Jason Wilcox - Director of Football

[Lash]

What did Wilcox do wrong? Amorim was a terrible appointment in hindsight but it did seem sensible at that time, kinda like the Villas Boas appointment by Chelsea. Key thing was they got rid of him before serious damage was inflicted and now we are in top 4.

I've made my feelings known in this thread, but I personally don't think he's got a long term vision or very good at planning. He also seemed to just align himself with the right people to get this job, rather than anything proactive. He also seems to have a habit of distancing himself from the bad decisions, whilst being one of the ultimate decision makers - I don't like that in any walk of life, to be honest.

 

[pelterz]

I've made my feelings known in this thread, but I personally don't think he's got a long term vision or very good at planning. He also seemed to just align himself with the right people to get this job, rather than anything proactive. He also seems to have a habit of distancing himself from the bad decisions, whilst being one of the ultimate decision makers - I don't like that in any walk of life, to be honest.

Big Jim likes to do things on the cheap and take huge gambles to achieve it. Think Wilcox is talking Jim’s language. Has little to do with Football and more to do with longer term financial goals. Keep team spending low(relatively) try to over achieve rinse and repeat. Check share price.

 

[Lash]

Big Jim likes to do things on the cheap and take huge gambles to achieve it. Think Wilcox is talking Jim’s language. Has little to do with Football and more to do with longer term financial goals. Keep team spending low(relatively) try to over achieve rinse and repeat. Check share price.

He doesn't back that up though. Our attack cost us close to 200m this summer and we still need to improve it to truly compete. One of the signings you can really point to Wilcox on, was Ugarte and that still cost us quite a chunk of change. It may be harsh, but I think he just seems to be good at aligning himself with the prevailing thought at the time.

 

[AB_89]

He doesn't back that up though. Our attack cost us close to 200m this summer and we still need to improve it to truly compete. One of the signings you can really point to Wilcox on, was Ugarte and that still cost us quite a chunk of change. It may be harsh, but I think he just seems to be good at aligning himself with the prevailing thought at the time.

What do you expect the club to do in one window? The business we did this summer has been massively successful whatever you may think of WIlcox. We have gone from scoring 44 league goals to 60 with 4 games less, plus the front 3 lead the press and make us harder to beat. Compare the forwards we signed to Newcastle in the summer, who we were competing with for these players and the difference is night and day. For a fraction more money we got: Cunha, Mbeumo and Sesko vs Woltemade, Wissa and Elanga.

Yes, there is still work to do but we have a solid foundation to build from.

 

[Mockney]

He doesn't back that up though. Our attack cost us close to 200m this summer and we still need to improve it to truly compete. One of the signings you can really point to Wilcox on, was Ugarte and that still cost us quite a chunk of change. It may be harsh, but I think he just seems to be good at aligning himself with the prevailing thought at the time.

Its been unequivocally one of the most successful transfer windows we've ever had, just on account of none of the players flopping and all of them contributing massively in big moments. Thats almost unheard of at any club, let alone one with our recent history. Theyre also all still young, Lammens & Sesko particularly. Seems very weird to quibble that they arent immediately CL winning level. We were 15th when they signed

 

[Drainy]

What do you expect the club to do in one window? The business we did this summer has been massively successful whatever you may think of WIlcox. We have gone from scoring 44 league goals to 60 with 4 games less, plus the front 3 lead the press and make us harder to beat. Compare the forwards we signed to Newcastle in the summer, who we were competing with for these players and the difference is night and day. For a fraction more money we got: Cunha, Mbeumo and Sesko vs Woltemade, Wissa and Elanga.

Yes, there is still work to do but we have a solid foundation to build from.

There are a lot of fans who seem to.expect the club to have been fixed by now.

They don't think about the starting position, our bargaining position, cash flow, finance or regulations, or the human element of recruitment. Just we're man utd so fix it now

 

[Lash]

What do you expect the club to do in one window? The business we did this summer has been massively successful whatever you may think of WIlcox. We have gone from scoring 44 league goals to 60 with 4 games less, plus the front 3 lead the press and make us harder to beat. Compare the forwards we signed to Newcastle in the summer, who we were competing with for these players and the difference is night and day. For a fraction more money we got: Cunha, Mbeumo and Sesko vs Woltemade, Wissa and Elanga.

Yes, there is still work to do but we have a solid foundation to build from.

I'm not saying it isn't. I would expect it to be after spending £250m-ish. I think we will have to spend similar this window and the worry is then how much is moves the needle, now we'll be in europe. I don't think we need to benchmark ourselves against Newcastle. The worry for me is the rubber will hit the road very quickly if we've spent 500m ish million and only back into the top 4. I have big gripes about our squad construction, there was a graphic in another thread that when you look at it - it's a stark reminder how badly put together it is.

Its been unequivocally one of the most successful transfer windows we've ever had, just on account of none of the players flopping and all of them contributing massively in big moments. Thats almost unheard of at any club, let alone one with our recent history. Theyre also all still young, Lammens & Sesko particularly. Seems very weird to quibble that they arent immediately CL winning level. We were 15th when they signed

I'm not quibbling the quality of the individual players, I've always maintained they're all good players. The issue for me is how much we spend and the gaps left in the squad as a result, we have to replace Casemiro and will start to think of sucession planning for Bruno. Also the crocks we have in our squad leaves us in a bit of a precarious position with a lot of games next season. There's annoying purchases that need to be made as well, like back up keeper.

 

[Zed is not dead]

I'm not saying it isn't. I would expect it to be after spending £250m-ish. I think we will have to spend similar this window and the worry is then how much is moves the needle, now we'll be in europe. I don't think we need to benchmark ourselves against Newcastle. The worry for me is the rubber will hit the road very quickly if we've spent 500m ish million and only back into the top 4. I have big gripes about our squad construction, there was a graphic in another thread that when you look at it - it's a stark reminder how badly put together it is.

I'm not quibbling the quality of the individual players, I've always maintained they're all good players. The issue for me is how much we spend and the gaps left in the squad as a result, we have to replace Casemiro and will start to think of sucession planning for Bruno. Also the crocks we have in our squad leaves us in a bit of a precarious position with a lot of games next season. There's annoying purchases that need to be made as well, like back up keeper.

Spending is not a very good metric anymore. Most PL clubs spend at least 100m per summer, even newly promoted clubs spend big.
Nowadays 200m brings you 4 or 5 players IF you are very very shrewd. Clubs like West Ham can spend more than £40m on a midfielder from Portugal.

I don’t see how we can rebuild the whole squad without either 1) spending big or 2) recruiting cheap punts but this means we would have to be patient until they develop and turn out good

 

[Lash]

Spending is not a very good metric anymore. Most PL clubs spend at least 100m per summer, even newly promoted clubs spend big.
Nowadays 200m brings you 4 or 5 players IF you are very very shrewd. Clubs like West Ham can spend more than £40m on a midfielder from Portugal.

I don’t see how we can rebuild the whole squad without either 1) spending big or 2) recruiting cheap punts but this means we would have to be patient until they develop and turn out good

I think it can be a better mix. £250m all in got us Lammens, Dorgu, Cunha, Mbeumo and Sesko. I don't think you necessarily have to sign the player that's the mainstay for the next 5 years for every position, all the time.

I think you can do a mix of big money signings and leveraging our obviously good scouting network, to get the likes of Lammens - also make some decisions. I'm sick of key signings not being ready for the start of the season and losing weeks of bedding in or being match fit.

 

[Revan]

Think we got lucky with top 4. Definitely sacked too late and another season we’d be no where near.

This ain't true. We will likely reach with around 70 points this season.

Last year, for UCL, it was needed only 66 (and better GD) or 67 points. One year before, 68-69 points would have done it. One further year before, 72 points (to leapfrom Newcastle with 71), which is still technically possible if we win our last 4 matches. And one further year before, again 72 would have been enough.

So, despite this season is slightly weaker than some others, we would have had decent chances last year and the year before that, and still be in UCL race the previous two years before that. Around 70 points is the norm to get UCL, nowadays slightly lower is ok cause of the 5th place.

 

[M Bison]

This ain't true. We will likely reach with around 70 points this season.

Last year, for UCL, it was needed only 66 (and better GD) or 67 points. One year before, 68-69 points would have done it. One further year before, 72 points (to leapfrom Newcastle with 71), which is still technically possible if we win our last 4 matches. And one further year before, again 72 would have been enough.

So, despite this season is slightly weaker than some others, we would have had decent chances last year and the year before that, and still be in UCL race the previous two years before that. Around 70 points is the norm to get UCL, nowadays slightly lower is ok cause of the 5th place.

Well those are inconvenient and pesky facts...

 

[King Kendrick]

Tbh I genuinely don’t understand this “best window” talk. Both of the prized attackers we picked up will most likely need replacing ink the first 11 if we want to win PL/CL. Sure, they raised the floor of the team, and to an extent we needed that, but at the same time history says their production will continue to wane from here, and that’s before I bring up purchasing when their value was highest as both were coming off historically outlier seasons.

Yet in the game model thread and specific target threads we’re continuing this trend of floor raising ceiling lowering signings, apart from Anderson. The only other thing that links all these signings and targets is they’re all multi positional and should in theory fit several systems. Doesn’t really sound like we’re building with one specific game theory in mind, just raise the floor, ensure last season doesn’t happen again, have players who can fit several holes in case the don’t succeed/manager doesn’t see them at them a certain position.

 

[Andy_Cole]

This ain't true. We will likely reach with around 70 points this season.

Last year, for UCL, it was needed only 66 (and better GD) or 67 points. One year before, 68-69 points would have done it. One further year before, 72 points (to leapfrom Newcastle with 71), which is still technically possible if we win our last 4 matches. And one further year before, again 72 would have been enough.

So, despite this season is slightly weaker than some others, we would have had decent chances last year and the year before that, and still be in UCL race the previous two years before that. Around 70 points is the norm to get UCL, nowadays slightly lower is ok cause of the 5th place.

Fair enough

 

[Big Ron’s Coat]

Tbh I genuinely don’t understand this “best window” talk. Both of the prized attackers we picked up will most likely need replacing ink the first 11 if we want to win PL/CL. Sure, they raised the floor of the team, and to an extent we needed that, but at the same time history says their production will continue to wane from here, and that’s before I bring up purchasing when their value was highest as both were coming off historically outlier seasons.

Agree completely. We’ll be looking to replace one if not both in the next few years which is not a sustainable transfer model for any club aside from 115 FC. I really like Cunha but both those fees look daft when Semenyo had a similar release clause. Never mind the fact that it was mad to go for Mbeumo after signing Cunha when we needed a midfielder so badly.

 

[Posh Red]

Who has a better selection of attacking players - United or Arsenal?

 

[SoCross]

Agree completely. We’ll be looking to replace one if not both in the next few years which is not a sustainable transfer model for any club aside from 115 FC. I really like Cunha but both those fees look daft when Semenyo had a similar release clause. Never mind the fact that it was mad to go for Mbeumo after signing Cunha when we needed a midfielder so badly.

How was it mad?

We’d have been left with Cunha, Sesko, Amad, Zirkzee. Definitely would not be 3rd place right now. It was the right decision to pursue Mbeumo, easily.

 

[VP89]

Apparently wingers contributing around 10 goals in a debut season each, are not good enough for a title challenging team.

Heard it all now

 

[Posh Red]

Apparently wingers contributing around 10 goals in a debut season each, are not good enough for a title challenging team.

Heard it all now

Yeah. Pretty ridiculous analysis really.

 

[Big Ron’s Coat]

How was it mad?

We’d have been left with Cunha, Sesko, Amad, Zirkzee. Definitely would not be 3rd place right now. It was the right decision to pursue Mbeumo, easily.

And Bruno. Our best attacker who was neutered for most of the season due to that decision.

 

[Big Ron’s Coat]

Apparently wingers contributing around 10 goals in a debut season each, are not good enough for a title challenging team.

Heard it all now

Both will be 27 before next season starts. That’s quite a low bar you’re hanging your hat on.

 

[SoCross]

And Bruno. Our best attacker who was neutered for most of the season due to that decision.

Could easily say it was madness to not buy a wingback - Diallo was neutered for most of the season due to that decision.

I hear you, a midfielder is a must. But Mbeumo is a good signing.

 

[Withnail]

Agree completely. We’ll be looking to replace one if not both in the next few years which is not a sustainable transfer model for any club aside from 115 FC. I really like Cunha but both those fees look daft when Semenyo had a similar release clause. Never mind the fact that it was mad to go for Mbeumo after signing Cunha when we needed a midfielder so badly.

Why would Semenyo have been a better option? He's even less of a wide player than either of them imo. It's hard to say that he's improved City and his form has also dropped off lately.

 

[Pickle85]

Could easily say it was madness to not buy a wingback - Diallo was neutered for most of the season due to that decision.

I hear you, a midfielder is a must. But Mbeumo is a good signing.

Diallo seems largely neutered regardless, to be honest

 

[Big Ron’s Coat]

Why would Semenyo have been a better option? He's even less of a wide player than either of them imo. It's hard to say that he's improved City and his form has also dropped off lately.

Because he’s clearly a better player. And he’s done pretty well considering City’s style of play really doesn’t suit him and Guardiola has played him almost exclusively on the right.

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

Both will be 27 before next season starts. That’s quite a low bar you’re hanging your hat on.

27 is hardly ancient. You've probably still got two or three more seasons of their prime level left going purely on averages.

The fact is that both Cunha and Mbeumo have played an important part in us (almost certainly) being back in the Champions League next season, and that gives us a much stronger foundation on which to further improve the squad this summer.

At the moment, I think it's difficult to make a convincing case that either of them has not proven to be a sensible signing.

 

[Withnail]

Because he’s clearly a better player. And he’s done pretty well considering City’s style of play really doesn’t suit him and Guardiola has played him almost exclusively on the right.

Each to their own but I don't think that's clear at all. What are you basing that on?


It has to be noted that his 16 goals so far this season are as much of as outlier as Cunha and Mbeumo's goal scoring level was last season.

 

[Big Ron’s Coat]

27 is hardly ancient. You've probably still got two or three more seasons of their prime level left going purely on averages.

The fact is that both Cunha and Mbeumo have played an important part in us (almost certainly) being back in the Champions League next season, and that gives us a much stronger foundation on which to further improve the squad this summer.

At the moment, I think it's difficult to make a convincing case that either of them has not proven to be a sensible signing.

And who’s to say we wouldn’t be in a better position had we signed a midfielder instead of Mbeumo. It’s a bit of a loaded discussion because the previous manager was a big part of that decision and obviously we would’ve been better off moving on from him. But we would definitely be better off from squad-building perspective had we got a midfielder in.

Going for Mbeumo was anything but sensible.

 

[Big Ron’s Coat]

Each to their own but I don't think that's clear at all. What are you basing that on?


It has to be noted that his 16 goals so far this season are as much of as outlier as Cunha and Mbeumo's goal scoring level was last season.

Splitting hairs tbf and tbh having just looked him up I thought he was a year or two younger. Not sure where I got that idea from.

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

And who’s to say we wouldn’t be in a better position had we signed a midfielder instead of Mbeumo. It’s a bit of a loaded discussion because the previous manager was a big part of that decision and obviously we would’ve been better off moving on from him. But we would definitely be better off from squad-building perspective had we got a midfielder in.

Going for Mbeumo was anything but sensible.

I mean without Mbeumo, we'd have been entirely reliant on Amad at right-wing for the entire season. I actually still like Amad but his output this season would have been a major issue had he been our sole right-sided forward.

I agree that we'd have benefitted from a midfielder as well but to have been better off than we are now that midfielder would really have had to have put us in the title race, and I don't think that would've happened.

Mbeumo and Cunha are both decisive forward players who have won us games, and we had none of those before the season started.

 

[Lash]

I mean without Mbeumo, we'd have been entirely reliant on Amad at right-wing for the entire season. I actually still like Amad but his output this season would have been a major issue had he been our sole right-sided forward.

I agree that we'd have benefitted from a midfielder as well but to have been better off than we are now that midfielder would really have had to have put us in the title race, and I don't think that would've happened.

Mbeumo and Cunha are both decisive forward players who have won us games, and we had none of those before the season started.

Mbuemo wasn't the only right wing option in world football in the summer though. It would have been nice to think, we're going to go for Sesko, so should target someone who's strength is crossing. I don't think we really planned that far ahead anyway, as Mbuemo was an alternative to Semenyo and Sesko seemed to be the alternative to Watkins. I've also discussed in this thread the fact we signed two players on the right hand side, that were going to feck off to the AFCON in a traditionally busy period in english football. I like Mbuemo, but I wouldn't call it the most sensible signing based on the squad - he's a good player though, absolutely no doubt about that.

I don't even think of having a midfield would necessarily made us better in terms of league standing, but I think it would have made a far more balanced squad and given Amorim and Carrick more options. Amorim couldn't play the way he wanted to and Carrick can only really play the way he's playing.

 

[Drainy]

Mbuemo wasn't the only right wing option in world football in the summer though. It would have been nice to think, we're going to go for Sesko, so should target someone who's strength is crossing. I don't think we really planned that far ahead anyway, as Mbuemo was an alternative to Semenyo and Sesko seemed to be the alternative to Watkins. I've also discussed in this thread the fact we signed two players on the right hand side, that were going to feck off to the AFCON in a traditionally busy period in english football. I like Mbuemo, but I wouldn't call it the most sensible signing based on the squad - he's a good player though, absolutely no doubt about that.

I don't even think of having a midfield would necessarily made us better in terms of league standing, but I think it would have made a far more balanced squad and given Amorim and Carrick more options. Amorim couldn't play the way he wanted to and Carrick can only really play the way he's playing.

Did you actually watch Mbeumo for Brentford?

One of the best crossers in the league.

 

[Lash]

Did you actually watch Mbeumo for Brentford?

One of the best crossers in the league.

Hmm, I would put quite a few players above him last season. Especially with the type of cross Sesko thrives off, they come from deeper and he's not really that good at that. Either way, he's not really shown that for us at all.

 

[VP89]

Both will be 27 before next season starts. That’s quite a low bar you’re hanging your hat on.

We also have Dorgu, Amad and probably JJ Gabriel coming up the ranks.

Getting established wingers ready to produce now was so obviously the required move to get us back in contention, I don't see any reasonable basis for being annoyed by it.

 

[Drainy]

Either way, he's not really shown that for us at all.

No he hasn't, but thats because we're utilising him inside more often, and when he is outside its usually because we were too slow in the build up and we're not getting him into a crossing position, he's moving the ball and positioning himself to make space for Bruno to cross from deep, or Dalot on overlapping run.

 

[Lash]

No he hasn't, but thats because we're utilising him inside more often, and when he is outside its usually because we were too slow in the build up and we're not getting him into a crossing position, he's moving the ball and positioning himself to make space for Bruno to cross from deep, or Dalot on overlapping run.

Which is kind of to my overarching point with this squad, all seems a bit mish mash on utilisation of our players. Or at least, we're seemingly always one profile away from playing the way we want - be it an overlapping FB, physical midfielder, aerial dominant defender, etc.

 

[Drainy]

Which is kind of to my overarching point with this squad, all seems a bit mish mash on utilisation of our players. Or at least, we're seemingly always one profile away from playing the way we want - be it an overlapping FB, physical midfielder, aerial dominant defender, etc.

Not really. What if Bruno gets injured or leaves/retires?

Then Mbeumo gets into that position while the 10 pushes to the line and creates space and we see the crossing quality he had at Brentford. At least if/ when his form comes back.

I'm sure we'd see more rotation between the two in crossing, if Bruno wasn't Bruno and just a freak at production.

 

[quadrant]

Very content with the work he's done so far. Given we more or less needed an entirely new team when Ineos took over, and bearing in mind that the senior management team only arrived very close to their first transfer window, there's been an entirely sensible approach to squad building both windows.

This season we got Sesko, Cunha, Mbeumo and Lemmens. A great return. Season before we got Yoro, Ugarte, Zirkzee, De Ligt, Mazraoui, Dorgu and Heaven. Not a bad window by any stretch. I know people like to moan about Ugarte and Zirkzee, but only having 2 out and out flops is actually way better than most clubs. When you consider that the season that before we bought Højlund, Mount, Onana, Amrabat, Bayındır, Jonny Evans and got Sergio Reguilon on loan, its clearly a big step up.

The main thing I'm happy about is that we've finally started being grown up about squad building and realise that a high floor is a prerequisite for success. You dont need 11 world class players in your first team squad. In practice you probably only need 4 out of your first team, spread across attack, midfield and defence. The majority of your squad just need to be high quality performers who can knock out routine wins in a league where most opposition you face are in the Bournemouth/Brentford bracket of quality. We certainly need to mix up the purchases in future years by including more players with higher potential. But if you can bring them into a team that's already consistent and effective, you maximise their chances of developing into elite players.

 

[Lash]

Not really. What if Bruno gets injured or leaves/retires?

Then Mbeumo gets into that position while the 10 pushes to the line and creates space and we see the crossing quality he had at Brentford. At least if/ when his form comes back.

I'm sure we'd see more rotation between the two in crossing, if Bruno wasn't Bruno and just a freak at production.

Quite frankly, we'd be absolutely fecked as it stands.

I personally can't see that based on what I've watched of Mbuemo this season, but would be good if that was the case.

 

[Lash]

Very content with the work he's done so far. Given we more or less needed an entirely new team when Ineos took over, and bearing in mind that the senior management team only arrived very close to their first transfer window, there's been an entirely sensible approach to squad building both windows.

This season we got Sesko, Cunha, Mbeumo and Lemmens. A great return. Season before we got Yoro, Ugarte, Zirkzee, De Ligt, Mazraoui, Dorgu and Heaven. Not a bad window by any stretch. I know people like to moan about Ugarte and Zirkzee, but only having 2 out and out flops is actually way better than most clubs. When you consider that the season that before we bought Højlund, Mount, Onana, Amrabat, Bayındır, Jonny Evans and got Sergio Reguilon on loan, its clearly a big step up.

The main thing I'm happy about is that we've finally started being grown up about squad building and realise that a high floor is a prerequisite for success. You dont need 11 world class players in your first team squad. In practice you probably only need 4 out of your first team, spread across attack, midfield and defence. The majority of your squad just need to be high quality performers who can knock out routine wins in a league where most opposition you face are in the Bournemouth/Brentford bracket of quality. We certainly need to mix up the purchases in future years by including more players with higher potential. But if you can bring them into a team that's already consistent and effective, you maximise their chances of developing into elite players.

Have we done that though? I think our approach works when you're not in Europe, but now we are that means you need a deeper squad, which I don't think we have at all. I think we all see the drop off in quality when our first choice attackers are out, or out of form and our back line seems to be decimated every season. We'll have to see how we approach the summer, but I worry about our depth and the briefings about only 2 midfielders seems light - considering our 2nd top scorer and best DM is leaving.

 

[Drainy]

Quite frankly, we'd be absolutely fecked as it stands.

I personally can't see that based on what I've watched of Mbuemo this season, but would be good if that was the case.

Yeah of course we'd be pretty fecked. Bruno is masking a lot of issues with the side, particularly the midfield structure in how we progress the ball, with his productivity, but also you would see players who are taking a more supportive role being less selfless and you would expect their productivity to increase