They also didn't have the courage and humility to admit that they had made a mistake (we all make them, there's no issue with that), if Amorim hadn't decided to basically get himself fired then they would have persisted with him at least until the summer and may well have continued into next season hoping with no evidence that their judgement might have been right.
Wilcox is seriously out of depth but my concern lay with berrada. He gave the thumbs up for Amorim's deal and he gave Wilcox a promotion few months after starting with us. We need a serious CEO not on the job learner who wants to turn us in City 2.0
Ineos needs to learn how to walk before it decides to compete against Usain bolt in a run. If I was SJR I'd get Gill back as CEO, I'd break the bank for Luis Campos and i'd court Ancelotti. We need experienced world class hands that can give us time and experience to properly build the structure at this clubI don't have a strong opinion of Wilcox because I believe that Berrada and SJR sabotaged any possible DOFs by imposing a head coach that didn't make much practical sense, they also sabotaged them because it makes it nearly impossible for the DOF to be quickly critical of the head coach without questioning his superiors. So as you suggested my concerns are more with Berrada than anyone else.
It is not if you really do it. Wilcox on DoF position is not best in the class. He is a rookie. Sir Jim is just empty words.Best in class really is a joke.
It is not if you really do it. Wilcox on DoF position is not best in the class. He is a rookie. Sir Jim is just empty words.
We’d be better with the Saudis coming in wouldn’t weIt is not if you really do it. Wilcox on DoF position is not best in the class. He is a rookie. Sir Jim is just empty words.
So they had concerns about historically unprecedented failure but were cool giving him more time... until he wouldn't listen to their notes?
If 38% win percentage and 15th place weren't enough to pull the trigger, but pushing back on their formation ideas was, then the problem wasn't Amorim being stubborn.
It's that they never had real performance standards to begin with.
I think the reason they didn't fire him earlier is that it would've looked bad on them. They only fired him when he publicly made them look bad. Nothing to do with results, performance, club direction, it's all about optics and covering their asses.
feck em
We’d be better with the Saudis coming in wouldn’t we
There’s a strong correlation between money and success.Doubtful. We'd just have had more money to throw around.
There’s a strong correlation between money and success.
Best in class really is a joke.
There’s a strong correlation between money and success.
I don't have a strong opinion of Wilcox because I believe that Berrada and SJR sabotaged any possible DOFs by imposing a head coach that didn't make much practical sense, they also sabotaged them because it makes it nearly impossible for the DOF to be quickly critical of the head coach without questioning his superiors. So as you suggested my concerns are more with Berrada than anyone else.
I don't have a strong opinion of Wilcox because I believe that Berrada and SJR sabotaged any possible DOFs by imposing a head coach that didn't make much practical sense, they also sabotaged them because it makes it nearly impossible for the DOF to be quickly critical of the head coach without questioning his superiors. So as you suggested my concerns are more with Berrada than anyone else.
I'd be onboard with this idea. Or a variation of it with, Enrique. Either way, I think this is what is required.Ineos needs to learn how to walk before it decides to compete against Usain bolt in a run. If I was SJR I'd get Gill back as CEO, I'd break the bank for Luis Campos and i'd court Ancelotti. We need experienced world class hands that can give us time and experience to properly build the structure at this club
That’s now how correlations work. I didn’t say money guarantees success.The last 14 years watching United says otherwise.
That’s now how correlations work. I didn’t say money guarantees success.
However if you look at the last 14 years, we are probably still top 6 in terms of successful teams in the PL.
I'm no Wilcox fan, but surely this would be a positive? Literally overruling a manager hellbent on playing a certain way for. The good of the club?If I remember correctly, didn't he also get involved with how we should play in the FA cup final?
Whilst I have no sympathy regarding Amorim, I foresee it being a problem even with a successful manager at some point.
That is precisely why I never thought they would sack Amorim. And to be fair, it seems like the correct notion as he forced their hand rather than the performances or results.They also didn't have the courage and humility to admit that they had made a mistake (we all make them, there's no issue with that), if Amorim hadn't decided to basically get himself fired then they would have persisted with him at least until the summer and may well have continued into next season hoping with no evidence that their judgement might have been right.
Yes, and I don't see why that's such an issue. We were willing to give him time, not because he was doing brilliantly or that we were happy with results and performances, but because we were hoping things would evolve and improve - and so will he. Once we realised he's not even listening to suggestions, it became pointless.
Seems there is an anti Wilcox agenda floating around, I ain't buying into it.
Its quite funny really.
Countless posts saying he led or oversaw or hired Amorim directly. Then a over the top reactions at the latest tweet which is literally his job as technical director.
I don't have a strong opinion of Wilcox because I believe that Berrada and SJR sabotaged any possible DOFs by imposing a head coach that didn't make much practical sense, they also sabotaged them because it makes it nearly impossible for the DOF to be quickly critical of the head coach without questioning his superiors. So as you suggested my concerns are more with Berrada than anyone else.
Yeah, agree with this. I feel it was Berrada that led the change, knowing that Amorim was under consideration at City.
People criticizing Wilcox for the Amorim hire need to remember he wasn't the DoF then. He was Technical Director, iirc, so likely had input but probably not enough to veto the CEO.
And if it was true that people at the club were told that Amorim was going to evolve his system "from the outset", it gives some cover for those who hired him that he wasn't always going to be a 3421 manager.
More one for the Wilcox thread, but I don't believe he has done much wrong, so far. Even though on paper, he is under qualified.
The more I read, the more I feel Wilcox is nothing but a power tripping egotistical knobsack.
I hope he gets potted in summer and we move on from him.
How we arrived at the decision that he is more suited and capable than Ashworth, I'll never know.
The more I read, the more I feel Wilcox is nothing but a power tripping egotistical knobsack.
I hope he gets potted in summer and we move on from him.
How we arrived at the decision that he is more suited and capable than Ashworth, I'll never know.
I get the point about Berrada and SJR forcing Amorim on him, and yeah, that's a tough spot. But here's the thing: Wilcox's job didn't end when Amorim was appointed. Even if he disagreed with the choice, his job was to understand what that coach needed and recruit for it. Whether you picked the coach or not, the job's the same: figure out what the system needs and buy those players. Amorim's system wasn't some mystery - it needed defenders who can pass, midfielders who can handle pressure and progress the ball. Wilcox had two transfer windows and spent the money on attackers instead. That's on Wilcox not understanding his job or not having the guts to do it right.
And the political angle doesn't hold up either. if Wilcox thought Amorim was the wrong choice, he had options. Push back like Ashworth apparently did. Resign on principle. Or if he stayed, he should've said "fine, I disagreed, but now I'll give this coach what he needs to succeed." Instead he kept quiet, watched Ashworth get sacked, took his job, and still didn't fix the squad.
You can't have it both ways. Either Wilcox backed the Amorim hire and owns the mess, or he disagreed but failed to do his basic job of supporting the coach through recruitment. Either way, he failed. Blaming Berrada doesn't change that Wilcox has done his job badly for two years.
This part essentially amounts to leave or potentially damage the club long term. Surely you see that your logic is shortsighted? Sometimes the right move is to bide your time.
I personally don't know whether Wilcox is at fault or not but as an outsider I can see good reasons for the way he seemingly handled things.
There's no agenda, there's a track record. Wilcox has been at the club nearly two years and has spent more money sacking backroom staff and paying compensation than he has signing midfielders. He's arguably been a worse director of football than Amorim and Ten Hag were as managers.
Look at the pattern: anytime anyone disagrees with Berrada and Wilcox, they get sacked. Ashworth put his neck on the line recommending against Amorim, got the boot within five months, and Wilcox took his job after staying silent. Then the only interview he's done was after we won three in a row, flexing about what a great job INEOS is doing. He's had two years to address the fundamental squad issues everyone can see - that CB-midfield connection, press resistance, progressive passing from deep - and instead prioritized spending on attackers while the spine remains broken.
You want evidence he's competent? Show me the midfield signings. Show me the ball-playing defenders. Show me any coherent recruitment strategy that aligns playing style with personnel. Because right now all I see is political maneuvering, reactive decisions, and the same structural problems that have plagued us for years.
This is what terrifies me about the sacking. I don't think Amorim was the right man. However they did it on emotion and no planning. Amorim was not on the verge of relegation, we weren't fighting to save ourselves from the bottom three, but you get into a massive bust up over whatever and you act emotionally. You could've sacking him in a month from now, but no. We are now pissing into the wind, we have former players doubting our moves and giving insight into whom really coached the team. Are we getting Mckenna back? Is anyone in the club thinking about this?
We truly are the Jersey Shore / The Only Way Is Essex of football. Have a spat, slap each other around and then act like the "good old days" will save us. There is no feckING planning by Wilcox, Berrada or Brexit Jim. It's a fecking reality show.
Yes, Klopp didn't target Mane or VVD. Liverpool did. Klopp, being the manager of Liverpool and involved in the process, was asked for his input, given acces to the scouting reports and was on board with those signings of course. That's how a healthy working relationship works. Klopp, rather famously at this point, was "convinced" that Salah was going to be a grear signing for them - but that's the thing. Liverpool told Klopp they were going to sign Salah. They didn't ask him to agree, they showed him and how and why it was the best target.
Guardiola doesn't recruit his own players, no. Sure, sometimes he might get fixated on one player specifically and ask for him, but in general, he simply gives his assessment of the squad and provides input on what he needs - from there, the scouting department identifies targets and their boss(who is Guardiola's boss, too) decides. Guardiola himself has always been pretty clear and open about this. This is also means that sometimes he lost players he wanted to retain (Kroos, Bayern) and sometimes he found players forced on him that his club saw as must-sign, even if they weren't a great fit. This is how the majority of clubs outside of england have worked since forever
Missed this earlier, thanks for bringing together. If you add in league finishes as well (or CL qualification), then it’s clear to see that spending money correlates to success. Villa are showing this season that you can be near the top end without spending a fortune, but do we think that can be sustained?This is how I'd rank all English trophy winners post-Fergie (so the last 12 years, and I've left out community shields, super cups, and any club world cup nonsense):
You could even argue that we're 4th, given Leicester have been relegated twice since then.
- City - 7x Premier League, 1x Champions League, 2x FA Cup, 6x League Cup
- Chelsea - 2x Premier League, 1x Champions League, 1x Europa League, 1x FA Cup, 1x Conference League, 1x League Cup
- Liverpool - 2x Premier League, 1x Champions League, 1x FA Cup, 2x League Cup
- Leicester - 1x Premier League, 1x FA Cup
- United - 1x Europa League, 2x FA Cup, 2x League Cup
- Arsenal - 4x FA Cup
- Spurs - 1x Europa League
- Palace - 1x FA Cup
- West Ham - 1x Conference League
- Newcastle - 1x League Cup
How would Yorke know this ? Also where are those quotes from ? I’ve tried looking online but can’t find anything from a reliable source.
The Source seems to be a BEIN panel thing
Absolutely. Just imagine, we could be watching the irresistible star power and unleashed footballing bombast of Antony Gordon, Jacob Murphy and Harvey Barnes week in week out!We’d be better with the Saudis coming in wouldn’t we
They split the role right? Vivell is more important for the scouting and the signings and Wilcox for the way they want the club to play from top to bottom. If he has that role it is not a bad thing to tell Amorim to quit the 3 at the back nonsense. They shouldn’t have hired Amorim in the first place and it seemed Wilcox was against it. But he tried to make it work and supported him a lot it seems. It speaks volumes that all the other teams at the club stayed in the old structure and philosophy and weren’t playing with 3 in the back. It wasn’t the vision Wilcox saw. Ten Hag was involved with the second and youth teams as well, which vision and principles of play he had. It seems Amorim was never involved with that because the club/Wilcox didn’t share his principles. But still tried to make it work. I’m not for or against Wilcox because I don’t know what he does exactly and what is his responsibility or what Berrada en Jim want.He should be a technical director. No idea why we have not installed another proven and top DoF
The Source seems to be a BEIN panel thing
Jeff, I'm not entirely sure what your point is here. I think as others and myself have made clear, the best run clubs have a strong football management structure, including a good DOF, data analytics, scouting. Those clubs typically have a broadly agreed style of play that is implemented throughout the club from academy to U21s. In some cases, especially some of smaller clubs like Brighton and Brentford, that style is set by the club and coaches hired to fit. In some cases, certainly Pep and Klopp, the style is set by the manager, but the end point is the same. There is then a separate discussion around the role of the manager. In some cases they have a vote, in others a veto. In the case of Klopp, he made it clear it was a veto, I am sure that is the case for Pep. Villa have gone all in on Emery and he has a veto as well. The demands on the time of a modern PL manager are so intense they simply have no time to be more actively involved in recruitment.You need to read your email and once again, refer to what is the question I asked: did Jurgen Klopp, or does Pep Guardiloa decide who the players are who are signed by their respective clubs? That is a simple yes or no. I say the answer is yes, they do decide. If they do not want those players, then they are not signed and do not play. Pep isn't just given a bunch of players and told, here you go. Pep wanted Doku. Pep wanted Haaland. Pep wanted Rodri. Pep wanted a different goalkeeper so he dropped Joe Hart. Pep wanted Grealish then didn't want him anymore. Of course he receives scouting reports but Pep decides. As did Klopp. As does Emery. As does Arteta. Managers have scouts, Clubs have a scouting system, of course, it's been this way for years. But certain managers have the final, ultimate say, and some do not and that is my question.
I do need your rather protracted statement which relates to the process, rather than who has the final decision.
Your post comes across as very emotional.
You are terrified?
People are questions his sacking, so what? People would have questioned him staying, and there was constant noise around him.
McKenna is not leaving Ipswich on the cusp of another PL promotion mid-season.
Amorim forced the club to sack him. We will have a short term plan until the end of the season in the next week.
