less than Maguire.
He was the what?
I agree, just not sure at what point the price will be a hindrance for future deals etc. relative to how much he’d contribute. I’ll leave that to the very capable negotiators on our pay roll
Point is, he’d be a massive improvement. He creates so much. Which is more important to me than the price.
He's a good PL level player. Much like Maguire, actually. And like Maguire, he's not going to elevate the team or add anything further than that. For the price he'd cost, I'd prefer to look elsewhere. I'd prefer to actually buy some top quality wingers and a central midfield, and move away from playing with number 10's.
Plus, he does seem like a bit of a bellend. The vitriol will flood in from our fans once he starts hanging around with Lingard, and performances drop, like virtually every single player we've signed in the past 5 years.
Plus, he does seem like a bit of a bellend. The vitriol will flood in from our fans once he starts hanging around with Lingard, and performances drop, like virtually every single player we've signed in the past 5 years.
Deez yoofs, dho.I reckon Leicester would sell him for 85, making a point that it was more than Maguire. I agree he'd be a massive upgrade, versatile, energetic, good touch, mouldable, hasn't won anything yet so hungry.