Summerville was being lined up though maybe he would have taken the money elsewhere anyway.
Anyway we got Tynan Thompson as a developmental player and he looks good (if a bit shy and needing bringing on) and he can learn behind Rashford
Jason Wilcox - Director of Football
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Anyway we got Tynan Thompson as a developmental player and he looks good (if a bit shy and needing bringing on) and he can learn behind Rashford
Those 3 for sure. That would have been my ideal summer. Us starting the season with Fernandes and Andres for CDM, and Sangare and Mainoo for CM. Spend approx £145m.
Cheaper than Baleba 70, Tielemans 35 and Santos 50, total £155m.
We would have signed two strong and mobile young CDMs with great passing and overall high ceilings, and signed another young, mobile and tenacious CM to rotate with Mainoo. We can't turn back time now, but we can sack these frauds in charge.
Deciding him to give him the no 9, might be part of the plan, but this is post rationalising because there was zero chance to sell him. If after the loan we said, actually, he's done really well and we want to reintegrate him and did all of this, because we don't think we could find a better LW option - fair fecks. We all know had Barcelona taken up the offer, he wouldn't be here, because he's currently blowing up our wage structure.
A) we tried, but not cheap enough for anyone to bite b) simply impossible, that would have cost us £30m c) sure, we could have done that, but we had no leverage due to his ridiculous wage. If anyone has paid £25m for him, he'd have been gone in a heartbeat, even after giving him the 9 shirt.
I'm not saying it was all down to Carrick, it's just the actual important parts of reintegrating a player is on the manager and coaching staff, not the decision to keep him - especially in a scenario like Rashford.
I'm not sure how the fact his agent was ringing round trying to flog him days earlier actually makes this any less funny? United spent 3 months trying to get a left back and couldn't get one, that is 99% of the incompetence on display. The 3 months of failure results in them getting so desperate that they get to the final day and think "you know what we had a call from an agent the other day. Let's enquire with our City rivals if they can do us a favour and loan us their left back on favourable terms with a few hours left in the window". That's just the cherry on top of a hilarious summer of failure.
You're right, it's not that deep, it's just comical.
We have two right backs who frankly aren't particularly good right backs, and they think they're adequate cover at left back. That would be exactly the problem, their standards are through the floor and they're not interested in giving the manager the best possible chance of success.
The thing with Dorgu is, if we'd played him as a full back, trained him as a full back, gave him a pre season as a full back, and gone into the transfer window being honest with Carrick that we won't be signing a left back - I'd have made my peace with not signing in that position. The problem is our manager very clearly sees him as a winger and hasn't put him anywhere near the defence in 8 months. So to tell the manager we have a left back on the priority list going into the window, and then on 1st September turn round and say "sorry Michael, about that left back we said we were getting you.. that's not happening, you'll have to use your winger at full back instead".... It just reeks of incompetence.
I do have some sympathy with the recruitment team as they don't set the budget, the owners have likely screwed them by not giving them sufficient funds to work with to fill the positions that needed filling.
I see a lot of people trying to play down this left back issue as if it's no big deal. We have one senior first team left back in the squad, and he's old, washed, injury prone and has already cost us several goals this season. It's just not acceptable, it's really, really bad and could cost us a lot of points this season.
And I will never, ever buy this idea that there isn't a left back that exists in world football who we could have brought in that would have done a good job for us. It's just a wild statement to believe that. We also need two left back over the next 12 months because our only left back, Shaw, is gone next summer when his contract is up. If we can't find a single left back this summer, how the hell are we going to find two next summer.
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City are definitely number 1 for me. Always have been in the area of Manchester I grew up in.fecking hell. There's been some crash outs today.
Absolute bollocks being spouted.
Complete meltdowns causing posters on whatever platform to come across moronic.. or dramatic or whatever
But holy shit.
City our biggest rivalsgo to bed ffs
Yeah, and on top of that, we need an RB, two CBs, ST, and an RW. It’s not going to happen. We’re screwed with these clowns.
Every game Shaw misses, or gets skinned for a goal there should be a nice shiny turd in Wilcocks mailbox
3rd if you exclude the 'sporting rivalries' like Arsenal
Liverpool
Leeds
City
Its only since Abu Dhabi they became relevant, and its an advertisement of a country now not a football club. Man City is dead and gone. Just a flesh suit being worn by something else
I think Wilcox had granted GLINEOS some low hanging fruit. If I was SJR I'd sack the guy tomorrow morning and then flood the media world with stories of how incompetent he is. It would probably be received better then the Rashford being like a new signing thing.
Not adressing LB this summer is obviously a huge let down. He had all summer and came up not even with a creative solution. No scouting of a cheaper player from a different league like Lammens. Further, I dont think we are opportunistic enough to go for a really big player once they come available. We rather sit and pray a player finally choses us, pushes the price down like Tchouameni or Fernandes or Hall, only to move on weeks or months later and become desperate. Does not look like he has a clue or game plan.
Hall or Page we might get later but what if not? We cannot afford to lose out on top English talents anymore, competition is incredible.
Hall or Page we might get later but what if not? We cannot afford to lose out on top English talents anymore, competition is incredible.
Do you not think his hands are tied by the debt the glazers and ineos (mostly the glazers) have put on the club.
It doesn’t matter which DoF we get in, if the club have to spend £50m on servicing the debt each year, that could have been Lewes Hall this year (ok, another £10m but you get the gist).
Maybe they just didn’t want to waste £25m on someone they knew wasn’t good enough.
Just as frustrated as everyone is - I just don’t think blaming the DoF is the answer when the answer is the debt that’s suffocating us
There's no way we would have bought players with minimal experience either with age or PL experience.
It's why we went for Ederson whilst trying for Fernandes but as soon as we pulled out of Fernandes we pulled out of Ederson. Then we replaced Fernandes with Tielemans & Baleba with Ederson. Santos & Chema Andres are similair in play style and it's argumentative who is better right now.
I don't really blame the DOF either - but i don't understand why nearly every clubs seems to be in Debt but it's only affecting us in the window.
I don't know why people say this. I'd rather be run like Man City & PSG than the bloody Glazers.
Is it just because they are American that they are better than Middle Eastern marketing? We haven't progressed in any aspect under the Glazers and people say they would rather stay with the glazers than under people who actually know what they are doing.
Look at the quality of players Man City & PSG have. I'd trade the ability to right Emirates on our football shirt for that type of squad any day of the week. Really don't see why Americans are seen as good investors whilst middle Eastern ones are bad. We literally have greedy American owners right in front of our eyes and some people are saying the grass is not greener on the other side.
Carrick Is said to prefer one attacking full back and another hanging back to form a back 3. So he may have Heaven, Mazraoui or even Martinez as options instead of a specialist player. If that’s the case, it makes sense to save the money for Lewis Hall next summer.
There's a lot of mistakes that an experienced DOF would have avoided
a- we wouldn't have leaked to the media that we're obsessed with Eliot Anderson. That raised expectations to the roof and made us look silly once he moved to City without us not even bothering bidding for him
b- we would have sold Rashford for 13m. That would have gotten rid of his huge salary (that's almost 16m per year for 2 years) and would have added 13m to our coffers in pure profit. It would have allowed us to move for a LB.
c- an experienced DOF would have more contacts in different board rooms which would have facilitated sales
d- we shouldn't have been so obsessed with EPL proven players whose prices are ridiculously inflated especially considering our very limited budget (our net spend was less than that of Ipswich and Coventry)
e- we should have considered at a very early stage alternative ways of signing players like loan deals and signing free agents. Vlahovic could have been a decent backup for Sesko.
f- we would have capitalized on Lisandro's and Mazraoui's success at the WC by selling them. Now we're stuck with two injury prone players, both unsuited to our game, one of whom with just 1 year left in his contract (with an extension that once activated will probably eat more of the profit we could make out of any deal).
However that's not the point I am trying to make. If things go wrong Glineos will be under intense pressure as they can't pin this on the manager. I mean every man and his dog knows by now that Carrick wasn't backed. Sacking Wilcox is low hanging fruit. Let's face it, a man with just 12 months experience as a DOF at Southampton shouldn't be there in the first place.
Who is the most important person contributing to the success of the club in the history of Manchester United?
Now do the same for City.
Man Utd is a football club that generates its own revenues off the history and work of football people
Man City is a vehicle for promoting Abu Dhabi. The money comes from a nation state.
Its clear we are working in a different financial situation to other clubs. Yeah the glazers etc etc last 10 years etc and all that, the question is what type of transfer window have we delivered this summer with all the relevant constraints, existing contracts with large wages etc. At the end of last season we knew that for a realistic window we needed to rebuild the midfield, get a left back and maybe an attacker depending on Rashford + Zirkzee. They've delivered a midfield rebuild with 3 good players that give us far more depth at a far more consistent quality than we have had in years. With a potential starting 2 of Kobbie and Baleba that I think if they click has the potential to be one of the best mids in the league. Having Youri and Santos as back up players is also a nice step up. Just because our CMs didnt all cost over 100mil doesn't mean it wasn't good business. If anything, they will likely end looking like smart pieces of business if they just play to the standard that they have reached before.
The left back is an issue and a challenge they didn't solve. However, if they believe we can get Hall next summer for a realistic price, similar to how we got Baleba this summer for a lower price then that is not an issue. Signing Hall wasn't going to suddenly transform us into title challengers. At the same time, I don't think we are hugely deficient across our backline to stop us getting Champions League.
The attack was always going to come down to whether we could move Rashford and Zirkzee on, which we couldn't so it is what it is. Our squad is bloated and partly due to poor signings in the past and the wages of players. We have 2 attackers in Rashford and Zirkzee we can't move on, no way were we realistically getting an attacker without them moving on. If Rashford just plays his part this season and moves on next summer we have one of the best set of attackers in the league in him, Cunha, Mbuemo, Sesko, Bruno, Amad.
All in all its been a decent summer relative to what we wanted at the beginning of the season, could have been much better if we got the left back and moved Rashford and Zirkzee on, however its a 6 out of 10 for me. In no way do I think this stiches up Carrick. The expectation is still Champions League qualification, get out the league phase and go deep in a cup. That should be achievable this season with this squad.
It's not post rationalising. I said it was a well executed pivot. The point I'm making is they have prepared well for alternative scenarios and it's shown in the smoother reintegration process of Rashford and the pivot to a midfield rebuild we didn't expect from the favourites in good time.
A) we did not try to entertain any further loans for Rashford. We made a strict move of sell or obligation.
Your rebuttals to B) and C) don't make as much sense. Arsenal cleared Aubameyang this way. And the way clubs were scurrying for wingers/ forwards on deadline day doesn't lend itself to the idea, where are least a loan offer would have been much more likely.
It makes zero sense as our left side will suffer. Martinze or Heaven are not ideal and will not enhance out attacking play. Maz I have little faith. So it is not about someone playing there, we needed quality in that position. And who knows if Hall joins us next summer, especially if we dont make CL
How do they not make sense, you seriously believe we would pay to terminate Rashford's 2 year, 300k a week contract? No one is interested in paying wages like his that apart from Turkey, which he isn't interested in going to. There is simply no other option but to keep him.
Fair enough if you think that's a well executed pivot, I think that's an extremely generous description of events, hence the laughing face originally.
There was obviously loan interest in Rashford, we just stood firm for once. That deserves credit because we gained a motivated looking player that no one could have anticipated by doing so.
Everyone has a raging boner about how well Arsenal are and that's exactly what they did with Aubemeyang so yes I think it's a plausible scenario.
As for the narrative being painted, I just said the integration was a well executed and unexpected pivot. Which it was. And that point was part of a much broader post covering multiple facets. You decided to micro debate into it and have complete refusal to give any credit which is true to form in this thread.
You even came this summer and doubled down on the view that we didn't need to recruit the manner we did last summer when it clearly worked well FFS
Does anyone know the reasons why the loan moves for either Balde or Salinas were aborted/didn't work out? I think the reasons why would explain, to an extent, the level of profligacy by the DoF. On the face of it, an 11th hour move for Alt Nouri looks negligent and devoid of sensible strategy or execution - and incredibly poor contingency planning.
Bring back Dan Ashworth 
The worst part of all this mate is that we had Jean Claude Blanc who’s a very experienced, massively respected and highly successful footballing CEO from his work at Juve and PSG already in place as well as Dan Ashworth who’s a very experienced, massively respected and highly successful Director Of Football also in place then let them both go for complete novices pretty much based on the fact they were at City and are friends
I obviously don’t know what Van Der Sar’s mindset is right now in regards to a return to football but he was thought of as one of the most highly rated young CEO’s in football as he’d got a masters degree in sports management and also was a very good marketing director on top of all his footballing experience and knowledge of the game so has been a CEO and years of footballing decision making experience, in regards to replacing Hargreaves whats Marina Granovskaia up too these days as wasn’t she a negotiator for Chelsea ?
There’s also so many highly experienced and successful Director’s Of Football out there too that are available like Paul Mitchell or could be brought in after building a reputation like Lee Dykes at Brentford, Roberto Olabe at Sociedad and Simon Rolfes at Leverkusen and I think of combination of any of those with Vivell would work a million times better than what we have
Where does the money come from to show this serious intent?
This is the net spending of big clubs in last 10 years(2016-2026), this highlights the issue that we needed a proper DoF all along. I am not supporting owners but with a good structure we could have done better on the pitch.
To be honest Jason is not bad compared to our time in between 2013-2024 but still not enough for a club like UTD
I know its on owners for an average window in this summer, but overall its their ineptness to bring in a proper DoF since 2013.
To be honest Jason is not bad compared to our time in between 2013-2024 but still not enough for a club like UTD
I know its on owners for an average window in this summer, but overall its their ineptness to bring in a proper DoF since 2013.
| # | Club | Arrivals | Departures | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 |  | Manchester United | €2.06bn | €604.95m | €-1,454.39m | ||
| 2 |  | Manchester City | €2.58bn | €1.30bn | €-1,280.19m | ||
| 3 |  | Arsenal FC | €1.81bn | €541.87m | €-1,268.94m | ||
| 4 |  | Tottenham Hotspur | €1.84bn | €736.57m | €-1,098.93m | ||
| 5 |  | Chelsea FC | €3.12bn | €2.14bn | €-975.14m | ||
| 6 |  | Liverpool FC | €1.73bn | €850.12m | €-882.46m |
Bring back Ralf (just not as manager/coach)Bring back Dan Ashworth
Race and propaganda. PSG have been Europe's best for 2 years and been knocking on the door for 3 years before that. They are very well run.
I agree, Wilcox was probably backstabbing Ashworth and just being more brash and vocal around Ratcliffe, and now the problem for Ratcliffe is he can't save face if he sacks Wilcox.
Bottom line is changes are needed irrespective of what happened before. Vivell and Paul Mitchell I can get behind but we could have had him when he was available.
We're idiots, even at the very top. INEOS have no track record of success. I wouldn't be surprised if Amorim had more to do with our signings last summer than Wilcox.
I will keep saying this until I am blue in the face, time and time again, we see this fan fiction in the fanbase that pits Vivell against Wilcox as if it is some kind of battle of the wits against the pair of them. For some unknown reason Vivell is pitted as superior to Wilcox and Wilcox is this inept fool that doesn’t know what he’s doing and Vivell is god reincarnated.
In reality, the whole transfer committee have to be aligned on transfers and no move for any player is made until the whole transfer department is on board with it. That’s from Vivell, Wilcox, the data department and Ratcliffe who signs off on it.
It’s mind boggling as to how often this Vivell vs Wilcox ridiculousness is spouted whenever there’s some negativity around a transfer it’s preposterous. If anything Wilcox is Vivell’s boss in the grand scheme of things.
Wilcox is the boss, with overall say. I can't see Tielemans being a Vivell choice.
Who exactly? That was prepared actually cover his wages? I mean, we've seen this before with Rashford, let's see where we are later in the season. I am happy with what I saw against Ipswich though, so hopefully that can continue.There was obviously loan interest in Rashford, we just stood firm for once. That deserves credit because we gained a motivated looking player that no one could have anticipated by doing so.
Everyone has a raging boner about how well Arsenal are and that's exactly what they did with Aubemeyang so yes I think it's a plausible scenario.
As for the narrative being painted, I just said the integration was a well executed and unexpected pivot. Which it was. And that point was part of a much broader post covering multiple facets. You decided to micro debate into it and have complete refusal to give any credit which is true to form in this thread.
You even came this summer and doubled down on the view that we didn't need to recruit the manner we did last summer when it clearly worked well FFS
That's not the part people admire though, it's the general squad building. Aubameyang was a far more unprofessional character to Rashford, I don't think he's anywhere near as bad as an influence. We've been complaining about our budget all summer, we're hardly going to torpedo it further.
Yeah, I highighted a particular point I disagreed with. I can see the argument for how we recruited this summer, I've been consistent on my opinion, so why would I re-hash an argument we've already had? I've given credit on the individuals he's signed, the contract changes to be more performance based and his young player recruitment. The idea I'm not giving him any credit, is because people seem to claim there is literally no altenative way to build this squad, than what he's doing and to use your terminology, I'm meant to 'have a raging boner' about our squad despite it's obvious imbalances. Don't be so sensitive, I see the obvious positives he's done and I see the obvious drawbacks that I think could cause us issues.
Again, it remains to be seen if the same strategy works now we're in all competitions. I don't think it's exactly the same strategy, because we've not replaced things we've lost in Casemiro. Last summer we were replacing people who were dog. In the first two games, the things I was concerned about in pre-season - aerial threat and vunerability to transitions, still remain. The player that I think could solve one of those things, won't even be available until potentially after the international break.
Ralf has definitely shown more in the squad building and talent ID areas of this job, which is what most are concerned about. People keep talking about Ashworth, but his best work is always said to be more structural with the England set up and is likely why he has ended up back there as opposed to snapped up by another club to do the role.
Ratcliffe intimated that Ashworth wasn't what he had been sold to be and the minimal interviews I had seen from Ashworth sounded like his job was not quite the "transfer guru and squad builder" fans would be expecting/keep mentioning him as.
He was a crap manager (mainly due to players not respecting him) but if we had made him director of football back then and not let ten hag waste 100s of millions on crap we would be so much better off
From the outside looking in I think it was more a power grab by Berrada and Wilcox being a weasel in following Berrada knowing his mate would give him a more prominent position mate, whether Ashworth would have worked out as planned we’ll never know but the complete fact is he was the only one there qualified and experienced to do his role
Ratcliffe looks terrible no matter what though as he bigged up Ashworth then apparently all his ideas and sided with Berrada’s big talk and spin so let Ashworth go then Ineos/Berrada/Wilcox/Amorim oversaw our worst season in 40+ years and only got rid of Amorim because he badmouthed Ineos then Ineos went with Ashworth’s ideas anyway
Much like sacking Amorim was a horrible look for Ratcliffe as it was known Ashworth was against bringing him in it’ll be the same with sacking Berrada and Wilcox as they much like Amorim were Ineos appointments and they’ve been as big of a disaster as Amorim was, as you said Ineos have zero record of success and in reality are associated with mediocrity and piss poor decisions which because they weren’t as high profile as United flew under the radar
If Ineos had any sense they’d bin Berrada and Wilcox off and bring it Jean Claude Blanc or Van Der Sar as CEO then any of Paul Mitchell, Lee Dykes, Simon Rolfes or Roberto Olabo as it’s clear as day that experienced and proven heads were needed from day one to override the Glazer’s and Ineos’ incompetence in footballing decisions
It’s well known that Ashworth isn’t a transfer guru or squad builder and that he’s at his best putting together footballing structures then overseeing it which is exactly what he was brought in to do whilst Vivell came in as the transfer guru and the footballing structure of the recruitment team and scouting network would work together in squad building
From the minute Sir Alex retired we needed someone at the top who could oversee it all which Ashworth specialises in and had been successful in with England, Brighton and Newcastle and why none of those three wanted to lose him and if Ineos thought Ashworth was a squad builder or transfer guru it says they didn’t actually do any background due diligence into what Ashworth does and they wouldn’t have got Vivell in either
This. We talk about hiring the best in class, but we constantly hire people in critical roles with no previous proper experience. Ashworth was the only one with a decent CV but got sacked because he rejected a stupid decision pushed by our new CEO who has never been a CEO in another club before.
Its been widely reported Jim didn't know what ashworths strengths were despite singling him out as the person we wanted as our director of football and paying a lot for him
I don't get why we have vivell. Pretty much all of our signings are just obvious premier league players
I think 25% of posters on the cafe could do an equal or better job than Wilcox on recruitment.
Give the 25% a budget, laptop, phone and a contacts list.
Give the 25% a budget, laptop, phone and a contacts list.
The Dunning Kruger Effect.