Jason Wilcox - Director of Football

[MCDC]

Murtough worked for Everton, Fulham and Coventry, and is responsible for Alvaro Fernandes, Garnacho and Amad, so I would say at this point Wilcox has a long way to go to even match that, because those three will be top players in the world in the next few years.

Not sure anyone can call Heaven or Obi successes at this point, we all hope they will be, but Heaven played like three games and United fans decided in their minds that those three performances will make him the best left sided CB in the game, maybe lets wait and see. Obi is just a kid, and again wait and see, don't see much there yet to be honest, but I won't judge him so far, and no one should be holding him up as a success either.

Jason Wilcox played lower league football mostly, not sure how that makes him an expert or highly connected. So far most of his signings look like they are struggling to be successful, and he was part of a team that gave Ten Hag and extension, bought him players and then sacked him. There is nothing so far to suggest he has any idea what he is doing.

This is just a cheap internal hire because it would be more difficult and more expensive to go out there and get someone with some pedigree in the game. Think back about 15 months, if anyone suggested Jason Wilcox of Southhampton should be our DOF they would have been laughed out of the place, at least after people googled him and find out who he was. Now has he done anything in the time since to raise his stock in the game?

Amad has played about a season over 2 years, I rate him but is made of glass so far, Garnacho signs of the times overrated has moments of brilliance but also has horrendous decision making, his attitude does not match his talent, Alvaro deemed not good enough by ETH, but proved him wrong fair play.

Heaven cost 1m and has looked like a great understudy at LCB, he is already a success by his transfer fee alone, let alone the potential ceiling he has exhibited.

Jason Wilcox won the PL with Blackburn, he also spent time at Leeds, Leicester and Blackpool not exactly lower league mostly, he then spent 6 years as Citys Academy Director, where they bought the best talent and will have spent large periods contacting other academy leads, building a network.

As they decided to keep ETH, he had 1 year on his deal, they had to trigger the 1 year extension otherwise why would the players work for him, we know that was a poor decision, but the leadership group had not been in the job long enough or deemed other managers good enough, or those managers wanted to come, by all accounts it was Ashworth who pushed to give ETH more time by the reports with Wilcox wanting him sacked and to change tactics for the FA cup final.

De ligt & Mazrouai have been good signings, Ugarte has been hit and miss but also had no pre season from ourselves or PSG so the jury is out, Zirkzee fit a profile has been better since he was hooked, Yoro one of the best young CBs and has shown why we bought him as the season progressed.

You were aware that ETH still had his Veto, so his influence was still going to take shape, with the leadership team joining during the summer leaving little preparation together.

So next time you go for a promotion at work just remember, the best candidates are always external as you are just a cheap internal hire, to save on the bottom line.

Just because you do not know someone's credentials does not mean they are crap at there job, maybe they are doing a really good job in the background without the media parading there name.

Any club that signs youth players not on the basis of the person they've put in charge of recruitment is a badly run club.

The reports were also saying that Wilcox went ahead with the Ugarte signing on his own whims when it was very clear that the player was limited as far as progressing the ball. Signing players like Obi or Heaven isn't anything special either because they were well known young players at youth level.

Vivell is someone who has worked in a recruitment capacity before in a major European league and from what we know he predominantly targeted players for a very vertical way of playing the game, which was a absolute rule at the RedBull clubs. So I don't believe I can even blame him for Ugarte.

How do you know they didn't discuss it? Are you not allowed to use your contacts and work with people?

Ugarte was signed to be a destroyer, has shown a functional technical ability at times, also having no pre season clearly affected him, as he was exhausted by the hour mark, come back on this by Jan, I have a feeling he will play the covering role next to Bruno and excel.

Signing two of the promising youngsters not special, funny if we had missed out would be a stick to beat him, all these contacts and doesn't use them etc etc

The verticality of the Redbull group might not be the same as we are trying to play, we will only know this season when he has recruited in the attack, to see how it functions.

Blame for Ugarte give it a rest, 2 rants about 1 player, go throw darts at his picture or something as it is getting boring.

 

[Grande]

Edwards was pretty well known. Arsenal have gone for Berta now. Inter went for the one eyed wonder. There is Real where the signings are made independent of the manager. RB group have used Rangnick. We have already discussed City and PSG. There are plenty of examples.

We were burned before by going for a novice in Murtough. We are trying to build a new structure and were promised "best in class" So, why are you surprised that people are questioning whether Wilcox is really suitable for the job or scoffing "give me examples of established ones at other clubs"?

You think Wilcox is "best in class"? Why didn't they go for him straight before the whole Ashworth nonsense?

It would be nice if you could take things a bit more on face value. I haven’t said anything about Wilcox to you, at all. I asked a simple question, at leas I thought it was simple. It looks to me that you misundestood and still doesn’t understand the question.

Was Edwards an example of someone hired on the basis of having succesfull DoF experience when he went on to do a good job at Liverpool between 2016-2022? No, he came to Liverpool in 2011 on the back of a job as analyst for Spurs, not SD/DoF. Nothing spectacularily successful, and pretty much nobody even knew about him. Liverpool hired him as Sporting Director in 2016 as a promotion from within, after working with recruitment analysis. He was not a ‘renknowned Sporting Director’ at this point.

Is Berta an example of a ‘reknowned SD/DoF hired at a top club and then going on to have success’? No. He came to Arsenal in March this year, and nobody will make a judgement of wether he has been a success at Arsenal after two months in the job, that goes without saying.

Where Ralf Rangnick a renowned SD/DoF when Red Bull hired him? No, he had been a coach for five years at Hoffenheim and two weeks at Schalke. Never been DoF or SD or anything similar.

When all your examples are irrelevant to the question I asked, it leads me to conclude that you didn’t understand the question.

I have a suspicion that it is not really normal for clubs to hire DoF/SD’s on the basis of them having to have had success in a similar role before, that is true, but I’m also very open to being wrong in that intuition. I don’t follow or remember different clubs that closely. I imediately had a sense of your examples being way off the question, but I did have to google them now to see if I had missed something.

But as no one else seems to know any examples of hiring a successfull DoF/SD actually leading to success at a new club, I’m starting to think that my first intuition was right, and that it really isn’t a very normal way to achieve success.

 

[The Hilton]

I only cited PSG as they were a recent example where we saw fruits of careful planning work out. It was also simply not about them winning the CL but the formation a team that is young and talented enough to last. They moved on from their Galactico approach and it gave way to careful planning.

"Give me five examples" - I don't respond to the ask for tests. Football clubs have been moving in this direction for a while and it's not hard to find examples of clubs that are working on the said system. Clubs have modernized and don't solely depend on scouting and managerial input to make signings and build teams. We are promised a modern system of working with the "best in class" employed to see it come to fruition. However, so far we have seen them bungle at every step. Now, we are told that someone with limited experience in the role is being promoted and asked to handle the duties. Which warrants a healthy amount of skepticism.

Yeah the examples request was more of a demand, that's fair enough.

You're exaggerating the negatives about our setup though, they definitely haven't bungled at every step. Last summer the signings were decent, and for reasonable prices too, it was a noticeable improvement over previous transfer windows. It also isn't just Wilcox who's identifying targets, we know he's got the likes of Vivell, who has loads of experience, working with him.

Scepticism is fine, but you've gotta be a bit more fair in your analysis of the new regime, as it comes across as overly, and unfairly, negative.

 

[romufc]

I only cited PSG as they were a recent example where we saw fruits of careful planning work out. It was also simply not about them winning the CL but the formation a team that is young and talented enough to last. They moved on from their Galactico approach and it gave way to careful planning.

"Give me five examples" - I don't respond to the ask for tests. Football clubs have been moving in this direction for a while and it's not hard to find examples of clubs that are working on the said system. Clubs have modernized and don't solely depend on scouting and managerial input to make signings and build teams. We are promised a modern system of working with the "best in class" employed to see it come to fruition. However, so far we have seen them bungle at every step. Now, we are told that someone with limited experience in the role is being promoted and asked to handle the duties. Which warrants a healthy amount of skepticism.

The problem I have with these arguments and fans like you is, all you see is the finished article, then come here with "look at PSG, why cant we do that"

Igroring the process completely, did PSG become this team within 1 year of being taken over?

We were promised a modern set up, which is what we are getting... ofcourse you expect everything to be done overnight, just like everyone losing their shit on X.

Do you know PSG didn't decide we need to change and it happened overnight? This squad they are building has been for years, not months.

Yet fans like you expect things to change in months at United.

 

[Adnan]

How do you know they didn't discuss it? Are you not allowed to use your contacts and work with people?

Ugarte was signed to be a destroyer, has shown a functional technical ability at times, also having no pre season clearly affected him, as he was exhausted by the hour mark, come back on this by Jan, I have a feeling he will play the covering role next to Bruno and excel.

Signing two of the promising youngsters not special, funny if we had missed out would be a stick to beat him, all these contacts and doesn't use them etc etc

The verticality of the Redbull group might not be the same as we are trying to play, we will only know this season when he has recruited in the attack, to see how it functions.

Blame for Ugarte give it a rest, 2 rants about 1 player, go throw darts at his picture or something as it is getting boboring.

I never said they didn't discuss signing younger players. Of course you have a discussion regarding the players you sign but the discussion takes place between the person who is directly in charge of recruitment and the person who is overseeing the football structure, whether that be the academy director or the director of football who oversees the entire football structure. But the person who is in charge of making the final call regarding the players that are to make the shortlist, is the head of recruitment because that is his remit. He's the specialist when it comes to leading a team of scouts and it's his job to identify the players to sign. And when he (head of recruitment) completes the shortlist of the players that have been selected for future transfers, then the academy director or the director of football engage in discussion which is normal.

In my opinion, you just do not sign a destroyer in midfield if your aim at the club is to implement a more expansive brand of football. Liverpool haven't done it since Klopp and neither have Arsenal or City. All the players they have signed in deeper areas of the pitch are players who have the capability to pass the ball vertically between the lines. Wiljnaldum and Henderson at Liverpool might not have been the best midfielders in the world, but their contributions with and without the ball enabled Jurgen Klopp to implement a system of play which sacrificed defensive stability for goals in a higher line. No well run club with aspirations of challenging for major honours with a view to implementing a more proactive attacking approach to the game buys a pure destroyer. You have to have the ability to vertically pass the ball at a good to high level at the very least or else you carry on being a more reactive team.

I hope the youngsters turn out to be special but there's still a long way to go in that regard. But my point wasn't about Obi and Heaven being special but rather it was well known amongst youth circles about their abilities and their potential availability from Arsenal. And Heaven just recently mentioned in a interview that one of the reasons he joined the club was due to our history of giving youth a chance.

Every club that aims to play a more expansive brand of football, has to by default be more vertical in their game which then reflects the players they sign. The RedBull clubs took that approach to the extreme where verticality in possesion was the rule. But you don't have to be that extreme in your approach and if we look at Man City under Guardiola they were also a team who looked to play forward but didn't take the extreme approach of the RedBull clubs which again reflected on their recruitment which was centred around players in midfield who had the ability to operate in confined spaces but also had the ability to thread the lines. So every team that looks to play attacking football, recruits players who can break lines vertically, especially in midfield and defense.

And I'm not sure what you're going on about in your last paragraph. I was asked a question about Ugarte, and I gave my opinion on the player who I have said from the very start was a limited player and wouldn't move the needle as far as improving us as a team.

 

[UTD_Since_1978]

I hope this ex Blackburn player can do a good job for UTD.

 

[horsechoker]

I hope this ex Blackburn player can do a good job for UTD.

There was a man who used to play for Blackburn

Not many gave him a chance, but he worked hard every day and eventually became the best player in the league.

That man's name? Phil Jones

 

[Insanity]

Yeah the examples request was more of a demand, that's fair enough.

You're exaggerating the negatives about our setup though, they definitely haven't bungled at every step. Last summer the signings were decent, and for reasonable prices too, it was a noticeable improvement over previous transfer windows. It also isn't just Wilcox who's identifying targets, we know he's got the likes of Vivell, who has loads of experience, working with him.

Scepticism is fine, but you've gotta be a bit more fair in your analysis of the new regime, as it comes across as overly, and unfairly, negative.

I think they have taken a lot of missteps. The keeping of ETH, taking the option and then firing him a few games in. The whole wait for Ashworth, paying money to Newcastle to get him and then letting him go so soon. I am not that hot on the signings so far either - besides Yoro and Maz (as a squad player) none of them are of the required level. I would expect a better outcome from a 200m+ spend on transfer plus the additional wages. We paid good money to sign six players, that's more than half a XI. The verdict on Amo is still very much pending. So far his appointment has been disappointment.

Only thing for me is that I still like Amo and want him to do well. He is the only Post Fergie manager that I haven't actively disliked inspite of the results. Let us see if they can combine to still salvage it. I am not positive, but hope springs eternal.

 

[Pickle85]

I think they have taken a lot of missteps. The keeping of ETH, taking the option and then firing him a few games in. The whole wait for Ashworth, paying money to Newcastle to get him and then letting him go so soon. I am not that hot on the signings so far either - besides Yoro and Maz (as a squad player) none of them are of the required level. I would expect a better outcome from a 200m+ spend on transfer plus the additional wages. We paid good money to sign six players, that's more than half a XI. The verdict on Amo is still very much pending. So far his appointment has been disappointment.

Only thing for me is that I still like Amo and want him to do well. He is the only Post Fergie manager that I haven't actively disliked inspite of the results. Let us see if they can combine to still salvage it. I am not positive, but hope springs eternal.

De Ligt and Heaven? I think they've had more hits than misses so far.

 

[UTD_Since_1978]

There was a man who used to play for Blackburn

Not many gave him a chance, but he worked hard every day and eventually became the best player in the league.

That's man's name? Phil Jones

As Sir Alex labeled him, "The new Duncan Edwards"

 

[MCDC]

I never said they didn't discuss signing younger players. Of course you have a discussion regarding the players you sign but the discussion takes place between the person who is directly in charge of recruitment and the person who is overseeing the football structure, whether that be the academy director or the director of football who oversees the entire football structure. But the person who is in charge of making the final call regarding the players that are to make the shortlist, is the head of recruitment because that is his remit. He's the specialist when it comes to leading a team of scouts and it's his job to identify the players to sign. And when he (head of recruitment) completes the shortlist of the players that have been selected for future transfers, then the academy director or the director of football engage in discussion which is normal.

In my opinion, you just do not sign a destroyer in midfield if your aim at the club is to implement a more expansive brand of football. Liverpool haven't done it since Klopp and neither have Arsenal or City. All the players they have signed in deeper areas of the pitch are players who have the capability to pass the ball vertically between the lines. Wiljnaldum and Henderson at Liverpool might not have been the best midfielders in the world, but their contributions with and without the ball enabled Jurgen Klopp to implement a system of play which sacrificed defensive stability for goals in a higher line. No well run club with aspirations of challenging for major honours with a view to implementing a more proactive attacking approach to the game buys a pure destroyer. You have to have the ability to vertically pass the ball at a good to high level at the very least or else you carry on being a more reactive team.

I hope the youngsters turn out to be special but there's still a long way to go in that regard. But my point wasn't about Obi and Heaven being special but rather it was well known amongst youth circles about their abilities and their potential availability from Arsenal. And Heaven just recently mentioned in a interview that one of the reasons he joined the club was due to our history of giving youth a chance.

Every club that aims to play a more expansive brand of football, has to by default be more vertical in their game which then reflects the players they sign. The RedBull clubs took that approach to the extreme where verticality in possesion was the rule. But you don't have to be that extreme in your approach and if we look at Man City under Guardiola they were also a team who looked to play forward but didn't take the extreme approach of the RedBull clubs which again reflected on their recruitment which was centred around players in midfield who had the ability to operate in confined spaces but also had the ability to thread the lines. So every team that looks to play attacking football, recruits players who can break lines vertically, especially in midfield and defense.

And I'm not sure what you're going on about in your last paragraph. I was asked a question about Ugarte, and I gave my opinion on the player who I have said from the very start was a limited player and wouldn't move the needle as far as improving us as a team.

We can argue about how United signed these kids all day and who’s job it was.

Maybe Wilcox was credited due to incorporating them in the first team, than sticking them straight in the academy, Obi has played both senior and academy football, just because people are aware of players doesn’t mean they can sign them.

We were not a possession team under ETH, we were a transition team that lacked intensity and ability to break up play, which was why Wilcox targeted him as this is what he excels at, you describe him like he cannot pass the ball, just because he is not Carrick or Scholes doesn’t mean he can’t do something, he keeps it simple through recycling of play.

Why would Liverpool recruit a possession based player for Klopp? He played transition football, they signed Thiago and that failed because he didn’t suit what he wanted from midfield.

Slott is a possession manager so obviously they will recruit players for that and his midfield was different to Klopps, using Gravenberch as a dictator and breaker of play, whereas Klopp utilized him as a box to box midfielder.

Pep was a possession manager, also he has evolved into a slightly more transition focused team, during his time here as the ability to win transition and move up the field quickly is vital.

I said you banging on about Ugarte all the time is boring, lads been here a season, see what happens this season with a pre season.

 

[meninred]

I think that having too many "directors" will only create friction, rivalry, and power struggles. So the departure of Dan Ashworth and David Brailsford to Ineos hopefully, should benefit the team. I remember during the Ferguson/Wenger era, they were both the coach and director themselves and would never allow a sporting director. Only a CEO. Ferguson/Gill and Wenger /Dein. It worked at that time although now is a different era most clubs have a CEO and sporting director -One for the sports and the other mostly the business side. Usually, a team succeeds if a good bond is created between the CEO / sporting director and the coach. That is why I think for example Tottenham would fail. Brailsford had huge success in bicycle but it is still a sport that means he can give input. A best seller book called Atomic Habits describes the achievement of Brailsford. Shortly Ratcliff should be able to create a management structure that benefits all. Let us hope the Berrada and Wilcox team works .As a fan maybe we care less as this is behind the screen issue. Fans normally don’t much about the management or business but the footballing side - the entertainment and victory it brings.

 

[The Hilton]

I think they have taken a lot of missteps. The keeping of ETH, taking the option and then firing him a few games in. The whole wait for Ashworth, paying money to Newcastle to get him and then letting him go so soon. I am not that hot on the signings so far either - besides Yoro and Maz (as a squad player) none of them are of the required level. I would expect a better outcome from a 200m+ spend on transfer plus the additional wages. We paid good money to sign six players, that's more than half a XI. The verdict on Amo is still very much pending. So far his appointment has been disappointment.

Only thing for me is that I still like Amo and want him to do well. He is the only Post Fergie manager that I haven't actively disliked inspite of the results. Let us see if they can combine to still salvage it. I am not positive, but hope springs eternal.

Some of the missteps you quote were from before the new footballing regime existed. It was Ratcliffe and Brailsford who led the review that ended up with us keeping Ten Hag, they also wofent after Ashworth without waiting to see if he would fit. The new football regime are the ones who course corrected, so that should be in their favour.

As for signings, we'll wait and see, I think you're being harsh on De Ligt for example. Our signings this summer look great so far too. There will be bad signings, that's inevitable no matter how good the regime is, but for me the long term signs look much more promising than they have done for a while.

 

[Sandikan]

I hope this ex Blackburn player can do a good job for UTD.

Agreed.
We should have a rule that only one club players who came through the United system should be considered for any of our management roles.

 

[Cassidy]

Agreed.
We should have a rule that only one club players who came through the United system should be considered for any of our management roles.

Hope you are joking

 

[Sandikan]

Hope you are joking

Come on son, of course

As who would that limit us to? G Nev, Scholesy and Giggsy, and maybe a handful of others?

 

[Cassidy]

Come on son, of course

As who would that limit us to? G Nev, Scholesy and Giggsy, and maybe a handful of others?

Hahaha good. You never know around here to be honest

 

[Sandikan]

Hahaha good. You never know around here to be honest

That is definitely true, some of the bad takes!
Although some will "pretend" they were joking after, which needs to be watched too.

 

[Adnan]

We can argue about how United signed these kids all day and who’s job it was.

Maybe Wilcox was credited due to incorporating them in the first team, than sticking them straight in the academy, Obi has played both senior and academy football, just because people are aware of players doesn’t mean they can sign them.

We were not a possession team under ETH, we were a transition team that lacked intensity and ability to break up play, which was why Wilcox targeted him as this is what he excels at, you describe him like he cannot pass the ball, just because he is not Carrick or Scholes doesn’t mean he can’t do something, he keeps it simple through recycling of play.

Why would Liverpool recruit a possession based player for Klopp? He played transition football, they signed Thiago and that failed because he didn’t suit what he wanted from midfield.

Slott is a possession manager so obviously they will recruit players for that and his midfield was different to Klopps, using Gravenberch as a dictator and breaker of play, whereas Klopp utilized him as a box to box midfielder.

Pep was a possession manager, also he has evolved into a slightly more transition focused team, during his time here as the ability to win transition and move up the field quickly is vital.

I said you banging on about Ugarte all the time is boring, lads been here a season, see what happens this season with a pre season.

We shouldn't need to argue about who identifies the players to sign because it's well known we have heads of scouting both at youth and first team level who are tasked with running the rule over which players are to be signed. That's normal at most well run clubs and it creates a well aligned football structure.

Man Utd is a huge club so signing a player like Chido Obi isn't anything special because as well as the allure and pull of the club the player was said to be a Man Utd fan growing up. Signing top talents at youth level should be the norm for Man Utd because of the appeal of the club and it's history.

Again you're missing the point completely and your reference to ten Hag and the transition game state is totally wrong. This might come as a surprise to you, but even in a setup where you look to transition quickly, you have to have a high level of vertical capability in the first two lines in-possession with a view to implementing a higher line and thus squeezing the pitch so the pressing from the front can be more effective. So again it was silly to sign a limited midfielder who didn't have the ability to thread the lines where even a quick transitional style demanded something more especially in-possession as far as making the quick transition more effective. And it's not about Scholes or Carrick but Ugarte isn't even good enough to contribute on the level of players like Henderson and Wijnaldum who were far better on the ball as far as threading the lines vertically.

Liverpool recruited players for Klopp who aligned with his football vision. And that vision was to transition quickly hence targeting players who can thread the lines vertically, win duels in larger space out of possession in a higher line and play the game in the opponent's half with the press from the front being a feature out of possession. Klopp and Liverpool just would not sign a player like Ugarte imo because he was too limited as far as aiding the development of a more proactive attacking approach which demanded each player in the first two lines to progress the ball vertically. And as far as the signing of Thiago is concerned, Klopp was trying to enable a little more positional play in his tactics due to slowing the game down a bit and not taxing his players too much with the heavy metal football approach where the press, counter press and large space defending in a higher line was physically demanding over the course of the season. I've spoken about this before on the forum.

There's no such thing as a possession manager. This is a term coined by the media but denied by coaches like Guardiola. Guardiola has specifically said that his teams play in- possession with a specific purpose and that purpose is to go from A to B vertically with efficiency and effectiveness. Guardiola was big on positional play which is something he inherited from the Dutch and developed further and modernised the concept for the modern day. City have been signing players that fit into Guardiola's vision and when it comes to midfield, they've been signing players who can operate in small spaces and also vertically progress the ball. What Guardiola or even Klopp want from their players automatically rules out signing a player like Ugarte due to his limitations in-possession.

Arne Slot I've written posts on him whilst he was coaching in the Dutch Eredivisie. He of course wants to implement positional play but demands verticality from the first two lines and again a limited midfielder without those qualities doesn't make the cut.

Your saying I'm banging on about Ugarte all the time, when I really haven't been very active at all on this forum this year.

 

[Bastian]

@Adnan

What do you make of Amorim's desire to keep Maguire then? I agree with everything Paul Parker has to say on the matter. He takes 5-6 touches, he massively slows down our play, he never threads a ball through (I recognise he is great in the air and he actually has a good diagonal pass in him). I still think we are that central defender short who can push things, or a midfielder who can actually collect the ball and get things ticking.

I like him. But I don't think he fits.

 

[Adnan]

@Adnan

What do you make of Amorim's desire to keep Maguire then? I agree with everything Paul Parker has to say on the matter. He takes 5-6 touches, he massively slows down our play, he never threads a ball through (I recognise he is great in the air and he actually has a good diagonal pass in him). I still think we are that central defender short who can push things, or a midfielder who can actually collect the ball and get things ticking.

I like him. But I don't think he fits.

I think we've got to a stage with Maguire now that it would be beneficial to have him as a rotation option. And like you've mentioned, he does provide some attributes that can be of use to us over the course of the season and I feel he takes one too many touches due to the lack of support from midfield where we don't really have high level first receivers who can take the ball and evade the press.

I think the club should target a new CB, someone who can be utilised as the CCB in the centre of the backline. So keeping Maguire and also signing a CB with pace, power and the ability to vertically progress the ball should be on the agenda imo. It doesn't look like Dean Huijsen (Bournemouth) is a option, so I would personally hope they target Ousmane Diomande from SCP, who imo could well prove to be the best signing we can make from SCP with a mid to long-term mindset. Diomande is also a player with the profile that Liverpool seem to constantly target.

 

[Bastian]

I think we've got to a stage with Maguire now that it would be beneficial to have him as a rotation option. And like you've mentioned, he does provide some attributes that can be of use to us over the course of the season and I feel he takes one too many touches due to the lack of support from midfield where we don't really have high level first receivers who can take the ball and evade the press.

I think the club should target a new CB, someone who can be utilised as the CCB in the centre of the backline. So keeping Maguire and also signing a CB with pace, power and the ability to vertically progress the ball should be on the agenda imo. It doesn't look like Dean Huijsen (Bournemouth) is a option, so I would personally hope they target Ousmane Diomande from SCP, who imo could well prove to be the best signing we can make from SCP with a mid to long-term mindset. Diomande is also a player with the profile that Liverpool seem to constantly target.

Palace are actually looking to sign Diomande, and it looks like we're not going to sign any centre back this summer, but agreed on the CCB front. I do think Maguire takes too many touches for no other reason than his own short comings. De Ligt progresses the ball much faster in the same role, and de Ligt is not recognised as a technical centre back.

At best, and it's not really a bad option, I'd guess we might sign another very young centre back of high promise for a decent price who could theoretically play in a back three with Yoro and Heaven.

 

[Cassidy]

I think we've got to a stage with Maguire now that it would be beneficial to have him as a rotation option. And like you've mentioned, he does provide some attributes that can be of use to us over the course of the season and I feel he takes one too many touches due to the lack of support from midfield where we don't really have high level first receivers who can take the ball and evade the press.

I think the club should target a new CB, someone who can be utilised as the CCB in the centre of the backline. So keeping Maguire and also signing a CB with pace, power and the ability to vertically progress the ball should be on the agenda imo. It doesn't look like Dean Huijsen (Bournemouth) is a option, so I would personally hope they target Ousmane Diomande from SCP, who imo could well prove to be the best signing we can make from SCP with a mid to long-term mindset. Diomande is also a player with the profile that Liverpool seem to constantly target.

This season with one game a week probably the best time to offload Maguire

 

[Andycoleno9]

Murtough probably was worst DoF ever so this guy can only do better.
Huge summer in front of him. Especially in selling players. That is where he can really impress all of us.

Although, i am not impressed so far. Dorgu and Maguire extension were not good business.

 

[diarm]

This season with one game a week probably the best time to offload Maguire

It's also undoubtably the highest his stock has been at any time since he joined. It's exactly the right time to sell and bring in someone like Diomande as @Adnan suggests, but I fear we'll be looking back at it in November/December as an opportunity missed.

 

[Adnan]

Palace are actually looking to sign Diomande, and it looks like we're not going to sign any centre back this summer, but agreed on the CCB front. I do think Maguire takes too many touches for no other reason than his own short comings. De Ligt progresses the ball much faster in the same role, and de Ligt is not recognised as a technical centre back.

At best, and it's not really a bad option, I'd guess we might sign another very young centre back of high promise for a decent price who could theoretically play in a back three with Yoro and Heaven.

I think keeping Maguire around with a number of young CBs on the books would actually be a good thing. Maguire provides strong box defending capabilities and some of the attributes that he does have can come in very hand over the course of the season. Things like when the team is pinned back and is holding on to a lead with the opposition aerially bombarding the box, someone like Maguire would actually be a good option to have in that scenario for any manager, especially when trying to reconstruct the team.

 

[Bastian]

I think keeping Maguire around with a number of young CBs on the books would actually be a good thing. Maguire provides strong box defending capabilities and some of the attributes that he does have can come in very hand over the course of the season. Things like when the team is pinned back and is holding on to a lead with the opposition aerially bombarding the box, someone like Maguire would actually be a good option to have in that scenario for any manager, especially when trying to reconstruct the team.

Aye, he does have good uses. I suspect we won't sign any defender, not even at RWB or LWB. I imagine we close the Mbeumo deal, get in a CM (that hopefully transforms our play), a striker and a GK to put Onana either on the bench or happy to seek first team opportunities elsewhere before the window closes.

So I hope de Ligt will stay fit and can play that CCB role flanked by Yoro and Heaven. I still think it's a good thing in the long-term not to have qualified for European football. If the hierarchy is competent enough, they'll trim the squad properly this summer and this will be the de facto start of Amorim's era at United. Both Yoro and Heaven can defend vast spaces, de Ligt is a fighter and they will learn from him as well as Maguire, but as I said before, I think he is much better for the tempo of our play even though neither of them is ideal.

Hopefully the key acquisition for the team collective this summer will be in centre midfield, someone who can help dictate the tempo in a controlled manner.

 

[Adnan]

Aye, he does have good uses. I suspect we won't sign any defender, not even at RWB or LWB. I imagine we close the Mbeumo deal, get in a CM (that hopefully transforms our play), a striker and a GK to put Onana either on the bench or happy to seek first team opportunities elsewhere before the window closes.

So I hope de Ligt will stay fit and can play that CCB role flanked by Yoro and Heaven. I still think it's a good thing in the long-term not to have qualified for European football. If the hierarchy is competent enough, they'll trim the squad properly this summer and this will be the de facto start of Amorim's era at United. Both Yoro and Heaven can defend vast spaces, de Ligt is a fighter and they will learn from him as well as Maguire, but as I said before, I think he is much better for the tempo of our play even though neither of them is ideal.

Hopefully the key acquisition for the team collective this summer will be in centre midfield, someone who can help dictate the tempo in a controlled manner.

Agreed with what you're saying mate. Let's hope we see a recruitment plan centred on a clear and defined way of playing the game.

 

[Varun1]

I think keeping Maguire around with a number of young CBs on the books would actually be a good thing. Maguire provides strong box defending capabilities and some of the attributes that he does have can come in very hand over the course of the season. Things like when the team is pinned back and is holding on to a lead with the opposition aerially bombarding the box, someone like Maguire would actually be a good option to have in that scenario for any manager, especially when trying to reconstruct the team.

Am not a fan and wanted him out for a long time, but I don't think we'll sell this season. TBH, I'd sell Martinez first and just extend Harry for another year if possible, although doubt he would accept.

I hope we give Fredericson or another young CB more minutes in the 1st team, with Yoro, Heaven and MDL cememting the 1st team spots.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Murtough probably was worst DoF ever so this guy can only do better.
Huge summer in front of him. Especially in selling players. That is where he can really impress all of us.

Although, i am not impressed so far. Dorgu and Maguire extension were not good business.

Absolutely the right decision to extend Maguire.

Despite all his supposed short comings, no one has performed better than him.

He has limitations, and happy to replace him with someone better - but they haven’t come along yet!

It’s good the Lindelof has gone, a good time for Evans to retire, and hopefully Martinez gets fit / so we can sell him ASAP. He’s not good enough, and has no pace, no height, no strength. Just an awful CB.

With no European football we can probably get away without buying a CB - but if a good player comes up (in the £20-30m bracket) we should be in for them this summer, rather than be desperate to buy a player the year after.

 

[sugar_kane]

Murtough worked for Everton, Fulham and Coventry, and is responsible for Alvaro Fernandes, Garnacho and Amad, so I would say at this point Wilcox has a long way to go to even match that, because those three will be top players in the world in the next few years.

Not sure anyone can call Heaven or Obi successes at this point, we all hope they will be, but Heaven played like three games and United fans decided in their minds that those three performances will make him the best left sided CB in the game, maybe lets wait and see. Obi is just a kid, and again wait and see, don't see much there yet to be honest, but I won't judge him so far, and no one should be holding him up as a success either.

Jason Wilcox played lower league football mostly, not sure how that makes him an expert or highly connected. So far most of his signings look like they are struggling to be successful, and he was part of a team that gave Ten Hag and extension, bought him players and then sacked him. There is nothing so far to suggest he has any idea what he is doing.

This is just a cheap internal hire because it would be more difficult and more expensive to go out there and get someone with some pedigree in the game. Think back about 15 months, if anyone suggested Jason Wilcox of Southhampton should be our DOF they would have been laughed out of the place, at least after people googled him and find out who he was. Now has he done anything in the time since to raise his stock in the game?

I don't think Murtough had anything to do with the Amad signing did he? Woodward was in charge then.

We signed Amad in January 2021 and Murtough came into the DoF role in March 2021.

 

[Insanity]

Some of the missteps you quote were from before the new footballing regime existed. It was Ratcliffe and Brailsford who led the review that ended up with us keeping Ten Hag, they also wofent after Ashworth without waiting to see if he would fit. The new football regime are the ones who course corrected, so that should be in their favour.

As for signings, we'll wait and see, I think you're being harsh on De Ligt for example. Our signings this summer look great so far too. There will be bad signings, that's inevitable no matter how good the regime is, but for me the long term signs look much more promising than they have done for a while.

Wilcox was there from the beginning and the point of getting Ashworth was to develop the new football structure.

De Ligt is a decent buy but for the total outlay (Fee+Wages) we should have gone for better. He has serious flaws in his game with his lack of pace and agility which cannot be overcome. I don't see him part of a first XI that is challenging for stuff. He is the new Harry Maguire without 'Arry's half decent ability on the ball. What he has got on 'Arry is a little more aggression, but I don't think that'd be enough. My hope is that we'll sign more Yoro's then de Ligt's moving forward. I want technically superior players with huge potential even if it takes time for them to fully develop.

 

[noelyman]

It’s good the Lindelof has gone, a good time for Evans to retire, and hopefully Martinez gets fit / so we can sell him ASAP. He’s not good enough, and has no pace, no height, no strength. Just an awful CB.

This is well harsh and ignores the numerous sterling displays he put in, in a United shirt. Yes he has had a worrying injury record. But as for the rest of it. Yes he's short (unless he starts playing with platform boots he can't do much about this). But he's no slower than Maguire, or De Ligt. He's combative, uses his strength well and is definitely good enough for a role in the squad if he stays fit, which admittedly is a big IF.

 

[steeeb]

This is well harsh and ignores the numerous sterling displays he put in, in a United shirt. Yes he has had a worrying injury record. But as for the rest of it. Yes he's short (unless he starts playing with platform boots he can't do much about this). But he's no slower than Maguire, or De Ligt. He's combative, uses his strength well and is definitely good enough for a role in the squad if he stays fit, which admittedly is a big IF.

I agree, he looks better under Amorim he progresses the ball well and plays some good creative passes - we'll appreciate this with Cunha and Mbeumo and hopefully a decent striker.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

This is well harsh and ignores the numerous sterling displays he put in, in a United shirt. Yes he has had a worrying injury record. But as for the rest of it. Yes he's short (unless he starts playing with platform boots he can't do much about this). But he's no slower than Maguire, or De Ligt. He's combative, uses his strength well and is definitely good enough for a role in the squad if he stays fit, which admittedly is a big IF.

It’s reality. I don’t believe it’s harsh at all.

Agree he’s as slow as Maguire and De Ligt - but they have other attributes to make up for it. Martinez is deficient in everything you need from a CB. On top of that, he’s been injured for half the time he’s been at the club.

I think he’s got a good personality, and he’s one of those players who’s made the very best of his ability/ attributes - but that does not make up for the fact he’s simply not good enough and not suitable for the PL.

Would any other team in the PL buy him? I don’t think so. He’s been a very poor buy.

 

[Bobby_2024]

I wish he brings in few key scouts from Brighton, Bournemouth and Palace. That would fix lot of things.

 

[Amsterdam Devil]

Jason Wilcox played lower league football mostly, not sure how that makes him an expert or highly connected.

This is a strange argument to make. He played about 15 years of PL football, won the league with Blackburn and played three England international games. Hardly lower league right?

 

[noelyman]

It’s reality. I don’t believe it’s harsh at all.

Agree he’s as slow as Maguire and De Ligt - but they have other attributes to make up for it. Martinez is deficient in everything you need from a CB. On top of that, he’s been injured for half the time he’s been at the club.

I think he’s got a good personality, and he’s one of those players who’s made the very best of his ability/ attributes - but that does not make up for the fact he’s simply not good enough and not suitable for the PL.

Would any other team in the PL buy him? I don’t think so. He’s been a very poor buy.

You started this by saying he's a 'truly awful CB' which, even if you don't rate him as highly as others do (given he's an Argentine International and played 75 games for Ajax and was their player of the season just before we bought him) not to mention an ever present in our defence before injuries disrupted his progress, is blatantly untrue and unduly harsh. Martinez is a much better passer than either Maguire or De Ligt and also shows more tenacity and steel in the tackle than both of them. All the criticisms of him beyond his injury record aren't valid. He's showed that when he's fit he has more than enough skills to compensate for his lack of height. It's truly a case of reinventing history.

Anyway I won't derail the Jason Wilcox thread any further. But simply had to take issue with you for your AWFUL CB comment.

 

[Andrei Kanspellthis]

Agreed with what you're saying mate. Let's hope we see a recruitment plan centred on a clear and defined way of playing the game.

In that context, Cunha and Mbuemo do make sense, relative to the recruitment sh!tshow of the past decade or more. On the midfield/dictating play point, if Wolves managed to find and bring in a young Vitinha a few years back, surely, for the love of god, it's not beyond the capacity of our well-remunerated leadership team and scouting network to find someone who can fill that role, or someone close to it who's not the finished article. I know we can't just go out and 'find a Vintinha', but one would hope that player profile is on the list. This was the forever gaping hole in how we've functioned, until our feeble attack became an even bigger problem.
Due to our constraints, I think we'll be left to hope that in the absence of bolstering the midfield, Amorim coaxes more out of both Mainoo and Ugarte. Mainoo was looking very good during the close of last season and into the Euros. Hope is not the best strategy, but it remains possible that we get more out of those two next season.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

You started this by saying he's a 'truly awful CB' which, even if you don't rate him as highly as others do (given he's an Argentine International and played 75 games for Ajax and was their player of the season just before we bought him) not to mention an ever present in our defence before injuries disrupted his progress, is blatantly untrue and unduly harsh. Martinez is a much better passer than either Maguire or De Ligt and also shows more tenacity and steel in the tackle than both of them. All the criticisms of him beyond his injury record aren't valid. He's showed that when he's fit he has more than enough skills to compensate for his lack of height. It's truly a case of reinventing history.

Anyway I won't derail the Jason Wilcox thread any further. But simply had to take issue with you for your AWFUL CB comment.

I stand by it, but to be fair, would caveat it within the context of the PL. But agree, this is the wrong thread.