These kinds of posts are so lazy, you have said nothing to argue or dispute what I am saying, you just attempt to slag me off and play down my comments because you have no real argument.An embarrassing post. But pretty much the level of half wittery I was expecting when I came in here.
Murtough 2.0
How does some nobody with zero pedigree in the game luck into the DOF for the biggest club in the world? How is he going to compete with the Campos' and Bertas of the world? Does Jason Wilcox have the vast network of these guys or are we going to continue to pursue only city and Southampton players just to be rejected by them anyway?
INEOS are an absolute shitshow.
Murtough worked for Everton, Fulham and Coventry, and is responsible for Alvaro Fernandes, Garnacho and Amad, so I would say at this point Wilcox has a long way to go to even match that, because those three will be top players in the world in the next few years.
Not sure anyone can call Heaven or Obi successes at this point, we all hope they will be, but Heaven played like three games and United fans decided in their minds that those three performances will make him the best left sided CB in the game, maybe lets wait and see. Obi is just a kid, and again wait and see, don't see much there yet to be honest, but I won't judge him so far, and no one should be holding him up as a success either.
Jason Wilcox played lower league football mostly, not sure how that makes him an expert or highly connected. So far most of his signings look like they are struggling to be successful, and he was part of a team that gave Ten Hag and extension, bought him players and then sacked him. There is nothing so far to suggest he has any idea what he is doing.
This is just a cheap internal hire because it would be more difficult and more expensive to go out there and get someone with some pedigree in the game. Think back about 15 months, if anyone suggested Jason Wilcox of Southhampton should be our DOF they would have been laughed out of the place, at least after people googled him and find out who he was. Now has he done anything in the time since to raise his stock in the game?
I'm amazed people still don't get this.Typical nonsense hyperbole.
Do you know what his credentials are? Have you interviewed him?
The vast network for transfers is Vivell as head of recruitment, Wilcox has been credited with the likes of Heaven & Chido so better than Murtough.
Murtough 2.0 really - Head of Youth at City - DOF at Southampton - 1 year as Technical Director at United clearly no experience.
Just because he isn't a fancy name, Txiki Begiristain has little experience when he joined Barca in 2003, Edu at arsenal.
Clearly a shitshow, 2 transfers nearly boxed off in the first week of the window, sack them all now.
“Moved to a role with wider responsibilities”On principle no one should be promoted after that season we had. Better we had another label for the move.
Personally, I feel much better about Wilcox and Vivell than I have about any of the other front office appointments we've made since 2013, but I can understand being skeptical, as the club hasn't done much over the years to earn the benefit of the doubt.Murtough 2.0
How does some nobody with zero pedigree in the game luck into the DOF for the biggest club in the world? How is he going to compete with the Campos' and Bertas of the world? Does Jason Wilcox have the vast network of these guys or are we going to continue to pursue only city and Southampton players just to be rejected by them anyway?
INEOS are an absolute shitshow.
Murtough was the brainchild for the Elite Performance Plan while working for the Premier League which completely revolutionized youth football in England and kickstarted England’s dominance at youth tournaments throughout the 2010s at national and club level. He then overhauled our academy which is also one of the best and has been matching City stride for stride in recent years.I do know who he is... he was at everton, then was part of our academy set up, where he did quite well actually, then our womens team before becoming our DoF.
The problem is he got given the DoF at United and has been at United since 2013... part of the Glazer / Woodward show.
Wilcox has been part of one of the best academies right now... producing talent on a yearly basis... yep they are the same.
It should be noted that the two main rumours at the time were that Wilcox was the main one who wanted ETH sacked, and also that it was him discussing the suicidal tactics with him that resulted in ETH finally changing those tactics in the last few games on 23/24 which probably resulted in us winning the FA Cup.and he was part of a team that gave Ten Hag and extension, bought him players and then sacked him. There is nothing so far to suggest he has any idea what he is doing.
This is just a cheap internal hire because it would be more difficult and more expensive to go out there and get someone with some pedigree in the game. Think back about 15 months, if anyone suggested Jason Wilcox of Southhampton should be our DOF they would have been laughed out of the place, at least after people googled him and find out who he was. Now has he done anything in the time since to raise his stock in the game?
He then overhauled our academy which is also one of the best and has been matching City stride for stride in recent years.
People need to stop trying to judge our corporate staff the way they assess our players.
Marginal brains
Anyone who has been around this forum for any length of time will tell you that I have a reputation for highly detailed, well thought out arguments, often delivered in essay format. You really don't want me to dissect your ill informed and knee jerk post. Frankly I gave you the only response that was worth either of our time.These kinds of posts are so lazy, you have said nothing to argue or dispute what I am saying, you just attempt to slag me off and play down my comments because you have no real argument.
Posts like this are why I actually don't enjoy these types of message boards anymore, the self-righteousness of this post followed by zero substance is becoming far more common than actually disputing substance.
I agree with your posts.Murtough was the brainchild for the Elite Performance Plan while working for the Premier League which completely revolutionized youth football in England and kickstarted England’s dominance at youth tournaments throughout the 2010s at national and club level. He then overhauled our academy which is also one of the best and has been matching City stride for stride in recent years.
So if you’re only part about Wilcox is about developing talent at academy level, then yes they are quite similar.
You’ll have to educate me on lower league football. Considering he played 11 years at Blackburn Rovers who got relegated to Division One and then he spent 5 years at Leeds. Not sure when they got relegated but that’s over 10 years of playing at the highest level in English football. You best have a good rebuttal to what the lower league is.Murtough worked for Everton, Fulham and Coventry, and is responsible for Alvaro Fernandes, Garnacho and Amad, so I would say at this point Wilcox has a long way to go to even match that, because those three will be top players in the world in the next few years.
Not sure anyone can call Heaven or Obi successes at this point, we all hope they will be, but Heaven played like three games and United fans decided in their minds that those three performances will make him the best left sided CB in the game, maybe lets wait and see. Obi is just a kid, and again wait and see, don't see much there yet to be honest, but I won't judge him so far, and no one should be holding him up as a success either.
Jason Wilcox played lower league football mostly, not sure how that makes him an expert or highly connected. So far most of his signings look like they are struggling to be successful, and he was part of a team that gave Ten Hag and extension, bought him players and then sacked him. There is nothing so far to suggest he has any idea what he is doing.
This is just a cheap internal hire because it would be more difficult and more expensive to go out there and get someone with some pedigree in the game. Think back about 15 months, if anyone suggested Jason Wilcox of Southhampton should be our DOF they would have been laughed out of the place, at least after people googled him and find out who he was. Now has he done anything in the time since to raise his stock in the game?
We have Luke Fedorenko who is the head of youth recruitment at United and it's his job to bring up targets for the club to sign and not the job of Jason Wilcox. So signings like Ayden Heaven and the young kid Obi, are signings that that have come via the youth recruitment structure.
Bar exceptional sales we will have to sacrifice one of those last two positions for this summer. So given a choice which do you feel is the most important for this season?We want to see results. If this window Wilcox could deliver the following. He will be the best ever DOF in Man Utd.
Cunha, Gyokeres, Mbeumo, a GK and a CM. Perfect for first year rebuild. We should be able to qualify for CL and have much more funds next window for Phase 2 of the rebuild.
Hands down GKBar exceptional sales we will have to sacrifice one of those last two positions for this summer. So given a choice which do you feel is the most important for this season?
I think it's too early to say this but he certainly has it all to prove as do Ineos.Murtough 2.0
How does some nobody with zero pedigree in the game luck into the DOF for the biggest club in the world? How is he going to compete with the Campos' and Bertas of the world? Does Jason Wilcox have the vast network of these guys or are we going to continue to pursue only city and Southampton players just to be rejected by them anyway?
INEOS are an absolute shitshow.
I just worry about still lacking athleticism in CMHands down GK
Fair point. But it will be ultimate disaster to rely on Onana for another season in goal.I just worry about still lacking athleticism in CM
I thought everyone should be worried about buying a striker to replace the hapless Hojlund. It does seem we need an overhaul in almost every department.I just worry about still lacking athleticism in CM
Any club that signs youth players not on the basis of the person they've put in charge of recruitment is a badly run club.There is really no basis for this man, give it up. Many sources reported it was Wilcox's personal connections. Just because normally your underling brings you reports doesn't mean you can't say bring this guy in.
We want to see results. If this window Wilcox could deliver the following. He will be the best ever DOF in Man Utd.
Cunha, Gyokeres, Mbeumo, a GK and a CM. Perfect for first year rebuild. We should be able to qualify for CL and have much more funds next window for Phase 2 of the rebuild.
Agree but if he pulled that off he will be better DOF than many in the PL clubs except maybe City and Pool.I don't think that's a high bar since that's just Murtough and Ashworth..
How can you say that before any of them have kicked a ball for us ? Also it’s highly unlikely we get more than one or two players after Cunha and Mbeumo as anything else will be dependent on sales. Which seems a rather bizarre allocation of funds being that we actually have a few players in their position but are lacking in every other area of the pitch.Agree but if he pulled that off he will be better DOF than many in the PL clubs except maybe City and Pool.
I gave you tons of examples in the next post. In fact, most clubs are using that approach now and it is exactly what Jimmy promised in his interviews.You are reading too much between the lines, and too little on them.
I asked a question, it wasn’t a rethorical question or a ‘gotcha’ attempt. The question was fairy simple, and not the one you answered in this post.
Q: Are there any examples of a club that a) hired a DoF that was A) already established as a succesfull Dof/SF at that point, and then B) became a success/improved that team subsequently?
I think we can safely say this for Campos going to PsG, and for Begiristain going to City. Are there others? Many others? I struggle to think of them or remember them.
Questions about manager power or emotional scouting are completely different questions, that I didn’t ask. Not everything is a trap in this world.
I only cited PSG as they were a recent example where we saw fruits of careful planning work out. It was also simply not about them winning the CL but the formation a team that is young and talented enough to last. They moved on from their Galactico approach and it gave way to careful planning.You did give one example, although it could be argued that a single example only demonstrates that the single example works. There are plenty of other examples in this situation, and you list a bunch in the next paragraph, but I'm referring specifically to your original statement that it isn't your job to provide examples, when making a point it should be backed up with some kind of evidence in order for it to have credibility.
I agree that we've been left behind in terms of modernising our talent identification and recruitment, but it's important to keep in mind that none of the clubs you've provided as examples rely on a single person, it's about the entire department, smart use of data, and succession planning.
The enriching of his agency I presume is a dig at Ten Hag, but we should never have been relying on his transfer targets in the first place. Fortunately, it looks like we aren't relying on managers to be scouts anymore. As for his veto, while it's odd if it's contractual, in practice I'm sure plenty of managers have vetoes, naming 5 would be simple. You aren't going to give the likes of Pep, Simeone, Inzaghi, De Zerbi, or even Conte, players that they don't want. Managers should absolutely have a say in who gets recruited, but it shouldn't be the final word, and nor should they be relied upon for identifying targets.
I think scepticism is fair, even sensible really, but it has to be accepted that there will be growing pains with the new structure, as we've been trying to assemble it at breakneck speed. Ashworth was a casualty of that, as it was one too many chefs. This window is looking promising, and while Wilcox hasn't been a DoF before, he's supported by the very experienced Vivell as a Director of Recruitment, so there's definitely experience in our burgeoning team.
Well, for a start you can't do any better than Cunha and Mbeumo given our situation. This is to directly address our most pressing issues, creativity and scoring goals. They are PL proven and played the same system as Amorim's. Much less risks there.How can you say that before any of them have kicked a ball for us ? Also it’s highly unlikely we get more than one or two players after Cunha and Mbeumo as anything else will be dependent on sales. Which seems a rather bizarre allocation of funds being that we actually have a few players in their position but are lacking in every other area of the pitch.
Well personally I think going for Cherki at £30-40m and spending the rest of the budget on CF, CM and GK would’ve been far more sensible considering that our sales will probably only raise £50-80m tops.Well, for a start you can't do any better than Cunha and Mbeumo given our situation. This is to directly address our most pressing issues, creativity and scoring goals. They are PL proven and played the same system as Amorim's. Much less risks there.
After this, seems like a ST is the priority and most likely Gyokeres who is also very familiar with the style of play. Again less risks. We will have some sales to fund this.
CM is not too urgent to address this window. Maybe can be delayed to next year during 2nd phase of rebuild. Ugarte, Casemeiro, Bruno, Mainoo, Collyermore all can do the job focusing on CM and leave the attack to the new front 3. But I think GK is a must to upgrade and hope we can do it.
It's looking likely that our sales will be enough to cover the ST, CM and GK upgrade. Finger crossed.
So far Wilcox is doing well. Hope it will become better by end of the window.
Disagree unless Collyer has an amazing breakout season. These lot might be fine in a 4-3-3. Any combination of just two of them will get run through constantly week after week.CM is not too urgent to address this window. Ugarte, Casemeiro, Bruno, Mainoo, Collyermore all can do the job focusing on CM
What? Am I going crazy? I think you have given me no examples at all. Is there a post I missed? You gave examples of Brighton, Liverpool, Arsenal as clubs that use a DoF at all, but that’s not the question I asked. Did any of them aquire an already well known, succesfull DoF to achieve their success? Brighton got Ashworth when he was fairly unknown in terms of DoF qualifications, Edwards was not a renknowned DoF at all when he came to Liverpool, Arsenal faved an upturn with Edu as SD, what was his qualifications as SD when they hired him? These are examples of the opposite of my question - they are top clubs hiring unestablished DoF/SD, with success. My question was are there examples og established Dof/SDs hired by top clubs who then go on to be a success. I think you, nor anyone, have given me any examples of that, unless I’m blind?I gave you tons of examples in the next post. In fact, most clubs are using that approach now and it is exactly what Jimmy promised in his interviews.
Thats well and good but if the club knew we'll in advance that City were interested and well in position to do a deal then you can't blame them for deciding not to waste time on futile pursuit. They also wanted Delap but couldn't do anything as the player chose to go elsewhere.Well personally I think going for Cherki at £30-40m and spending the rest of the budget on CF, CM and GK would’ve been far more sensible considering that our sales will probably only raise £50-80m tops.
But that’s football and opinion. Time will tell.
Edwards was pretty well known. Arsenal have gone for Berta now. Inter went for the one eyed wonder. There is Real where the signings are made independent of the manager. RB group have used Rangnick. We have already discussed City and PSG. There are plenty of examples.What? Am I going crazy? I think you have given me no examples at all. Is there a post I missed? You gave examples of Brighton, Liverpool, Arsenal as clubs that use a DoF at all, but that’s not the question I asked. Did any of them aquire an already well known, succesfull DoF to achieve their success? Brighton got Ashworth when he was fairly unknown in terms of DoF qualifications, Edwards was not a renknowned DoF at all when he came to Liverpool, Arsenal faved an upturn with Edu as SD, what was his qualifications as SD when they hired him? These are examples of the opposite of my question - they are top clubs hiring unestablished DoF/SD, with success. My question was are there examples og established Dof/SDs hired by top clubs who then go on to be a success. I think you, nor anyone, have given me any examples of that, unless I’m blind?
Re Cherki I think the links were just the usual smoke around a player facing us in a European knockout tie. We have obviously taken the “Prem proven” schtick hook, line and sinker this summer. Which is no surprise as I imagine Wilcox’s bunghole is clinched tighter than a porthole cover in his new position. The problem is that strategy is costing us a premium which is not optimal in such a comprehensive rebuild. Which as you rightly say isn’t looking as if it will be very comprehensive at the moment.Thats well and good but if the club knew we'll in advance that City were interested and well in position to do a deal then you can't blame them for deciding not to waste time on futile pursuit. They also wanted Delap but couldn't do anything as the player chose to go elsewhere.
I am as concerned as you are that if our rebuild is not comprehensive enough to add physicality and technique in defense and midfield, our issues will persist. We also badly need a striker and goalkeeper so those three are non negotiable. If we fail to bag a couple of sales and subsequently go into the season without a new DM, GK or striker the we could be in trouble.
For all the goals and potential, I think going in hard for Mbuemo when one of our better players plays last season plays in his position is not the best allocation of resources given where we are. I guess they are banking on Ugarte settling in or Collyer making a more significant contribution - these are the only two midfielders who can partner Bruno in midfield in the PL, which (Bruno in midfield) is another questionable decision in itself.
