Then we sign them and loan them out to gain first team football, if there costing peanuts then we aren’t really losing anything are we, they can only gain value by being loaned out and developing and them reassessing if there ready for the first team. I mean Amad was expensive but he had loans at Sunderland and rangers before becoming a regular here.
Jason Wilcox - Director of Football
- Thread starter reddevilchennai
- Start date
None of those players were signed this summer. And who cares there will always be moaners. I just want to see a bit of savvy and nuance from the club. Our summer business so far smacks of Woodward having a go at the second tier of the transfer market.
It's easy too. PSR effect would be total cost (transfer and wages) spread over the length of the contract - as I understand it.
Because good clubs often don't want to develop your players for you when they could buy their own if they have a good scouting network. A lot of players go out on loan and never do anything or develop.
You're working on survivorship bias. The assumption that out of the hundreds of players that come into the PL to various clubs, we would manage to:
1. Pick the ones that become star players
2. Loan them to the right club to develop
3. That the loan club would put as many resources and back them in the same way if they are a loan player vs their own player.
Chelsea are a prime example of a club that have millions of players on their books that are loaned out. How many of those come back and come into the first XI as stars? How much have Chelsea spent on players in the past few years for their first XI?
Such a bad take - all players signed this summer are of a good age, a step below 'established star' or 'established star on the wane', two thirds are premiership proven and none are (reportedly) on absurd money. In what way is it like Woodward?
They forever sign young players though who are ready for first team football. City signed a CB last year and have now just loaned him out who cost like 30m and I bet there planning on having him in there team next year. It’s a gamble either way… sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t
Does he use one or two monitors?
It's 2025 this is not acceptable, he has 3!
FM stats on one, FC25 stats on another, YouTube compilations on the third
Have people not realised you can just buy the feck off curved screens now and split them into 2,3 or 4 if they want - vastly better
I never got that far, I peaked at CRTs in the 90s
I don't think you're proving what you think you are with that image.
Once you factor in inflation Sesko, Mbuemo and Cunha are bottom of that list and some distance below the worst of Ed's overspending.
He has done well, it's pretty much undeniable. Still a bit to go in this window. If we can move on the so-called 'bomb squad' (tbf I don't think Malacia should be among the malcontents), and get us a midfielder, that will be an excellent summer window.
Yes but as I said they’re not exactly top tier targets are they. And yet we’ve paid up with the expectation that they deliver now. When you take a step back and look at the whole picture this summer it’s concerning. We are not in a position to be pushing the boat out any farther financially. If these signings don’t hit the ground running it could backfire spectacularly.
What is this supposed to prove?
As far as I can see it only serves to undermine their own argument.
This position is like gambling in big clubs, isn’t it? If transfer decisions paying big turn out to be poor, he will be fired. Hope this summer’s transfers work out in higher success rates.
Pretty graphic though, I'll give em that.
If you two would actually read the posts you reply to instead of high-fiving each other in your own weird little narrative echo-chamber I might be more bothered. Get a room will ya. Sheesh.
I don't agree, we absolutely needed a better striker. The Sesko signing is definitely gamble given the fee, but he's been linked with top clubs every transfer window for a couple of years so he likely has something about him. I'd rather the club take a chance on him than paying equally ridiculous fees for the likes of Watkins or Jackson.
Cunha and Mbeumo on the other hand have been stand out performers for other teams in the same league brought in to play in attack where we absolutely underwhelmed last year. Bruno is good obviously, but the others left a lot to be desired when playing in the number 10 roles, we've now got two good players who are strong and can carry the ball well in those positions, they clearly have an eye for goal as well.
It's not a guarantee, but they should turn out to be pretty solid signings. I'm not really sure what sort of signings you had in mind that weren't in the absolute top tier or wanted by clubs in a better position than us (and therefore probably unobtainable for us).
Someone's touchy
You could have explained yourself better. Without any commentary the graphic says feck all and your reply to me didn't enlighten me at all. I don't see the relevance of the invocation of Woodward or how it relates to the picture.
If we're taking Woodward it removes Casemiro, Antony and Hojlund from the equation and I presume you've no issue with the Bruno transfer.
So we're apparently comparing the massively over inflated fees of Pogba, Lukaku (where we got the money back), Maguire and Sancho vs what we paid for Cunha, Mbuemo and Sesko. As I said when you factor in inflation, along with the price Elanga went for, I don't see the parallel.
More tipsy than touchy.Someone's touchy
You could have explained yourself better. Without any commentary the graphic says feck all and your reply to me didn't enlighten me at all. I don't see the relevance of the invocation of Woodward or how it relates to the picture.
If we're taking Woodward it removes Casemiro, Antony and Hojlund from the equation and I presume you've no issue with the Bruno transfer.
So we're apparently comparing the massively over inflated fees of Pogba, Lukaku (where we got the money back), Maguire and Sancho vs what we paid for Cunha, Mbuemo and Sesko. As I said when you factor in inflation, along with the price Elanga went for, I don't see the parallel.
It was a bit of a throwaway comment to begin with and whether it’s Woodward or Murtough is irrelevant as there isn’t much difference between the two. We’ve gone big this summer on players who are not exactly in the top tier of targets. Hence the comment. I hope it comes off but a bit of nuance in the market might’ve served us better than throwing £60m+ at three players in such a comprehensive rebuild. It’s not a hard point to understand.
More tipsy than touchy.
It was a bit of a throwaway comment to begin with and whether it’s Woodward or Murtough is irrelevant as there isn’t much difference between the two. We’ve gone big this summer on players who are not exactly in the top tier of targets. Hence the comment. I hope it comes off but a bit of nuance in the market might’ve served us better than throwing £60m+ at three players in such a comprehensive rebuild. It’s not a hard point to understand.
To be honest I'm fairly confident Cunha and Mbuemo will be worth it and will improve us immeasurably on last year. Sesko obviously, less of a sure thing, but even if his goal scoring needs to improve with his all round game, technical ability and pace he's got a great chance of being a success.
I don't think we could really afford to bring in a bunch of cheaper options this year.
Signing players as far as the identification of said players is down to the head of recruitment and not the DoF.
The DoF's responbility here is to make sure the recruitment team are scouting players for a set way of playing the game in a proactive attacking way. Wilcox has now been a senior member of the football hierarchy for about 2 years and if he & INEOS repeat the same mistake from last summer where they neglect the midfield and fail to see the extreme importance of how the midfield plays a vital role in the build up and without the ball in higher line containing or controlling larger spaces, then I have to ask the question that these guys haven't got a clue in how to create a football direction that is proactive with and without the ball.
The posts I created on here two seasons ago where I mentioned our need to raise the level at CB & central midfield so it can aid our ability to play a more proactive attacking game is still valid now two years on.
The DoF's responbility here is to make sure the recruitment team are scouting players for a set way of playing the game in a proactive attacking way. Wilcox has now been a senior member of the football hierarchy for about 2 years and if he & INEOS repeat the same mistake from last summer where they neglect the midfield and fail to see the extreme importance of how the midfield plays a vital role in the build up and without the ball in higher line containing or controlling larger spaces, then I have to ask the question that these guys haven't got a clue in how to create a football direction that is proactive with and without the ball.
The posts I created on here two seasons ago where I mentioned our need to raise the level at CB & central midfield so it can aid our ability to play a more proactive attacking game is still valid now two years on.
He's been here less than a year and a half.
And this would be him overseeing the second summer window since joining from Southampton in April 2024. And we still have the same problems in build up, can't implement a higher line which then effects the pressing from the front and we predictably have to fall back into a more compact lower block.
Whilst I agree with you, I'm not sure how much power Wilcox has for deciding on transfer strategy, our structure seems really odd.
Ashworth by all accounts was an ops guy, someone to build out and manage departments. He's never really been someone identifying talents, it's very much sitting ontop of a very filtered funnel. Berrada assumed some or all of his role and Wilcox was given a new title but has his role changed at all? Vivell is always referred to as leading senior recruitment, Wilcox leads the junior signings from what we know (or at least some of Ratcliffe's comments about his skillset) so let's assume they work in tandem on recruiting. Are they the ones saying 'we need a CB' or deciding on where funds are spent?
I suspect Berrada is running everything and Amorim gets to say 'these are my priority positions' but then doesn't get to choose players. We know he is more involved than Maresca at Chelsea for example, who literally has zero say, so having him be able to have some influence seems quite a likely way they would run it and keep the role attractive for potential coaches.
Really good post.
It all seems a bit of a shambles if we're to compare the football structure to other clubs who have been successful with a DoF model.
So from what I understand, INEOS hired Berrarda as a non footballing executive and the knock on effect was for him to bring someone in who he had a working relationship with. hence the arrival of Wilcox. INEOS then hired Dan Ashworth as the director of football but didn't allow him to select his own assistant or select the next head coach. Ashworth's team was selected for him and it didn't seem he had a choice in accepting the new players within the football structure from the chief Scout, head coach and his own assistant. And Ashworth was the only strong player within the football structure who had a track record of developing a team in the EPL that played a proactive attacking style with success.
And if Laurie Whitwell and The Athletic are anything to go by, then it does seem Ashworth was made surplus to requirements due to the friendship of Berrarda and Wilcox which made it very difficult for Ashworth to operate and lead the football structure.
Yeah, though I have never seen any real source for the references to Berrada/Wilcox clique, I would not be surprised if it were true. I suspect Ashworth will be giving some opinions at some point though, so it will be interesting to hear his side of the story.
So far I would describe our transfer strategy in terms of players quite standard but sensible - it's hard to say we've got any good prices but I feel we're paying market value, a big improvement on previous regimes, and going for quite obvious less risky names where possible, with the little bit of risk being Sesko over someone like Watkins (although we do not know what price Villa gave us for Watkins as maybe he was top choice). The question mark, as you said, is maybe on where the money is being allocated; if you had done a poll on the caf for 3 transfers at the end of last season I think people would have said CF, GK, CM or maybe CB. The 10's, as much as I personally like the signings, were less pressing for me.
That said, if there is a tactical shift coming and Amorim is going to be more flexible + play more direct/push the press higher then I think the squad looks a lot more promising as less creativity is needed from the CBs/CMs.
Two insightful takes and the latter hits the nail on the head. It’s still early days but I’m not at all impressed with the structure we’ve supposedly established which seems to boil down to Berrada FC.
It’s ominous because we’ve seen the damage giving one person too much sway can do with managers as well as executives time and again. Yet here we are with another fella hiring his buddies and what’s worse pissing the structure he was hired to build up the wall in the process. All so he can have his say in every little thing. For a guy who has never been a CEO or called the shots from a recruitment perspective he certainly backs himself this Berrada.
The Ashworth fiasco should really be more concerning to a lot of our fans but of course the PR spin from the club was strong as ever. The most worrying aspect of all of this is just how effective Ratcliffe, Berrada and Amorim have been in lowering the standards of the club in the past year or so.
Tixi Bergestein (who helped build the great Bercelona squad considered the best club side of all time before moving to Man City to help them win everything possible over a generation):
"Jason Wilcox has the best eye for talent that I've seen in all my years in football."
Omar Berada (Also involved in the great Barcelona squad considered the best club side of all time before moving to Man City to help them win everything possible over a generation) :
"Nobody knows a young player how Jason Wilcox knows a young player. The work he did at Manchester CIty in identifying young and hungry talent is incdedible"
Bergestein and Berada are the arguably the Sir Alex Ferguson of their roles in that they built football clubs, not just football teams, who went on to win multiple league titles (with both Barcelona and then Man City) for twenty consecutive years.
I am HUGELY EXCITED about the talent WIlcox has helped bring in, along with arguably the best scout in the world (Cris Vivell). and you should be too. Wilcox is our main guy now. Much more important than head coach. It is Wilcox who will design our squad. Yoro, Heaven, Obi, Leon, Dorgu, Kone are much more exciting signings than Cunha and Mbeumo for me. I'm much more excited about our future than I am to see if we can win anything over teh next two years.
- Brand new CEO of Manchester United Football Club
- Brand new director of football
- Brand new head of recruitment
- Brand new manager
- Brand new football philosophy
- Brand new club culture (evident even to a blind person over the course of this summer)
- Brand new training ground
- Our adacemy killing it (Under-18s won the treble season before last, our under-21 talent is INSANE, including the top goalscorer in acadmy football history and arguably the two greatest young defenders in world football)
- Arguably the best youth signings in Europe over the past 18-months
- A definitive plan to win multiple titles starting in 2028
- Brand new stadium coming as early as 2031
- Manchester United fans still moaning online
"Jason Wilcox has the best eye for talent that I've seen in all my years in football."
Omar Berada (Also involved in the great Barcelona squad considered the best club side of all time before moving to Man City to help them win everything possible over a generation) :
"Nobody knows a young player how Jason Wilcox knows a young player. The work he did at Manchester CIty in identifying young and hungry talent is incdedible"
Bergestein and Berada are the arguably the Sir Alex Ferguson of their roles in that they built football clubs, not just football teams, who went on to win multiple league titles (with both Barcelona and then Man City) for twenty consecutive years.
I am HUGELY EXCITED about the talent WIlcox has helped bring in, along with arguably the best scout in the world (Cris Vivell). and you should be too. Wilcox is our main guy now. Much more important than head coach. It is Wilcox who will design our squad. Yoro, Heaven, Obi, Leon, Dorgu, Kone are much more exciting signings than Cunha and Mbeumo for me. I'm much more excited about our future than I am to see if we can win anything over teh next two years.
- Brand new CEO of Manchester United Football Club
- Brand new director of football
- Brand new head of recruitment
- Brand new manager
- Brand new football philosophy
- Brand new club culture (evident even to a blind person over the course of this summer)
- Brand new training ground
- Our adacemy killing it (Under-18s won the treble season before last, our under-21 talent is INSANE, including the top goalscorer in acadmy football history and arguably the two greatest young defenders in world football)
- Arguably the best youth signings in Europe over the past 18-months
- A definitive plan to win multiple titles starting in 2028
- Brand new stadium coming as early as 2031
- Manchester United fans still moaning online
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In 3 months he did 3 transfers and one loan. Now he must sell 4 or 5 players and buy one or two players in 4 days.
Waiting on my friend @bond19821982 () to explain me how this is in fact some cunning plan which best in the class people do.
Waiting on my friend @bond19821982 (
) to explain me how this is in fact some cunning plan which best in the class people do.So he should be held responsible for selling overrated overpaid duds from the previous management and that too on our terms ? Makes perfect sense.In 3 months he did 3 transfers and one loan. Now he must sell 4 or 5 players and buy one or two players in 4 days.
Waiting on my friend @bond19821982 (
You can continue your moaning. Spare me !
Finally managed to sell a player after all this time. Still didn't get a good price
Is that you Jason?Gotta love pre season eh. The levels of delusion the regular football fan will go through is quite something.
As for Jason Wilcox and his recruitment. I’ll give him a 2/10 so far. This the clown who got us spending 30 million on Dorgu and has sold Garnacho for 10 million more.
You can judge his transfers in 3-4 years. But yes, there are some positive signs like yoro. And i have a feeling that we have made a big step forward by trimming the squad and bringing together a team of people that have the right mentality. At some point this will show - but building a team is a process. Just hope we dont disrupt this again and again.
All three players signed this season were for very large transfer fees. The fact that Mbeumo/Cunha are below star level is the problem really. As 26 year olds who essentially "are what they are at this point", they're both overpays for what we're getting. Combined with selling Garnacho below what he's worth, to me it's pretty bad business.
Sesko is TBD. High ceiling, but it remains to be seen if he can put it together.