James McClean: 'Does being abused for being Irish and anti Irish abuse acceptable?'

[arnie_ni]

I agree and that's why James needs to be careful while people from Derry and other areas can understand what he was saying people in the UK don't and they jump on him for it .

Not even just the uk. 50 percent, give or take, of his own country would take him up wrong.

When you talk about these matters you need to be word for word perfect in how your saying what your saying otherwise someone will completely take it wrong

 

[stevoc]

I don't know where you come from or your background, but I recommend actually reading up much more on the problems in Northern Ireland before commenting. It's clear from your own commetns you see the British Army as an invading force (it isn't). That atrocities were regularly carried out by the British Army (they weren't).

I think you should maybe take some of your own advice mate. Genuinely interested are you from Northern Ireland or did you serve here?

Don't know if you can access BBC iPlayer in the US but theres an very good recent documentary from the BBC that details what the British military/intelligence got up to in Northern Ireland. Heres a link.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0008c4b/episodes/player

Don't disagree with you on the IRA either for whats its worth.

 

[Champagne Football]

That’s a bit naughty on your part. I’m not a fan of Mcclean but being from Derry I can understand. 40 - 50 years may not be in his lifetime but it’s in the lifetime of his parents who would have lived in an era of British paratroopers shooting civilians dead on the streets of Derry. So i understand where he’s coming from.
I also understand why he chose to play for ireland rather than NI. (I don’t understand why he played for NI underage levels though given the strength in his beliefs).

the only thing I’d say against him, is that he invites some of the nasty comments by going on twitter etc and making posts which could be provocative. Eg. The balaclava post. It’s maybe why some of the Irish players keep their distance from his posts

it doesn’t excuse the bullets and death threats, nothing does.

Fair enough. I can't argue with that. I guess if I'd grown up on the bogside 40 years ago then I'd understand it a bit more. What a great spot Derry is these days. Best city on the island for me to spend a weekend.

 

[Tel074]

Not even the mainland. 50 percent, give or take, of his own country would take him up wrong.

When you talk about these matters you need to be word for word perfect in how your saying what your saying otherwise someone will completely take it wrong

Tbf alot of the other side can see where he is coming from with their own situation during the troubles but both sides wouldn't ever admit to it .
I've seen players like Morrow McDonagh and Manus turn away from the Tricolour on cup final days .
Where the fans unhappy? Yes of course did the fans then decide to give them dogs abuse and even abuse their own player like Sunderland fans did then no .
I look at it as well he has his beliefs I wish he would stand for the National Anthem but he's one of us so we support him .
Maybe it's a English thing

 

[stevoc]

If my expectation is for people to not dress up as IRA then I make no excuse for that I’m afraid.

Again, he’s every right to do what he thinks is right for him. I have a right to expect him to behave himself in an acceptable manner, to the same standard I’d expect myself to be held. That’s just common sense, not me expecting him to be quiet.

All the alphabet clubs in NI wore the same balaclava's mate. Without even getting into the 600 Loyalist terror gangs, there is off the top of my head the Official, Provisional, Continuity, Real, New IRA. Probably more i've never even heard of.

And given the abuse McClean receives the balaclava thing was ill thought out and in poor taste if it was a joke. Only gave more ammunition to the bigoted thicko's who try to justify the abuse he receives.

 

[golden_blunder]

Fair enough. I can't argue with that. I guess if I'd grown up on the bogside 40 years ago then I'd understand it a bit more. What a great spot Derry is these days. Best city on the island for me to spend a weekend.

Derry is a great city. I wish I could convince the wife to move there

 

[lsd]

I don't know where you come from or your background, but I recommend actually reading up much more on the problems in Northern Ireland before commenting. It's clear from your own commetns you see the British Army as an invading force (it isn't). That atrocities were regularly carried out by the British Army (they weren't). That the IRA were out to end oppression for catholics (oh boy, I have news for you).

The IRA are a terrorist criminal gang that regular tortured, killed and extorted from their own community. The location of innocent "dissapeared" has never been resolved (google Jean McConnville). The IRA worked in conjunction with other so called terrorist gangs on import and distribution of drugs. The IRA regularly targeted catholics who joined the police and army. None of this is secret. Google Peadar Heffron and google about the posters that were put up this year in Derry about him. This is still happening, google Lyra McKee shot dead in Derry in 2019.

I never knew Jamie Bryson posted on here

Thought you would be more at home on a Rangers board Jamie

 

[rumac]

If my expectation is for people to not dress up as IRA then I make no excuse for that I’m afraid.

Again, he’s every right to do what he thinks is right for him. I have a right to expect him to behave himself in an acceptable manner, to the same standard I’d expect myself to be held. That’s just common sense, not me expecting him to be quiet.

I will direct you to the next thing I wrote. Was that stupid and in poor taste? Yes it was. Did he get in trouble over it? Yes he did.

Is it too much to expect the same consequences for the abuse he is getting?

And again I will point out he was getting abuse before he did that. Just for not wearing a poppy and refusing to bow to pressure to do so, which if your previous posts are anything to go by, you think he brought on himself.

 

[Eire Red United]

Yea i think we should leave it all there.

We would never change each other minds on it anyway.

Very true

 

[RUCK4444]

I will direct you to the next thing I wrote. Was that stupid and in poor taste? Yes it was. Did he get in trouble over it? Yes he did.

Is it too much to expect the same consequences for the abuse he is getting?

And again I will point out he was getting abuse before he did that. Just for not wearing a poppy and refusing to bow to pressure to do so, which if your previous posts are anything to go by, you think he brought on himself.

I don't understand what consequences he's looking for people to receive, what exactly happens? He get's booed and some typical angry fan verbal? Last I heard there isn't a law to stop fans booing a player.

I'm not condoning people abusing him, far from it. I just don't think he should self-appoint himself in the current race movement / discrimination debate because his abuse is not race related and the abuse he's receiving in turn is likely not illegal either (unless there are racist remarks being shouted at him which would be absolutely unacceptable.) To me this is not a race issue, so why is he seeking to garner the protection he desires off the back of the current race movement.

 

[lsd]

I don't understand what consequences he's looking for people to receive, what exactly happens? He get's booed and some typical angry fan verbal? Last I heard there isn't a law to stop fans booing a player.

I'm not condoning people abusing him, far from it. I just don't think he should self-appoint himself in the current race movement / discrimination debate because his abuse is not race related and the abuse he's receiving in turn is likely not illegal either (unless there are racist remarks being shouted at him which would be absolutely unacceptable.) To me this is not a race issue, so why is he seeking to garner the protection he desires off the back of the current race movement.

Pretty sure death threats and posting bullets are illegal

 

[poleglass red]

I don't understand what consequences he's looking for people to receive, what exactly happens? He get's booed and some typical angry fan verbal? Last I heard there isn't a law to stop fans booing a player.

I'm not condoning people abusing him, far from it. I just don't think he should self-appoint himself in the current race movement / discrimination debate because his abuse is not race related and the abuse he's receiving in turn is likely not illegal either (unless there are racist remarks being shouted at him which would be absolutely unacceptable.) To me this is not a race issue, so why is he seeking to garner the protection he desires off the back of the current race movement.

It's gone way past that for him. Like his international teammate it has spilled over into social media. Whilst everyone was right to universally denounce the horrible abuse McClean's international teammate got, there was silence in the abuse McClean is getting. There was horrible posts recently made about him and it's brushed off as lad banter. It's not, it's abuse, shouldn't happen to him, shouldn't happen to any player. Its a different world we live in now re social media, players can brush off for the most part, abuse over 90 mins, but not when family members are brought into it on social media.McClean doesn't help himself at times, he's confrontational, his attempts at humour divisive, here's a more nuanced response from another NI player who has in the past received abuse, Niall McGinn, he get's his views across without coming across as bitter:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/53378302

 

[rumac]

I don't understand what consequences he's looking for people to receive, what exactly happens? He get's booed and some typical angry fan verbal? Last I heard there isn't a law to stop fans booing a player.

I'm not condoning people abusing him, far from it. I just don't think he should self-appoint himself in the current race movement / discrimination debate because his abuse is not race related and the abuse he's receiving in turn is likely not illegal either (unless there are racist remarks being shouted at him which would be absolutely unacceptable.) To me this is not a race issue, so why is he seeking to garner the protection he desires off the back of the current race movement.

I'm really trying to have a reasonable conversation with you about this, but it is really hard when you are trying to say that the abuse he is receiving is not race related.

I know you will say "Irish isn't a race". He is receiving abuse based on his ethnicity which legally and practically is the same thing.

Given that the only other player to take the stance he has hasn't received the same level of abuse and the history of anti Irish sentiment in the UK it is not a huge jump to suggest that the reason he is getting the abuse is also related to his ethnicity.

 

[RC89]

The balaclava that he is wearing is associated with the IRA. Therefore the insinuation is that he’s teaching his kids about the IRA

Ah, thanks for that. Not the smartest move was it?

 

[golden_blunder]

Ah, thanks for that. Not the smartest move was it?

No, I don’t think he’s the sharpest tool in the box

 

[RUCK4444]

Pretty sure death threats and posting bullets are illegal

Well for sure that's unacceptable. Not sure how the FA are able to help him with this though? Surely that's a police issue.

 

[RUCK4444]

I'm really trying to have a reasonable conversation with you about this, but it is really hard when you are trying to say that the abuse he is receiving is not race related.

I know you will say "Irish isn't a race". He is receiving abuse based on his ethnicity which legally and practically is the same thing.

Given that the only other player to take the stance he has hasn't received the same level of abuse and the history of anti Irish sentiment in the UK it is not a huge jump to suggest that the reason he is getting the abuse is also related to his ethnicity.

This is where we differ in opinion on the topic then. I think it's blatantly obvious that the vast majority of people who are somewhat offended by the poppy situation dislike Mcclean more than Matic because one dresses as a terrorist on social media and the other doesn't.

I don't think that's a stretch of the imagination. Amongst other offensive things he's said and done.

The whole stance on the poppy in areas of Ireland is of course a fair stance if one feels that way about the symbol, if I were one of those people I would hate to have this lad spearheading it though that's for sure.

 

[rumac]

This is where we differ in opinion on the topic then. I think it's blatantly obvious that the vast majority of people who are somewhat offended by the poppy situation dislike Mcclean more than Matic because one dresses as a terrorist on social media and the other doesn't.

I don't think that's a stretch of the imagination. Amongst other offensive things he's said and done.

The whole stance on the poppy in areas of Ireland is of course a fair stance if one feels that way about the symbol, if I were one of those people I would hate to have this lad spearheading it though that's for sure.

Again, for the third time, the abuse started when he was at Sunderland before he had "dressed as a terrorist" on social media. Or indeed made any particularly contentious comments. The tone of the commentary in the media was very much "If he doesn't like it here he can go back to where he came from" right from the very beginning.

 

[RUCK4444]

Again, for the third time, the abuse started when he was at Sunderland before he had "dressed as a terrorist" on social media. Or indeed made any particularly contentious comments. The tone of the commentary in the media was very much "If he doesn't like it here he can go back to where he came from" right from the very beginning.

Sure, I'm just pointing out why perhaps there is a starker difference in peoples opinion between the two players now.

Perhaps your right and there is an underlying tone to it. Personally I disagree with the Poppy being symbolised as anything other than remembrance for the dead, particular those in WW11 from which the Poppy became synonymous, but I respect his decision not to wear it.

That said, I know a fair amount of people who find it physically offensive for somebody to chose not to wear one (to show their respect to those who died in WW11 in particular, in a public/televised setting.) Many who hold the poppy close to their hearts find it difficult, rightly or wrongly, for anybody to think of it in any other way than a simply mark of respect. I think the vast majority of those people have a problem with the players decision rather than their race.

 

[Tel074]

This is where we differ in opinion on the topic then. I think it's blatantly obvious that the vast majority of people who are somewhat offended by the poppy situation dislike Mcclean more than Matic because one dresses as a terrorist on social media and the other doesn't.

I don't think that's a stretch of the imagination. Amongst other offensive things he's said and done.

The whole stance on the poppy in areas of Ireland is of course a fair stance if one feels that way about the symbol, if I were one of those people I would hate to have this lad spearheading it though that's for sure.

So how do you explain the years of abuse before the Balaclava picture ? Your arguement is as ridiculous as the people abusing him .
Well I'm from that part of Ireland and we love that's he is spearheading it .

I agree at times he would be better saying nothing but you don't have people messaging your wife saying I hope your kids get Corona virus and die etc

James has stated he would wear one if it was solely for world war victims as many Irish men died during them wars .

 

[Withnail]

Sure, I'm just pointing out why perhaps there is a starker difference in peoples opinion between the two players now.

Perhaps your right and there is an underlying tone to it. Personally I disagree with the Poppy being symbolised as anything other than remembrance for the dead, particular those in WW11 from which the Poppy became synonymous, but I respect his decision not to wear it.

That said, I know a fair amount of people who find it physically offensive for somebody to chose not to wear one (to show their respect to those who died in WW11 in particular, in a public/televised setting.) Many who hold the poppy close to their hearts find it difficult, rightly or wrongly, for anybody to think of it in any other way than a simply mark of respect. I think the vast majority of those people have a problem with the players decision rather than their race.

It be longer means that, whatever your opinion is that is no longer the reality.

 

[Cutch]

What a great spot Derry is these days. Best city on the island for me to spend a weekend.

Derry is a great city. I wish I could convince the wife to move there

My office is in Derry and I'm not keen on it at all to be honest. Appears very run down with so many homeless and drunks.

 

[RUCK4444]

So how do you explain the years of abuse before the Balaclava picture ? Your arguement is as ridiculous as the people abusing him .
Well I'm from that part of Ireland and we love that's he is spearheading it .

I agree at times he would be better saying nothing but you don't have people messaging your wife saying I hope your kids get Corona virus and die etc

James has stated he would wear one if it was solely for world war victims as many Irish men died during them wars .

Ask yourself this. Who the feck owns a Baraclava in 2020? He either owns one or bought one in advance to make that post. I don't believe anybody is thick enough to post what he did naively.

That incident removed the middle ground for his argument.

I don't think he cares about what he did on social media because his chums back home think he's a bit of a legend for it. Fair enough, local boy and all that. All the best to him. But it doesn't help the ignorant people understand his reasons for it and it undermines his reasoning.

 

[Tel074]

Ask yourself this. Who the feck owns a Baraclava in 2020? He either owns one or bought one in advance to make that post. I don't believe anybody is thick enough to post what he did naively.

That incident removed the middle ground for his argument.

I don't think he cares about what he did on social media because his chums back home think he's a bit of a legend for it. Fair enough, local boy and all that. All the best to him. But it doesn't help the ignorant people understand his reasons for it and it undermines his reasoning.

Sure he's in the RA he needs a Balaclava

 

[RUCK4444]

It be longer means that, whatever your opinion is that is no longer the reality.

It’s a symbol, it is whatever somebody interprets it to be.

Sure he's in the RA he needs a Balaclava

Whats more weird is if he’s not and still owns one. Is he a pro paint baller on the weekends?

 

[NotworkSte]

I never knew Jamie Bryson posted on here

Thought you would be more at home on a Rangers board Jamie

Not going to

I think you should maybe take some of your own advice mate. Genuinely interested are you from Northern Ireland or did you serve here?

Don't know if you can access BBC iPlayer in the US but theres an very good recent documentary from the BBC that details what the British military/intelligence got up to in Northern Ireland. Heres a link.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0008c4b/episodes/player

Don't disagree with you on the IRA either for whats its worth.

Yes I am, and had the displeasure of growing up with issues from the other side. Lived in Ballymena through the whole LVF BS and saw the town get ripped apart.
For what it's worth, I did not serve in NI, but I did grow up there.

I don't think I need any history lessons. One of the reasons I left the province was living through the problems where both sides were at fault I won't need any lessons on how evil the loyalist side are as well. I've had a number of close friends from both sides injured and killed. I've also lived through attacks from the IRA, places like Omagh. I don't draw much if any distinction between any of the groups from either side who front up to the cameras and say one thing and carry out attacks under a different 3 letter acronym. My original post was in response to a comment on about the IRA and how they never oppressed anyone.

To kind of keep this vaguely on topic, I am not from the nationalist community but I fully support James Mclean in his decision not to wear the poppy. I am uncertain if other Derry players also do same, we had Darron Gibson who came from Derry, opted to play for the Republic as well.

 

[Tel074]

It’s a symbol, it is whatever somebody interprets it to be.

Whats more weird is if he’s not and still owns one. Is he a pro paint baller on the weekends?

Jesus you just opened a whole new can of worms . Every paint baller and hunter are also in the RA .

 

[Tel074]

Not going to


Yes I am, and had the displeasure of growing up with issues from the other side. Lived in Ballymena through the whole LVF BS and saw the town get ripped apart.
For what it's worth, I did not serve in NI, but I did grow up there.

I don't think I need any history lessons. One of the reasons I left the province was living through the problems where both sides were at fault I won't need any lessons on how evil the loyalist side are as well. I've had a number of close friends from both sides injured and killed. I've also lived through attacks from the IRA, places like Omagh. I don't draw much if any distinction between any of the groups from either side who front up to the cameras and say one thing and carry out attacks under a different 3 letter acronym. My original post was in response to a comment on about the IRA and how they never oppressed anyone.

To kind of keep this vaguely on topic, I am not from the nationalist community but I fully support James Mclean in his decision not to wear the poppy. I am uncertain if other Derry players also do same, we had Darron Gibson who came from Derry, opted to play for the Republic as well.

Your views are refreshing tbh. No the rest wear the poppy Gibson and Duffy . But I'd guess the reason they do is more to do with the abuse James gets and they would rather just not have it.

 

[NotworkSte]

Your views are refreshing tbh. No the rest wear the poppy Gibson and Duffy . But I'd guess the reason they do is more to do with the abuse James gets and they would rather just not have it.

There is a greater than even chance that is right. And as for any homosexual players, they will see the Mclean abuse and think it isnt worth it.

I often wondered what a chat with Barry Mcguigan would be like. Someone who always seemed to have a united support and what he really felt.

 

[NotworkSte]

I never knew Jamie Bryson posted on here

Thought you would be more at home on a Rangers board Jamie

Not going to lie, I had to google who that was.
Never been to Ibrox. Been to Parkhead when we were playing Celtic. I was, however, a Livi season ticket holder.

 

[Tel074]

There is a greater than even chance that is right. And as for any homosexual players, they will see the Mclean abuse and think it isnt worth it.

I often wondered what a chat with Barry Mcguigan would be like. Someone who always seemed to have a united support and what he really felt.

Yeah same with Frampton. He had the falls road boys on his under card then when he appeared the loyalist songs would come out . It was always a strange evening yet always a peaceful one .

 

[NotworkSte]

Blimey,
Please do some research! The IRA are deemed a terrorist organisation by the British Government, the same Government that was at WAR with Ireland for years and years (operation Banner).
Now, war has two sides, one side is allowed to fight back from a foreign entity invading in a war, and that's the fundamental issue here.
The British army have also colluded with terrorist gangs in Ireland, does that make them a terrorist organisations too?
You've opened up a whole can of worms here mate

I dont want to debate you on this thread on this topic. All I will say is, factually, Banner wasnt a war. And it certainly wasn’t a war between Britain and Ireland.

I didn’t day the British Army didnt committment their own atrocities and crimes (they did) and I did say they werent an invading force. Regardless of why they were sent, Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom.

I do think in my lifetime this will change. And I wouldnt be against that.

 

[The Brown Bull]

I dont want to debate you on this thread on this topic. All I will say is, factually, Banner wasnt a war. And it certainly wasn’t a war between Britain and Ireland.

I didn’t day the British Army didnt committment their own atrocities and crimes (they did) and I did say they werent an invading force. Regardless of why they were sent, Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom.

I do think in my lifetime this will change. And I wouldnt be against that.

Northern Ireland is part of the island of Ireland.
The state, Northern Ireland was created after the Irish war I'd independence 1919~1921.It is an artificial state.
Up until the late 60s it was comparable with Apartheit South Africa as the catholic/nationalist minority were victims of systematic discrimination.
Where inequality and injustice such as this is in force revolution is inevitable.

 

[Champ]

I dont want to debate you on this thread on this topic. All I will say is, factually, Banner wasnt a war. And it certainly wasn’t a war between Britain and Ireland.

I didn’t day the British Army didnt committment their own atrocities and crimes (they did) and I did say they werent an invading force. Regardless of why they were sent, Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom.

I do think in my lifetime this will change. And I wouldnt be against that.

A debate on here isn't healthy on this subject,
But you're incorrect on several counts with this I'm afraid.
Northern Ireland will never be part of the UK, it's a made up border created by Westminster, a unified Ireland is the only way to peace.

 

[Withnail]

It’s a symbol, it is whatever somebody interprets it to be.

No it's not just a symbol that means anything.

The poppy has a specific meaning and it started off as a remembrance for WW1 not WW2. It was inspired by a poem written in 1915.

Besides that, it is a show of support for all of the British Armed Forces in all conflicts. This is why people like Matic and McClean won't wear it.

 

[golden_blunder]

My office is in Derry and I'm not keen on it at all to be honest. Appears very run down with so many homeless and drunks.

It is starting to get a bit depressing, there’s been a lot of shops closing down and pound shops popping up or just boarded up. Alcohol has always been a problem in Derry, that’s why there is a high suicide rate amongst young men.
In all honesty I fear for Derry after brexit as it’s been defunded more and more.

 

[Deery]

My office is in Derry and I'm not keen on it at all to be honest. Appears very run down with so many homeless and drunks.

Have to agree with you there, there’s a large amount of antisocial drinking goes on in the streets and drug use now to a lesser extent, Gives the City a real bad look.

But, some other parts are very nice and pleasant to walk around, it doesn’t help that Belfast get the vast majority of the funding and Derry always get second best.

 

[stevoc]

Not going to


Yes I am, and had the displeasure of growing up with issues from the other side. Lived in Ballymena through the whole LVF BS and saw the town get ripped apart.
For what it's worth, I did not serve in NI, but I did grow up there.

I don't think I need any history lessons. One of the reasons I left the province was living through the problems where both sides were at fault I won't need any lessons on how evil the loyalist side are as well. I've had a number of close friends from both sides injured and killed. I've also lived through attacks from the IRA, places like Omagh. I don't draw much if any distinction between any of the groups from either side who front up to the cameras and say one thing and carry out attacks under a different 3 letter acronym. My original post was in response to a comment on about the IRA and how they never oppressed anyone.

To kind of keep this vaguely on topic, I am not from the nationalist community but I fully support James Mclean in his decision not to wear the poppy. I am uncertain if other Derry players also do same, we had Darron Gibson who came from Derry, opted to play for the Republic as well.

I agree with most of what you've said there mate all the paramilitary groups have blood on their hands.

The only thing you've said that i took exception to was that the British Military/Intelligence weren't regularly involved in atrocities during the troubles. There is now pretty well documented evidence that they were, and their involvement in them only increased as the conflict went on. That documentary i linked you to goes into great detail about their involvement in many murders. And thats from the BBC.

But I'm off topic so i'll leave it there.

 

[Paxi]

He does have a point doesn’t he?

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Champagne Football]

He does have a point doesn’t he?

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

He's not being attacked for being Irish. He's being attacked for bowing his head down during God Save the Queen. Other Irish players don't get the abuse he gets. Anyways it's up to the FA to sort it out, but what exactly can they do? Allow him to come only come out onto the pitch once the song is over? I've no idea how you get around this one

Anyways I'm not gonna get into it again. There's some who staunchly defend him on here, and others who despise him. The debate is not worth it.