James McClean: 'Does being abused for being Irish and anti Irish abuse acceptable?'

[Mockney]

Perfect example is the Netflix show called 'Dear White People'. If you were to inverse the roles: white people criticising, discriminating, insulting and putting down black people and their culture... Would that be allowed in our current society? So i fail to see the difference.

I'm not surprised by it, but I think you should be able to call out these things.

I am willing to bet a million pounds that you haven’t watched Dear White People.

Actually no, go on. A billion.

feck it. I’ll pay you to tell me what you think that shows about?

 

[RochaRoja]

This idea of a "white person" needs to be fixed because people misuse the term. When people talk about "white people" it should be people of priviledge instead. In my unpopular opinion this includes non white people too. There is a privileged class in every society.

Are polish people white? Becuase they sure as hell can complain about racism towards them.

Also ginger people. I dont get how its accepted to make fun of gingers.

Having the piss ripped out of you isn’t the same as actual systemic oppression ffs.

 

[Stookie]

Hes allowed to be a republican? You're making a massive statement about a large population of Northern Ireland with this post.

Not at all mate, I’d be speaking about the whole side of my Dads family if I was. I’m just on about the individual. I totally respect him for standing up to what he believes but surely he has to know that every action has a reaction? Whether I agree with it or not is completely irrelevant. If he doesn’t want to wear the poppy, fine. Wants to disrespect the national anthem, fine. He can do whatever he pleases but then to start complaining about the after effects? Maybe it’s just me I dunno.

 

[RochaRoja]

Part of the problem is that Brits in general (especially the English) tend to be pretty clueless about the troubles and the complexities of Irish identities in general. The ignorance of the average Brit towards their colonial crimes and defensiveness when they’re brought up is really something.

McClean is hated by Brits because he reminds them of a truth they don’t want to be reminded of. It really is analogous to white Americans and the Kaepernick situation.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

Thanks to America, you mean.

When they eventually showed up you mean? If Churchill wasn’t leader we would have likely already surrendered so no I do mean thanks to Churchill

 

[2cents]

Look if an English player played in League of Ireland and refused to stand for the national anthem

Not a fan of McClean, but this is a false equivalence which doesn’t take into account the vastly different historical contexts of the experiences of Englishmen/British in Ireland in contrast with those of Irishmen under British rule.

 

[ivaldo]

Part of the problem is that Brits in general (especially the English) tend to be pretty clueless about the troubles and the complexities of Irish identities in general. The ignorance of the average Brit towards their colonial crimes and defensiveness when they’re brought up is really something.

McClean is hated by Brits because he reminds them of a truth they don’t want to be reminded of. It really is analogous to white Americans and the Kaepernick situation.

He's hated because, however credible his stance is on all this, he's a bellend with it. His refusal to face the flag went beyond being a political statement and became an insult. It wasn't necessary and it wasn't clever. He just wants to create controversy.

 

[stevoc]

He's hated because, however credible his stance is on all this, he's a bellend with it. His refusal to face the flag went beyond being a political statement and became an insult. It wasn't necessary and it wasn't clever. He just wants to create controversy.

That doesn't explain how he's been getting abuse and negative press since 2011-2012, the first time he didn't wear the poppy. That time he turned round during an anthem was in 2015, was he trying to antagonize people probably.

But none of his actions and certainly not turning round during an anthem excuse the abuse and threats he and his family receives regularly. Lets be honest here any Irish player who decided not to wear the Poppy would get similar abuse no matter how respectful they were, so McClean acting the prick isn't why he's being abused. Has it escalated it probably but it didn't start it.

 

[Firstouch20]

Historically when there were no black or brown immigrants the bigots and racist directed their prejudice and discrimination mostly towards the Irish. To the extent that the British dehumanized them by depicting them in caricatures as apes and Neanderthals. People say its banter but anti Irish sentiment goes way back and has a very dark history.

 

[ivaldo]

That doesn't explain how he's been getting abuse and negative press since 2011-2012, the first time he didn't wear the poppy. That time he turned round during an anthem was in 2015, was he trying to antagonize people probably.

But none of his actions and certainly not turning round during an anthem excuse the abuse and threats he and his family receives regularly. Lets be honest here any Irish player who decided not to wear the Poppy would get similar abuse no matter how respectful they were, so McClean acting the prick isn't why he's being abused. Has it escalated it probably but it didn't start it.

It doesn't excuse the abuse, no. It's abhorrent behaviour and anyone who condones it need to take a serious look at themselves. He isn't the only player not to wear it however, and we seen similar actions with the Welsh and Scots refusing to sing God Save The Queen at the Olympics in 2012. That's largely blown over and forgotten about, but it endures with McClean because of things in addition and outside of that controversy in 2011/12.

 

[KristianMackle]

This is a slippery slope for McClean. Sterling and other black players face racism at home and abroad. They dont have the privilege of blending in. McClean comparing his plight, as heinous as it's been, to someone like Sterling is disingenuous.

 

[stevoc]

It doesn't excuse the abuse, no. It's abhorrent behaviour and anyone who condones it need to take a serious look at themselves. He isn't the only player not to wear it however, and we seen similar actions with the Welsh and Scots refusing to sing God Save The Queen at the Olympics in 2012. That's largely blown over and forgotten about, but it endures with McClean because of things in addition and outside of that controversy in 2011/12.

Isn't Matic the only other player so far?

Beyond negative comments on social media the day Matic didn't wear one it was largely forgotten about, we can all have our own theories as to why that was the case. But that definitely wasn't the case with McClean, he'd been on the end of 3-4 years of abuse and negative press by the time of the anthem incident in America in 2015. For the first few years or so Sunderland wouldn't even let him explain why he didn't wear one, not that it would have helped in all likelihood. He was getting abused solely because he decided not to wear a poppy.

As i've said no doubt the things he says and does have escalated the abuse since then but the abuse he got for years possibly contributed to him being more antagonistic also. He's not the sharpest knife in the drawer but years of abuse would affect most people.

 

[ivaldo]

Isn't Matic the only other player so far?

Beyond negative comments on social media the day Matic didn't wear one it was largely forgotten about, we can all have our own theories as to why that was the case. But that definitely wasn't the case with McClean, he'd been on the end of 3-4 years of abuse and negative press by the time of the anthem incident in America in 2015. For the first few years or so Sunderland wouldn't even let him explain why he didn't wear one, not that it would have helped in all likelihood. He was getting abused solely because he decided not to wear a poppy.

As i've said no doubt the things he says and does have escalated the abuse since then but the abuse he got for years possibly contributed to him being more antagonistic also. He's not the sharpest knife in the drawer but years of abuse would affect most people.

Calling the decision to leave him out of the ROI team a 'fecking joke' and an embarrassment shortly after the incident didn't really help, nor did mocking NI's failure to qualify for the euros. Then there was The Broad Black Brimmer incident too, and I'm sure there are others. He knows what he does is going to unduly controversial, but he does it anyway.

I'll stress it again, none of this excuses the abhorrent abuse he has received over the years, but it goes some way to explaining why he's disproportionately disliked in comparison to other players or people who hold similar opinions.

 

[RochaRoja]

This is a slippery slope for McClean. Sterling and other black players face racism at home and abroad. They dont have the privilege of blending in. McClean comparing his plight, as heinous as it's been, to someone like Sterling is disingenuous.

He’s very wrong to play down what Sterling has been on the end of but he also has a point. McClean, like most Catholics in NI, would have grown up in a segregated society where his people had been second class citizens because of the British. The ignorance of people criticising him for “working in a country he hates” when that same country is the one he was born in and lived in his whole life due to British colonialism is staggering. Like Afro-decendents, the Irish have also been considered sub-human and faced huge discrimination in Anglo nations for centuries.

 

[Roy'sMagicHat]

I’m Irish and I cringe every time I see a headline with McClean in the media. He’s not the most intelligent to say the very least and bringing Sterling into it is just idiotic. If he can’t stick it over there, why doesn’t he just go home and play for Derry!? He’s a hypocrite and a painfully average player.

 

[stevoc]

Calling the decision to leave him out of the ROI team a 'fecking joke' and an embarrassment shortly after the incident didn't really help, nor did mocking NI's failure to qualify for the euros. Then there was The Broad Black Brimmer incident too, and I'm sure there are others. He knows what he does is going to unduly controversial, but he does it anyway.

To be honest mate i'll admit some ignorance here but why would anyone in Britain be so offended that McClean reacted badly to being left out of the Ireland team, mocked NI for missing out on a tournament or likes a song about the Irish Civil War in the 1920's?

Genuine question because i personally don't see how any of that would make English football fans so offended that they would feel the need to throw personal abuse his way.

 

[ivaldo]

To be honest mate i'll admit some ignorance here but why would anyone in Britain be so offended that McClean reacted badly to being left out of the Ireland team, mocked NI for missing out on a tournament or likes a song about the Irish Civil War in the 1920's?

Genuine question because i personally don't see how any of that would make English football fans so offended that they would feel the need to throw personal abuse his way.

It's certainly doesn't endear him to the Northern Irish. As I said, it's not necessarily being offended by those specific acts, it's just building on this image of him being a generally unlikable character, which is why I think he gets as much flack for these controversies as he does. It would have blown over by now if it was someone else, but because he doesn't seem to be capable of keeping his head down and not being an arse, it's exacerbated.

 

[stevoc]

It's certainly doesn't endear him to the Northern Irish. As I said, it's not necessarily being offended by those specific acts, it's just building on this image of him being a generally unlikable character, which is why I think he gets as much flack for these controversies as he does. It would have blown over by now if it was someone else, but because he doesn't seem to be capable of keeping his head down and not being an arse, it's exacerbated.

True but the vast majority of people giving him continued abuse are English. I doubt anyone in England would have taken any notice or cared in the slightest about of any of those 3 incidents you mention if it wasn't for the fact it was McClean and the fact he won't wear a poppy.

So while you are saying the abuse from English fans continues because he's an unlikable character who says and does offensive things and that may be true in some cases. It's also possible and probably more likely that most of these English fans who abuse him don't like him and get offended by the things he does and says because he won't wear a poppy.

 

[2 man midfield]

I’m Irish and I cringe every time I see a headline with McClean in the media. He’s not the most intelligent to say the very least and bringing Sterling into it is just idiotic. If he can’t stick it over there, why doesn’t he just go home and play for Derry!? He’s a hypocrite and a painfully average player.

Would you say the same about those hurling abuse at Koulibaly, for example?

 

[ivaldo]

True but the vast majority of people giving him continued abuse are English. I doubt anyone in England would have taken any notice or cared in the slightest about of any of those 3 incidents you mention if it wasn't for the fact it was McClean and the fact he won't wear a poppy.

So while you are saying the abuse from English fans continues because he's an unlikable character who says and does offensive things and that may be true in some cases. It's also possible and probably more likely that most of these English fans who abuse him don't like him and get offended by the things he does and says because he won't wear a poppy.

Which is answered in the second part of the first paragraph. Fans don't have to be offended by someone to think they're a prick. Pricks, like Barton for example, are abused more often then reserved types, like Matic. Rightly or wrongly, he was under the microscope in 2012. Following on from the poppy controversy were several instances of him being a tool. If he hadn't been then it would've been largely forgotten about and the knuckle draggers would've moved on to their next victim. That's why he's as disliked as he is. The original dislike may have come from the poppy, but it's exacerbated that by everything that's followed.

 

[The Mitcher]

I've only ever seen one instance of anti-irish comments during my time as a steward and it was outside of the stadium in Salford, by two fans having an emotional argument after the match was over. Whether or not the Englishman in question ACTUALLY hates the Irish or was trying to provoke the Irishman in question is not something I can say for sure. However, considering stewards across the country have it drummed in to report any kind of speech that can be considered hateful or bigoted, and to warn people or even remove people if need be, I fail to see how the FA are cowardly about it. Also, in all my time, which was almost three or four years, I never saw a person ejected for being bigoted towards the Irish. It's highly unlikely at Manchester United at least, that would have stood.

 

[TwoSheds]

I've only ever seen one instance of anti-irish comments during my time as a steward and it was outside of the stadium in Salford, by two fans having an emotional argument after the match was over. Whether or not the Englishman in question ACTUALLY hates the Irish or was trying to provoke the Irishman in question is not something I can say for sure. However, considering stewards across the country have it drummed in to report any kind of speech that can be considered hateful or bigoted, and to warn people or even remove people if need be, I fail to see how the FA are cowardly about it. Also, in all my time, which was almost three or four years, I never saw a person ejected for being bigoted towards the Irish. It's highly unlikely at Manchester United at least, that would have stood.

While that may be true, that's irrelevant to the abuse he gets from poppy ridden chest beaters all over the country. It doesn't only happen inside football grounds of course, and no official body offers him any support whether inside or out.

I think him playing down racism against Sterling is ridiculous and ignorant, but the abuse he receives for refusing to be bullied into wearing a nationalistic symbol for a country that colonised his own is completely out of order.

 

[The Mitcher]

While that may be true, that's irrelevant to the abuse he gets from poppy ridden chest beaters all over the country. It doesn't only happen inside football grounds of course, and no official body offers him any support whether inside or out.

I think him playing down racism against Sterling is ridiculous and ignorant, but the abuse he receives for refusing to be bullied into wearing a nationalistic symbol for a country that colonised his own is completely out of order.

But what happens online is not even something the FA can do about, he either reports the legit threats to the police or he blocks them.

He was never bullied into wearing it, he literally spouted his poorly worded argument in the press and got hate for it. None of this was an issue for other footballers before he made it one, it's a non-issue. He has also not done himself any favours from then on, and is actively making it worse.

 

[TwoSheds]

But what happens online is not even something the FA can do about, he either reports the legit threats to the police or he blocks them.

He was never bullied into wearing it, he literally spouted his poorly worded argument in the press and got hate for it. None of this was an issue for other footballers before he made it one, it's a non-issue. He has also not done himself any favours from then on, and is actively making it worse.

The FA, the PFA, whoever could easily issue a statement saying they support his stance and condemn the abuse against him. When have they done so? Being a mouthy twat doesn't justify death threats online, in the post, at a football match or by any other means.

 

[stevoc]

Which is answered in the second part of the first paragraph. Fans don't have to be offended by someone to think they're a prick. Pricks, like Barton for example, are abused more often then reserved types, like Matic. Rightly or wrongly, he was under the microscope in 2012. Following on from the poppy controversy were several instances of him being a tool. If he hadn't been then it would've been largely forgotten about and the knuckle draggers would've moved on to their next victim. That's why he's as disliked as he is. The original dislike may have come from the poppy, but it's exacerbated that by everything that's followed.

To be honest mate i don't buy that incidents like those you have mentioned are fuelling this continued abuse to any great extent. Some people like yourself are trying to make sense of it and explain it fair enough others on here seem to be bordering on trying to excuse it.

While some of his actions may or may not have contributed to keeping this abuse going to a small extent. I think a lot of people need to be honest with themselves here and realize the two main obvious factors behind the treatment he receives. He refuses to wear the Poppy and he is Irish.

Those two factors are enough to fuel hatred towards him from the Neanderthal minority of football fans up and down England who spit vitriol at him every week and have done for years. The vast majority of English fans may dislike him to one degree or another thats fine, i don't exactly like him myself. But the majority are also decent reasonable people who wouldn't abuse someone for making a choice they are entitled to.

 

[stevoc]

But what happens online is not even something the FA can do about, he either reports the legit threats to the police or he blocks them.

He was never bullied into wearing it, he literally spouted his poorly worded argument in the press and got hate for it. None of this was an issue for other footballers before he made it one, it's a non-issue. He has also not done himself any favours from then on, and is actively making it worse.

To be fair he didn't make an issue of it, if fans and the British media would have just respected his decision to not wear one then it wouldn't still be an issue 7-8 years later.

 

[ivaldo]

To be honest mate i don't buy that incidents like those you have mentioned are fuelling this continued abuse to any great extent. Some people like yourself are trying to make sense of it and explain it fair enough others on here seem to be bordering on trying to excuse it.

While some of his actions may or may not have contributed to keeping this abuse going to a small extent. I think a lot of people need to be honest with themselves here and realize the two main obvious factors behind the treatment he receives. He refuses to wear the Poppy and he is Irish.

Those two factors are enough to fuel hatred towards him from the Neanderthal minority of football fans up and down England who spit vitriol at him every week and have done for years. The vast majority of English fans may dislike him to one degree or another thats fine, i don't exactly like him myself. But the majority are also decent reasonable people who wouldn't abuse someone for making a choice they are entitled to.

They're wrong to excuse it, but beleive me, it does fuel it. How else would you explain his disproportional abuse in comparison to others?

I don't know whether you're English but being Irish really wouldn't be a driving factor for this hatred. There's no precedent for it being just those things.

 

[POF]

They're wrong to excuse it, but beleive me, it does fuel it. How else would you explain his disproportional abuse in comparison to others?

I don't know whether you're English but being Irish really wouldn't be a driving factor for this hatred. There's no precedent for it being just those things.

Sorry to jump into this conversation but he was the only one to do it initially and he bore the brunt of the tabloid hate campaign. The reason it has been exacerbated is because he outlined that he didn't wear one because of the horrific atrocities carried out by the British armed forces where he grew up.

For those that wear the poppy as a sign of pride in the accomplishments of the British armed forces and bask in empirical pride, stories of members of the armed forces being oppressive murderers is something they don't want to hear. That is why he gets abused.

He might not be the most eloquent or tactful character but his comments on the FA are completely accurate. It is extremely weak leadership.

 

[ivaldo]

Sorry to jump into this conversation but he was the only one to do it initially and he bore the brunt of the tabloid hate campaign. The reason it has been exacerbated is because he outlined that he didn't wear one because of the horrific atrocities carried out by the British armed forces where he grew up.

For those that wear the poppy as a sign of pride in the accomplishments of the British armed forces and bask in empirical pride, stories of members of the armed forces being oppressive murderers is something they don't want to hear. That is why he gets abused.

He might not be the most eloquent or tactful character but his comments on the FA are completely accurate. It is extremely weak leadership.

The hate mob are notoriously fickle. This would have blown over long ago if he wasn’t adamant on surrounding himself with controversy. We’ve seen it time and again. Eventually, they find a new target to be outraged about and you’re left largely alone.

 

[POF]

The hate mob are notoriously fickle. This would have blown over long ago if he wasn’t adamant on surrounding himself with controversy. We’ve seen it time and again. Eventually, they find a new target to be outraged about and you’re left largely alone.

Possibly, but in this case, no matter what he does, it is bound to get raised every year when "Poppy Day" comes around again.

 

[lsd]

To be fair he didn't make an issue of it, if fans and the British media would have just respected his decision to not wear one then it wouldn't still be an issue 7-8 years later.

You know the media and certain fans are counting the days down to poppy day so they can abuse him again .

He made one statement that gets trotted out every year by the media and this apparently us proof he is making and issue of it and bringing the abuse on himself

Then this stupid argument of why does take the money if he hates being here gets trotted out as well .

He can live wherever he wants he pays more taxes than most if the people who come out with this and as he said he doesn't hate British people .

I wouldn't wear a poppy or donate money to anything connected with the British Army because if what they did here where I live .

That doesn't mean I hate Britain or British people or that I support any terrorist group here as I certainly dont same for McLean .

Bottom line is he doesn't deserve to be abused and has a right to feel he should receive more support for the abuse from morons and the media that he receives

 

[Lennon7]

I don’t see why people are so arsed about McLean still. If he feels that the poppy symbol offends him due to the association with the British army then he doesn’t have to wear it. No one can deny the British have committed a ton of out of hand, abhorrent acts in the past - and no one can deny that some of those acts were as recent as during James McLean’s parent’s lifetime.

It’s not like he’s glad the fallen soldiers are dead, or that he means any harm - just that he doesn’t wish to show respect to the same establishment that abused their power and harmed people close to him. It’s a very real thing - it’s all well and good people in Cornwall or Oxfordshire raging behind their computer screen about respect and integrity but they haven’t experienced anything like that.

 

[The Mitcher]

To be fair he didn't make an issue of it, if fans and the British media would have just respected his decision to not wear one then it wouldn't still be an issue 7-8 years later.

Well why did he make it a political issue if he didn't make it an issue?

 

[stevoc]

They're wrong to excuse it, but beleive me, it does fuel it. How else would you explain his disproportional abuse in comparison to others?

Which others mate?

The only other player who has refused to wear a poppy is Matic and as has been pointed out that barely got any negative coverage in the british media if at all and he didn't receive much if any abuse from fans in the stadium.

Stark contrast to the treatment McClean got the first time he didn't wear one.

I don't know whether you're English but being Irish really wouldn't be a driving factor for this hatred. There's no precedent for it being just those things.

My point is mate that the combination of McClean being Irish and refusing to wear the poppy is whats driving this hatred from nationalistic knuckle draggers.

 

[ivaldo]

Which others mate?

The only other player who has refused to wear a poppy is Matic and as has been pointed out that barely got any negative coverage in the british media if at all and he didn't receive much if any abuse from fans in the stadium.

Stark contrast to the treatment McClean got the first time he didn't wear one.



My point is mate that the combination of McClean being Irish and refusing to wear the poppy is whats driving this hatred from nationalistic knuckle draggers.

Literally anyone who has felt the wrath of those fans. Over time it fades, but if you keel surrounding yourself in controversy, it doesn't. I think being Irish has much to do with it at all.

 

[stevoc]

You know the media and certain fans are counting the days down to poppy day so they can abuse him again .

He made one statement that gets trotted out every year by the media and this apparently us proof he is making and issue of it and bringing the abuse on himself

Then this stupid argument of why does take the money if he hates being here gets trotted out as well .

He can live wherever he wants he pays more taxes than most if the people who come out with this and as he said he doesn't hate British people .

I wouldn't wear a poppy or donate money to anything connected with the British Army because if what they did here where I live .

That doesn't mean I hate Britain or British people or that I support any terrorist group here as I certainly dont same for McLean .

Bottom line is he doesn't deserve to be abused and has a right to feel he should receive more support for the abuse from morons and the media that he receives

Definitely mate sections of the media stirred this up and continue to do so probably in an effort to deter other players from choosing not to wear one.

 

[stevoc]

Literally anyone who has felt the wrath of those fans. Over time it fades, but if you keel surrounding yourself in controversy, it doesn't. I think being Irish has much to do with it at all.

I think its a stretch to compare McCleans situation to just any other player who has been abused for whatever reason mate. We can only compare his situation to other players who have made the same choice as him.

Currently thats one other player, and the reaction and treatment they both received for that choice has been vastly different. Maybe that will change this remembrance day for Matic, we will maybe have a better idea after then.

 

[stevoc]

Well why did he make it a political issue if he didn't make it an issue?

The poppy is voluntary he chose not to wear one, that should have been the beginning and the end of the matter but it wasn't. His club at the time wouldn't even let him make a statement for 2 years about it.

So what political issue did he create mate?

 

[Casanova85]

Never trust a man who claims to know "God's truth".

 

[ivaldo]

I think its a stretch to compare McCleans situation to just any other player who has been abused for whatever reason mate. We can only compare his situation to other players who have made the same choice as him.

Currently thats one other player, and the reaction and treatment they both received for that choice has been vastly different. Maybe that will change this remembrance day for Matic, we will maybe have a better idea after then.

That's an incredibly narrow field to come to a conclusion upon. There's so many variables, like being a dick, that has some precedence and goes further to explain it. How often do we hear the same vitriol aimed at the Welsh and Scottish players who made a similar gesture during the 2012 Olympics?