James McClean: 'Does being abused for being Irish and anti Irish abuse acceptable?'

[stevoc]

Has he received anti Irish abuse? Yes. Is it because he’s Irish? I don’t think so or you would be able to give me examples of it happening to other Irish players in England. I’m not deflecting anything. You are the one that won’t answer my questions. I’ve said why I believe he gets the abuse he does. Calling him an Irish cnut or something similar is just a descriptor. If there was so much hatred for people just for being Irish then why can’t you give me one other example? I’ve said numerous times he is singled out because of the poppy thing, wrongly, and then he continues to make a dick of himself which then increases the focus on him again. It is not because he is Irish.

Great finally, glad we agree on something at least.

Why he gets the abuse is irrelevant mate surely you see that. A player being a twat wouldn't make it alright for some to racially abuse them so i'll refer back to my original point which you replied to, if it was another player getting abused for their race/religion then people wouldn't try to justify it by saying he's a twat or he's brought it upon himself etc.

As for other Irish players receiving similar abuse i have no idea which ones have and haven't, and i suspect neither do you.

 

[acnumber9]

Have you ever been to a football game in England ? I've been at many a game where I have heard groups shouting abuse at Irish players . Just like black players being abused for the colour of their skin . I never hear someone shout you Welsh or Italian so and so but I've heard numerous Anti Irish things over the years attending football games in England and especially in London and at Chelsea.

Yeah I’ve been to football matches in England. And I’ve heard nationality used against many players. Very minimal mind you. I can’t say I’ve encountered rampant anti Irish opinions at them. Who were they aimed at?

 

[Tel074]

This thread shows me exactly the problem McClean has in England .
Most English think the Irish are the bad the English army are the good so can't understand why anyone would refuse to wear the poppy.
Us Irish know what it was like growing up in Ireland especially Northern Ireland during the troubles so we have a completely different opinion to most English.
No one in my home was Republican my father is a English man yet we had rebel songs at my grandfather's home . My own father knows most of the words to these songs and it's something we joke about .

Yes James does silly things like the balaclava but when I first saw it I laughed because I knew the angle he was coming from . It was a joke which having a largely based English audience he shouldn't have done .

Because alot of Irish know rebel songs it doesn't mean we support the IRA it's just our upbringing.
James doesn't support the IRA he isn't in the IRA he's just a Irish lad who's family was affected by the troubles like most of ours was .

 

[acnumber9]

Great finally, glad we agree on something at least.

Why he gets the abuse is irrelevant mate surely you see that. A player being a twat wouldn't make it alright for some to racially abuse them so i'll refer back to my original point which you replied to, if it was another player getting abused for their race/religion then people wouldn't try to justify it by saying he's a twat or he's brought it upon himself etc.

As for other Irish players receiving similar abuse i have no idea which ones have and haven't, and i suspect neither do you.

Irish isn’t a race. It isn’t irrelevant because you’re the one saying he’s getting the abuse because he’s Irish. I’m not the one claiming anti Irish sentiment so why would I need to. You can’t compare to black players getting abuse for being black because he isn’t getting abuse just for being Irish.

 

[Tel074]

Yeah I’ve been to football matches in England. And I’ve heard nationality used against many players. Very minimal mind you. I can’t say I’ve encountered rampant anti Irish opinions at them. Who were they aimed at?

All the Irish players especially Keane back in the day . I sat in the Chelsea home end for one United game about 2002 with my nephew he was about 7 then . I left just after HT because the amount of abuse the Irish players where getting was shocking .

 

[Tel074]

Yes I know what the song is about. Are you seriously going to pretend that it doesn’t provoke a response from people. It doesn’t matter what a song is about, it is more what it is associated with. For a very mild example, You’ll Never Walk Alone is from an American musical, but it’s synonymous with something else which makes it not very popular with United fans. McClean knows exactly what he is doing and it’s insulting to people’s intelligence to pretend otherwise.

What is his excuse for wearing a balaclava and giving his kids ‘history’ lessons? Oh wait, it was just a hilarious joke wasn’t it?

As I explained in another post yes it was a joke and when I first saw it I laughed because I knew where he was coming from. It was a joke and if he still played in Ireland then it would have been seen that way but he isn't and shouldn't have done it because he has a English audience who think the Irish side of the troubles are all bad and the English side are the good

 

[acnumber9]

All the Irish players especially Keane back in the day . I sat in the Chelsea home end for one United game about 2002 with my nephew he was about 7 then . I left just after HT because the amount of abuse the Irish players where getting was shocking .

Well, Chelsea do have a certain section of support don’t they? They’re not exactly targeting Irish people and leaving everyone else alone are they?

 

[stevoc]

Yes I know what the song is about. Are you seriously going to pretend that it doesn’t provoke a response from people. It doesn’t matter what a song is about, it is more what it is associated with. For a very mild example, You’ll Never Walk Alone is from an American musical, but it’s synonymous with something else which makes it not very popular with United fans. McClean knows exactly what he is doing and it’s insulting to people’s intelligence to pretend otherwise.

It might but thats not his problem is it, what if he genuinely does love the song and had no ulterior motive in sharing that information?

Do you know for a fact that he did it to wind people up?

McClean doesn't strike me as the sharpest knife in the drawer lets be honest. I doubt he woke up one day and thought to himself ''I'll jump on Twitter and proclaim love for an old rebel song about the Old IRA during the Irish civil war in the 1920's. British people will google what its about and it'll wind them up''. Seems a stretch, mate.

What is his excuse for wearing a balaclava and giving his kids ‘history’ lessons? Oh wait, it was just a hilarious joke wasn’t it?

No idea mate and if you see my response in here to that episode you'll know i didn't think it was clever of him.

 

[acnumber9]

As I explained in another post yes it was a joke and when I first saw it I laughed because I knew where he was coming from. It was a joke and if he still played in Ireland then it would have been seen that way but he isn't and shouldn't have done it because he has a English audience who think the Irish side of the troubles are all bad and the English side are the good

Yeah it’s hilarious. It’s not just an English audience he has and not everyone in the country he is from would find it particularly funny either. I’d question why anyone would think it’s funny. You would think a person so affected by innocent people being murdered would have a little more thought for the innocent people murdered by the people he was ‘joking’ about.

 

[Withnail]

Has he received anti Irish abuse? Yes. Is it because he’s Irish? I don’t think so or you would be able to give me examples of it happening to other Irish players in England. I’m not deflecting anything. You are the one that won’t answer my questions. I’ve said why I believe he gets the abuse he does. Calling him an Irish cnut or something similar is just a descriptor. If there was so much hatred for people just for being Irish then why can’t you give me one other example? I’ve said numerous times he is singled out because of the poppy thing, wrongly, and then he continues to make a dick of himself which then increases the focus on him again. It is not because he is Irish.

Oh right so now it is anti-Irish abuse but it's not because he's Irish.

You are flip-flopping all over the shop man

 

[BiggusCrickus]

Never good for any person to get abuse but James McClean has not helped the situation in the past with some of his social media posts.

 

[Withnail]

Yeah not like "English man " Declan Rice who was on social media saying up the Ra .

Got away with it too the scamp

 

[acnumber9]

It might but thats not his problem is it, what if he genuinely does love the song and had no ulterior motive in sharing that information?

Do you know for a fact that he did it to wind people up?

McClean doesn't strike me as the sharpest knife in the drawer lets be honest. I doubt he woke up one day and thought to himself ''I'll jump on Twitter and proclaim love for an old rebel song about the Old IRA during the Irish civil war in the 1920's. British people will google what its about and it'll wind them up''. Seems a stretch, mate.



No idea mate and if you see my response in here to that episode you'll know i didn't think it was clever of him.

You don’t have to be bright to know that certain people wouldn’t react well to that. He knows the feelings people in Northern Ireland have. Not all British people are English. Do I know for a fact he did it to wind people up? No. Does saying any catholic who chooses to play for Northern Ireland and doesn’t feel uncomfortable are liars, turning away from a piece of fabric, and wearing balaclavas for a joke, give enough reason to doubt him? For me it does.

 

[acnumber9]

Oh right so now it is anti-Irish abuse but it's not because he's Irish.

You are flip-flopping all over the shop man

Calling somebody an Irish cnut or sectarian chanting? Yes. Is he being abused just because he’s Irish? No. As I’ve said many times. Go and lie down.

 

[acnumber9]

Got away with it too the scamp

He was 16 years old and apologised. He’s obviously still a twat though.

 

[Eire Red United]

Yes I know what the song is about. Are you seriously going to pretend that it doesn’t provoke a response from people. It doesn’t matter what a song is about, it is more what it is associated with. For a very mild example, You’ll Never Walk Alone is from an American musical, but it’s synonymous with something else which makes it not very popular with United fans. McClean knows exactly what he is doing and it’s insulting to people’s intelligence to pretend otherwise.

What is his excuse for wearing a balaclava and giving his kids ‘history’ lessons? Oh wait, it was just a hilarious joke wasn’t it?

It was, because it wound up all the knuckle dragger gobshites

 

[Eire Red United]

He was 16 years old and apologised. He’s obviously still a twat though.

Of course Rice is a twat.

 

[Eire Red United]

Well, Chelsea do have a certain section of support don’t they? They’re not exactly targeting Irish people and leaving everyone else alone are they?

That’s ok then is it?

 

[stevoc]

Irish isn’t a race. It isn’t irrelevant because you’re the one saying he’s getting the abuse because he’s Irish. I’m not the one claiming anti Irish sentiment so why would I need to.

No where have i claimed he's getting abused solely because he's Irish mate. Can you quote where i've said that in this conversation?

You can’t compare to black players getting abuse for being black because he isn’t getting abuse just for being Irish.

Where the Anti-Irish/sectarian abuse stems from is irrelevant mate as i've said. The fact is he is receiving that type of abuse regularly and it's disgraceful. There is no justification for it.

And i was comparing abuse with abuse. I've made no claims as to which type of abuse is worse, thats not for me to decide this isn't a competition.

It was simply an observation pointing out that some people wouldn't try to justify different forms of abuse towards other players by talking about that players personality or things they've said.

 

[acnumber9]

It was, because it wound up all the knuckle dragger gobshites

Yeah it was. McClean really is a great social commentator.

 

[acnumber9]

That’s ok then is it?

Did I say it was? I was responding to somebody saying they didn’t hear it about other nationalities. Best to read and engage your brain before responding.

 

[Eire Red United]

Yeah it was. McClean really is a great social commentator.

In all seriousness, there does need to be more of that side of history taught.

 

[Withnail]

Calling somebody an Irish cnut or sectarian chanting? Yes. Is he being abused just because he’s Irish? No. As I’ve said many times. Go and lie down.

That was your straw man though. I didn't see anyone claim it was purely because he was Irish.

I said a few times it was anti-Irish abuse he was receiving. I didn't actually realise you were splitting hairs to this extent but I can't remember seeing anyone say it was purely because he was Irish.

 

[acnumber9]

No where have i claimed he's getting abused solely because he's Irish mate. Can you quote where i've said that in this conversation?



Where the Anti-Irish/sectarian abuse stems from is irrelevant mate as i've said. The fact is he is receiving that type of abuse regularly and it's disgraceful. There is no justification for it.

And i was comparing abuse with abuse. I've made no claims as to which type of abuse is worse, thats not for me to decide this isn't a competition.

It was simply an observation pointing out that some people wouldn't try to justify different forms of abuse towards other players by talking about that players personality or things they've said.

It was the impression I got from reading your posts. If I was wrong then I apologise. Abuse is going to happen when people try to antagonise people. I think comparing it to black players being abused for being black is unfair. But of course things should be done about people getting death threats. Especially his kids. Him making it about him being Irish isn’t the right way to go in my opinion.

 

[acnumber9]

That was your straw man though. I didn't see anyone claim it was purely because he was Irish.

I said a few times it was anti-Irish abuse he was receiving. I didn't actually realise you were splitting hairs to this extent but I can't remember seeing anyone say it was purely because he was Irish.

Then why compare him to Matić? It was you and others doing that. What other opinion was I take from that than ‘it’s because he’s Irish’?

 

[Tel074]

Well, Chelsea do have a certain section of support don’t they? They’re not exactly targeting Irish people and leaving everyone else alone are they?

And there's the reason why all this abuse was tolerated for so many years . Ahh sure they are like that arnt they . Sure they abuse everyone so it's grand .

 

[Tel074]

Yeah it’s hilarious. It’s not just an English audience he has and not everyone in the country he is from would find it particularly funny either. I’d question why anyone would think it’s funny. You would think a person so affected by innocent people being murdered would have a little more thought for the innocent people murdered by the people he was ‘joking’ about.

Do you wear a poppy ?

 

[acnumber9]

And there's the reason why all this abuse was tolerated for so many years . Ahh sure they are like that arnt they . Sure they abuse everyone so it's grand .

Again, I’m responding to your suggestion they weren’t targeting other nationalities.

 

[acnumber9]

Do you wear a poppy ?

No. And never said McClean should either. Do you have a point to your question?

 

[Withnail]

Then why compare him to Matić? It was you and others doing that. What other opinion was I take from that than ‘it’s because he’s Irish’?

So you make an assumption and then blame everyone else?

His Irishness is absolutely part of it but obviously it's more nuanced than 'it's only happening because he's Irish'.

 

[Tel074]

Again, I’m responding to your suggestion they weren’t targeting other nationalities.

Sorry where you there ? Did you actually read my earlier post ? They where targeting the Irish players the Scottish Italian Welsh Danish English players wernt called names by their nationality it was the Irish players . I don't know how many times I have to keep repeating this

 

[acnumber9]

So you make an assumption and then blame everyone else?

His Irishness is absolutely part of it but obviously it's more nuanced than 'it's only happening because he's Irish'.

I can only go on what is put in front of me. You haven’t provided any nuance. So what’s the difference between him and Matić? Tell me in terms other than his nationality, why he gets more abuse?

 

[acnumber9]

Sorry where you there ? Did you actually read my earlier post ? They where targeting the Irish players the Scottish Italian Welsh Danish English players wernt called names by their nationality it was the Irish players . I don't know how many times I have to keep repeating this

I wasn’t in the small area of Stamford Bridge that you were at, no. Do Chelsea fans only hate Irish people?

 

[Tel074]

No. And never said McClean should either. Do you have a point to your question?

I never said you said McClean should wear a poppy . My point is if you wear a poppy it doesn't link you to the British army murdering innocent people from the past Hundred years just like James listening to rebel songs doesn't link him to the innocent people the IRA murdered .

The abuse he gets stems from Northern Ireland and Sunderland fans over reacting when he first rightly refused to wear a poppy .

 

[acnumber9]

Has nobody here ever called anyone an English something?

 

[Tel074]

I wasn’t in the small area of Stamford Bridge that you were at, no. Do Chelsea fans only hate Irish people?

This conversation is going no where because you can't see anyone elses opinion . How the bloody hell can I tell you who certain Chelsea fans hate ?

It wasn't a small area and it wasn't just Chelsea fans and one night .
No Blacks Dogs and Irish . Maybe you don't believe that either

 

[Tel074]

Has nobody here ever called anyone an English something?

You really are missing the point to a stage where you are actually embarrassing yourself

 

[RUCK4444]

Yes I know what the song is about. Are you seriously going to pretend that it doesn’t provoke a response from people. It doesn’t matter what a song is about, it is more what it is associated with. For a very mild example, You’ll Never Walk Alone is from an American musical, but it’s synonymous with something else which makes it not very popular with United fans. McClean knows exactly what he is doing and it’s insulting to people’s intelligence to pretend otherwise.

What is his excuse for wearing a balaclava and giving his kids ‘history’ lessons? Oh wait, it was just a hilarious joke wasn’t it?

This. He's a complete idiot. IMO he shouldn't self appoint himself into the race debate which is going on now, nobody is treating him different because he's Irish or the colour of his skin ffs. I'm pretty sure if he was good enough to travel around Europe playing football like many of the players he's including himself in the debate with, that he wouldn't have monkey chants or any kind of abuse thrown at him.

How he can cry about not getting the same protection as black players whilst dressing up online as a member of the IRA frankly sickens me.

I can't wait for him to retire, more famous for causing off the field 'debates' than anything he has or will ever do on the pitch.

There's a clear difference between him and Matic, one quietly goes about his business has explained his reasoning for not wearing the poppy and goes out of his way to not offend anybody, the other IMO is verging on enjoying the cult status this whole situation provides him with back home - his social media nonsense eludes to that imo.

 

[Withnail]

I can only go on what is put in front of me. You haven’t provided any nuance. So what’s the difference between him and Matić? Tell me in terms other than his nationality, why he gets more abuse?

You've made a number of assumptions and have been quite disingenuous in your interactions with me and others in this thread.

You're doing the same thing with @Tel074 and you're at it again with that question. I said his nationality does come into it, as others have said and now you want to explain why in terms other than his nationality
I've also explained why I think it's happening earlier but you've ignored that too.

To be honest I've no interest in discussing the issue any further with you, even if it wasn't time to step away from the computer and go have dinner.

 

[acnumber9]

I never said you said McClean should wear a poppy . My point is if you wear a poppy it doesn't link you to the British army murdering innocent people from the past Hundred years just like James listening to rebel songs doesn't link him to the innocent people the IRA murdered .

The abuse he gets stems from Northern Ireland and Sunderland fans over reacting when he first rightly refused to wear a poppy .

It’s being called a symbol of support for it. Which is why he won’t wear it. Why is a balaclava not a symbol for paramilitaries or songs sung in their support?

Looking at a Union Jack doesn’t mean you’re disrespecting people the British army have killed either but for some reason James McClean couldn’t bare to do it.

Northern Ireland fans had a legitimate reason to dislike him before that and not all of it was sectarian. It’s all been said. Any other back and forth is just the same old shite. I don’t think McClean is a principled as he likes to claim. I also get the feeling from him that’s he’s just as bigoted as those who have abused him. I won’t convince you otherwise and you won’t convince me otherwise.