Jamie Carragher

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It's great to see how easily rattled he gets, no wonder he didn't have the bottle to win a title. The same weakness must be rife with the same players he played with. What's the opposite of a mentality monster?
 

TheReligion

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I actually think Charrager is a very good pundit, but he was diabolical in the England squad segment for sure.

Neville was also very daft though, he suggested England's quality is not there yet to be compared to Belgium (when I'd say we are on paper stronger than them, let alone equal). He also completely underrated DCL in his suggestion for Greenwood.
I don't think he was dismissive of DCL. He simply said as a natural finisher, and direct replacement to Kane, he sees Greenwood as the better option. He said DCL is a good counter attacking, run into space kind of striker.
 

FrankDrebin

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I actually think Charrager is a very good pundit, but he was diabolical in the England squad segment for sure.

Neville was also very daft though, he suggested England's quality is not there yet to be compared to Belgium (when I'd say we are on paper stronger than them, let alone equal). He also completely underrated DCL in his suggestion for Greenwood.
I'd say Belgium still have a stronger spine.
Courtois-Alderweireld-Tielemans-KDB-Hazard-Lukaku
 

VP89

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I don't think he was dismissive of DCL. He simply said as a natural finisher, and direct replacement to Kane, he sees Greenwood as the better option. He said DCL is a good counter attacking, run into space kind of striker.
I think he was because DCL has been very clinical this season, and it's a bit weird he was advocating Greenwood for that reason whilst overlooking say Ings.

I'd say Belgium still have a stronger spine.
Courtois-Alderweireld-Tielemans-KDB-Hazard-Lukaku
Not for me, Alderweirald isnt that good anymore.
Aside from KDB I think we have the same or stronger equivalents. Thorgan hazard I think was deployed as wing back so he'd be comparable to Shaw or Chilwell. Munier isn't as good as Walker or TAA let alone James, Fode/Mount I think is better than Tielemans, Rashford and Sterling are better than Mertens and Kane is better than Lukaku. This is before we take considerations for Grealish or Sancho.

Our spine I think is stronger than theirs, but they have more experience of playing together. Technically speaking though, we have more quality I'd say.
 

TheReligion

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@VP89 I don't think it helped that he was talking about DCL after the palace game where he was anything but clinical.

I said in the England thread I think Ings is the best finisher behind Kane currently. No idea why he's dropped off the radar. He's the best option.
 

VP89

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@VP89 I don't think it helped that he was talking about DCL after the palace game where he was anything but clinical.

I said in the England thread I think Ings is the best finisher behind Kane currently. No idea why he's dropped off the radar. He's the best option.
Yes for sure! , Ings was an obvious choice for me. Both Neville and Charrager were playing with bias in their selections.

Neville though was particularly annoying in his overall assessment of the England squad, I think because he wants to protect Southgate. The insinuation that we are not technically comparable to the elite is just stupid. Of course we are, we need to trust how we play.
 

SirMarcusRashford

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Neville's face said it all, Jamie was fully getting on his last nerve toward the end.
I thought Carragher had Neville in the England debate, he has him in most debates really.

Gary Neville's out dated and defensive minded views are part of the reason why England have failed in the past (since Neville was part of England coaching under Hodgson).

Neville's views in how Maguire would be a bigger loss to England than Kane and how Trent Alexander Arnold shouldn't be going to the Euro's is ridiculous really, it's like saying prime Roberto Carlos shouldn't be in the Brazil squad because he wasn't the best defensively, not saying TAA is Roberto Carlos, but he offers something unique (and a world class unique) like Roberto Carlos did at full back.

I've said it before, out of all the exciting youngsters England have coming through TAA is right at the very top of this list.
 

cyberman

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I thought Carragher had Neville in the England debate, he has him in most debates really.

Gary Neville's views are part of the reason why England have failed in the past (since Neville was part of England coaching under Hodgson).

Neville's views in how Maguire would be a bigger loss for England than Kane and how Trent Alexander Arnold shouldn't be going to the Euro's is ridiculous really, it's like saying prime Roberto Carlos shouldn't be in the Brazil squad because he wasn't the best defensively, not saying TAA is Roberto Carlos, but he offers something unique (and a world class unique) like Roberto Carlos did at full back.
Kane has 1 goal for England, from open play, since 2019.
If Kane got injured you could work Grealish in there and not miss his false 10 position. Without Maguire they are down levels and a partner who will bring the best out of stones.
 

Ananke

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I thought Carragher had Neville in the England debate, he has him in most debates really.

Gary Neville's views are part of the reason why England have failed in the past (since Neville was part of England coaching under Hodgson).

Neville's views in how Maguire would be a bigger loss to England than Kane and how Trent Alexander Arnold shouldn't be going to the Euro's is ridiculous really, it's like saying prime Roberto Carlos shouldn't be in the Brazil squad because he wasn't the best defensively, not saying TAA is Roberto Carlos, but he offers something unique (and a world class unique) like Roberto Carlos did at full back.
He didn't say he shouldn't be going. He said that reason is one that Southgate is most likely pondering over and if TAA didn't go that would be why that choice was made.

He had him in his England Squad. I'd be inclined to agree as well, bring Walker/TAA. But with Walker being the more concrete option.
 

GlasgowCeltic

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The best bit of the show yesterday was when Neville created in his head and then ran with the idea that Arsenal's foreign players are some kind of mafia intent on bringing down the club from the inside, based on the team playing badly and his long standing belief that foreigners are generally "bad eggs"
 

horsechoker

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The best bit of the show yesterday was when Neville created in his head and then ran with the idea that Arsenal's foreign players are some kind of mafia intent on bringing down the club from the inside, based on the team playing badly and his long standing belief that foreigners are generally "bad eggs"
What have foreigners ever done for Arsenal? :wenger:
 

NotoriousISSY

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For me, I felt Carragher undermined his TAA argument with the exclusion of Sancho from his squad.

Don't get me wrong, the players in there are all pretty deserving...but his impact on the England set up is equivalent to Trent, as is his record at club level to an extent, whereby his numbers and performances are up there with the world's best in his position.

The rest of it, Neville was surely scripted right?
 

SirMarcusRashford

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Kane has 1 goal for England, from open play, since 2019.
If Kane got injured you could work Grealish in there and not miss his false 10 position. Without Maguire they are down levels and a partner who will bring the best out of stones.
And how many games as he's played in this time? You do know international football stopped for about 10 months due the pandemic right? And i know in 1 of the international breaks (possibly 2) Kane wasn't even called up.

Kane is in the top 3 most lethal strikers in world football (arguably the best), Maguire is no where near the best in his area of expertise. To say a just 'good' (not very good or world class) defender would be a bigger loss than one of the most feared and lethal strikers in world football is laughable
 

cyberman

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And how many games as he's played in this time? You do know international football stopped for so many months due to the pandemic right?

Kane is the top 3 most lethal strikers in world football (arguably the best), Maguire is no where near the best in his area of expertise. To say a just 'good' (not very good or world class) defender would be a bigger loss than one of the most feared and lethal strikers in world football is laughable
But all your talent is up top. Lose Kane and its Grealish inside or Sancho worked in somehow. Lose Maguire and its who? Dier, Mings and Coady.
Its not who is your best player, its importance and I would put Maguire and Rice ahead of Kane in importance simply because of whats behind them.
 

arnie_ni

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But all your talent is up top. Lose Kane and its Grealish inside or Sancho worked in somehow. Lose Maguire and its who? Dier, Mings and Coady.
Its not who is your best player, its importance and I would put Maguire and Rice ahead of Kane in importance simply because of whats behind them.
He even said as much. Kane is the best player, but lose maguire and you have to change your whole formation.

People don't listen.
 

Still ill

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And how many games as he's played in this time? You do know international football stopped for about 10 months due the pandemic right? And i know in 1 of the international breaks (possibly 2) Kane wasn't even called up.

Kane is in the top 3 most lethal strikers in world football (arguably the best), Maguire is no where near the best in his area of expertise. To say a just 'good' (not very good or world class) defender would be a bigger loss than one of the most feared and lethal strikers in world football is laughable
You did listen to his argument, right? He said Kane is clearly the better player. His argument is about team dynamics. He made a fair point and while you may disagree with it, it certainly isn't laughable.
 

TMDaines

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@SirMarcusRashford making a fantastic case for limiting Newbies' posts even further here. I thought it would be quite difficult to bring less to the table than Carragher did in this discussion. Turns out I was wrong.
 

RuudTom83

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People hear what they want to hear.

But it was really frustrating to watch...How can people not differentiate between "What Gary would do!" and "What Gary thinks Southgate will do!"
 

Bubz27

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Carragher really did embarrass himself in that, all in an attempt to undermine Gary as well.

Talks about picking Bellingham over Ward-Prowse because he's playing for Dortmund in the CL then picks Grealish over Sancho?

Picking 3 RBs because Trent can play midfield? When the feck has he ever done that? You've got a younger player who's not been in the best form so change his position in an international tournament?
 

VP89

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Both Charrager and Neville were really shite in that video. I don't think it was just Charrager. I'm still laughing at Neville thinking our technical quality isn't one of the best.
 

FrankDrebin

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Both Charrager and Neville were really shite in that video. I don't think it was just Charrager. I'm still laughing at Neville thinking our technical quality isn't one of the best.
We'll see I guess, though in our last major International showing we were fortunate to beat Columbia, just about beating them on penalties, and got technically outclassed by Croatia.
 

VP89

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We'll see I guess, though in our last major International showing we were fortunate to beat Columbia, just about beating them on penalties, and got technically outclassed by Croatia.
We got to the semi-finals of the World Cup with a team that had a big hole in creative midfield, and a relatively weak center back pairing. The generation that was played however was still very talented and the choices have been even more incredible since that tournament. We now look to the likes of Rice/Phillips for holding, but have Mount/Maddison/Foden/Grealish all as superb creative outlets who can operate centrally or out wide. Rashford is more established and we have Sancho too, not to forget better left back options and a better CB pairing.

Look at the technical quality of our squad and point out which nation is above and beyond that - on paper. At the very least, our talent at disposal is comparable with the very best.
 

SirMarcusRashford

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@SirMarcusRashford making a fantastic case for limiting Newbies' posts even further here. I thought it would be quite difficult to bring less to the table than Carragher did in this discussion. Turns out I was wrong.
1) I'm not a newbie, I've been on and off this forum longer than you looking at when you joined.
2) I don't want to be promoted, 3 posts a day is enough for me.
3) Most of the news and football forums today is laughing at Gary Neville other than the RedCafe, this shows me how this discussion/debate went, Gary Neville is the Jose Mourinho of punditry (prehistoric in his views of the game).
 

charlenefan

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I thought Carragher had Neville in the England debate, he has him in most debates really.

Gary Neville's out dated and defensive minded views are part of the reason why England have failed in the past (since Neville was part of England coaching under Hodgson).

Neville's views in how Maguire would be a bigger loss to England than Kane and how Trent Alexander Arnold shouldn't be going to the Euro's is ridiculous really, it's like saying prime Roberto Carlos shouldn't be in the Brazil squad because he wasn't the best defensively, not saying TAA is Roberto Carlos, but he offers something unique (and a world class unique) like Roberto Carlos did at full back.

I've said it before, out of all the exciting youngsters England have coming through TAA is right at the very top of this list.
You're as bad as Carragher missing the point of what Neville was saying about TAA
 

Harry Harries

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1) I'm not a newbie, I've been on and off this forum longer than you looking at when you joined.
2) I don't want to be promoted, 3 posts a day is enough for me.
3) Most of the news and football forums today is laughing at Gary Neville other than the RedCafe, this shows me how this discussion/debate went, Gary Neville is the Jose Mourinho of punditry (prehistoric in his views of the game).
Oh shut up ya whopper :lol:
 

Djemba-Djemba

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1) I'm not a newbie, I've been on and off this forum longer than you looking at when you joined.
2) I don't want to be promoted, 3 posts a day is enough for me.
3) Most of the news and football forums today is laughing at Gary Neville other than the RedCafe, this shows me how this discussion/debate went, Gary Neville is the Jose Mourinho of punditry (prehistoric in his views of the game).
:lol:

"I don't want to be promoted" for feck sake haha
 

Bubz27

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1) I'm not a newbie, I've been on and off this forum longer than you looking at when you joined.
2) I don't want to be promoted, 3 posts a day is enough for me.
3) Most of the news and football forums today is laughing at Gary Neville other than the RedCafe, this shows me how this discussion/debate went, Gary Neville is the Jose Mourinho of punditry (prehistoric in his views of the game).
1) You are a newbie. It says so under your name. Whether you've been viewing or not is irrelevant. You are a newbie.
2) Good.
3) You mean the footballing media who loves to get clicks by saying whatever they want about United players, past and present? Okay.
 

siw2007

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I agreed with Carragher in the sense that England should trust the technical ability of the team. I appreciate that Neville wants to be pragmatic but we have some very skilful and intelligent players, which we should make use of.

However, I thought that Carraghers challenge on Neville over Trent was bizarre. Neville made a very articulate case on what Southgate might be thinking and Jamie went off on one, I think he knew what Gary was on about but shouted him down because he wanted to make a scene for TV.
 

Marwood

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The best bit of the show yesterday was when Neville created in his head and then ran with the idea that Arsenal's foreign players are some kind of mafia intent on bringing down the club from the inside, based on the team playing badly and his long standing belief that foreigners are generally "bad eggs"
Gary does have a habit of doing that. Gets a bit of an idea and then runs away with it. It's why he has an opinion on everything. Comes with being a pretty intense personality.

A team only has to have a decent opening ten mins against us and he's hailing their system and brilliance. Thirty mins later we're two nil up and their once brilliant system is never mentioned again.
 

El Jefe

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I thought Carragher had Neville in the England debate, he has him in most debates really.

Gary Neville's out dated and defensive minded views are part of the reason why England have failed in the past (since Neville was part of England coaching under Hodgson).

Neville's views in how Maguire would be a bigger loss to England than Kane and how Trent Alexander Arnold shouldn't be going to the Euro's is ridiculous really, it's like saying prime Roberto Carlos shouldn't be in the Brazil squad because he wasn't the best defensively, not saying TAA is Roberto Carlos, but he offers something unique (and a world class unique) like Roberto Carlos did at full back.

I've said it before, out of all the exciting youngsters England have coming through TAA is right at the very top of this list.
Tbf to Gary, England will not dominate the ball with the collection of CB's and CM's they have, they just won't. Modric, Brozovic, Kovacic and Rakitic are all way more comfortable on the ball and better in possession that any of their England equivalents.

In the case of TAA, if he was performing for England as he has for Liverpool over the years, he starts no question. The issue is he has been nowhere close to his best for England. If TAA is not contributing offensively, then the need for him on the pitch reduces considerably. I'd have him in the squad too but he's definitely not a guaranteed starter based on what we've seen.
 

horsechoker

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Pragmatism isn't a bad thing, regarding this England side.
France won the recent WC on it.
Pragmatism isn't that bad in a tournament where you only play 7-8 games, moreover its once every 4 years so winning is a lot more valuable than playing beautiful football.

With that said, I think a country like Brazil wouldn't enjoy a world Cup win playing ultra-defensive pragmatic football.
 

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I'd happily see us shit house our way to a tournament win to be fair. I just think our negative approach will only end up costing us in the end.
 

poleglass red

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Pragmatism isn't that bad in a tournament where you only play 7-8 games, moreover its once every 4 years so winning is a lot more valuable than playing beautiful football.

With that said, I think a country like Brazil wouldn't enjoy a world Cup win playing ultra-defensive pragmatic football.
1994, they won it playing that way, They did get stick for it from their fans for it but all that went out the window when they won it and was seen by the celebrations on the streets by their fans. It wasn't sexy football, very unbrazilian and I'm sure some of their purists still have issues with it, but history will show they were champions
 

Jimmy Skitz

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the point about Kane depends on when he gets injured in the tournament or before it.

I did agree with Carragher on this point though, why are we just accepting Croatia will have more of the ball? our players are better technically than they were 3 years ago
 

Zlatan 7

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the point about Kane depends on when he gets injured in the tournament or before it.

I did agree with Carragher on this point though, why are we just accepting Croatia will have more of the ball? our players are better technically than they were 3 years ago
Because didn’t carragher want to play rice and Arnold in midfield? Good luck controlling the ball with that
 

Jimmy Skitz

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Because didn’t carragher want to play rice and Arnold in midfield? Good luck controlling the ball with that
No that was in comparison with JWP if you were chasing a goal, Carragher’s midfield was Mount Rice Henderson