Javier Hernandez

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FlawlessThaw

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Not as stupid as blaming a half season on loan for his failure to progress at all in the last two years.

When young players go on loan and don't get games it's always a chicken and egg scenario. Are they not getting games because they're not good enough or are they not good enough because they're not getting games?

My money's on the former. If you look at the United youngsters who've gone on to be a success (either at United or elsewhere) they've all done really well out on loan.

Rossi is literally the only youngster I can think of who couldn't get games on loan but went on to do (relatively) well. He's the exception that proves the rule and even he had at least one really succesful loan spell before making it (relatively) big.
Erm..when did I say his failure to play for half a season set him back two years? Makes more sense though than one rash tackle setting back two years mind. I said him going on loan and not playing probably set him for ONE year and that's probably true given he is no closer to the first team than he was a year. Probably less so given Gibson and Cleverley are (wait for the exaggeration) miles ahead of him.

When players go on loan, for me a bit of luck comes into it. You need to have the manager willing to play someone that doesn't belong to them for short term gain at the expense of a long term benefit (ie play our kids instead of your own). Possebon didn't get much of chance at Braga, only playing one game.

I'm not for one second dismissing the loan system, just saying it doesn't work for every player irrespective of their talent. Someone said Rossi or whoever was the only player we had that he could recall that didn't get games out on loan, when that isn't true.
 

Raees

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Well I have only seen him play 6-8 games, and all of them were as a frontman, so it's limited how much one can really say about his ability to play on the wings.

But I'm fairly confident he wouldn't be nearly as effective and useful out there as he is centrally. Just as is the case with a lot of strikers. Why it'd be silly for Aguirre to put Hernandez on the wing when he already has players who are natural wingers or have played there the majority of their career.

On a related note, I thought Aguirre was bonkers for not starting Pablo Barrera on the wing.
Agreed, How Vela got into the team ahead of him I'll never know.

Hernadez despite being a speed merchant just didn't suit being a winger, even if it was as an unconventional one and he should just be compared to Franco in that mexican set up.

Just like he won't be displacing Nani or Valencia at United.
 

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Of course, this would mean dropping either Vela or Dos Santos, neither of whom seem to be rated on this place but both of whom started (almost?) all of Mexico's WC games.
Heskey started more games for England than Defoe did, does that mean he's a better player? Of course not.

Your "point" is only relative within the paradigm of the Mexico manager's subjective opinion of his players. It isn't in any way shape or form reflective on Manchester United.
 

42 euros

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Huh?

If sending players out on loan "achieves nothing in their development" why do so many great managers (eg. Wenger and Ferguson) so frequently send their most talented youngsters out on loan?

I know it's been a lean summer transfer-wise but the anxiety provoked by Hernandez possibly going on loan smacks of desperation. I hope the poor lad's development as a footballer is shown more patience when he does feature for us than most people are willing to give before he's even kicked a ball.
anxiety. desperation. poor lad. patience.
I think it's you who's getting a bit emotional there Pogue.

All I said is that I see no point in loaning the kid out yet until we have given him several weeks to settle in and enough chances to see if he can make it in the premiership. The kid shows a huge amount of potential but he has a hell of a lot still to prove. It seems to be you who is comparing him to the second coming of christ and then finding faults.
 

redfromcanada

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I would rather loan out others such as Diouf, Welbeck and possibly even Macheda over Hernandez. The coaches have a better idea of what they can do at this stage than Chicharito and need to assess the Mexican properly. I do feel that Hernandez provides what Owen does, that is a striker that can play on the shoulder of the defender. If Berbatov stays then I can see him being an excellent partner for Hernandez since their styles of play will mesh well, IMO.
 

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A "very good" World Cup? Really?
Yes, really. Why would you even try to argue against that?

He scored two goals, against France and Argentina, in the World Cup Finals, both excellently taken goals, and was one of Mexico's best players during the tournament. Besides looking sharp and showing us some impressive movement amongst other virtues

If we can't say Hernandez had a very good World Cup, then there's not many players we can say had
 

Brwned

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You don't think Hernandez has the attributes to play anywhere in a front three? I see absolutely no reason he couldn't have got games for Mexico in the same role that, for example, Villa played for Spain.

Of course, this would mean dropping either Vela or Dos Santos, neither of whom seem to be rated on this place but both of whom started (almost?) all of Mexico's WC games.
What makes you think Hernandez could play on the wing?

Should be pointed out that Dos Santos has played the vast majority of his football for club and country on the wing. Vela less so, but he's played manys-a-time on the wing for Arsenal(and Salamanca) and always looked comfortable there.

I know you think players who are good enough for United should be able to utilise their talents in more than one position, but Hernandez has only been trained at a relatively small club so you can hardly blame him for not being quite as versatile as his talents allow him.
 

dev1l

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i remember solskjaer doing well on the right wing (just before he got injured). I cannot see why hernandez should not do the same
 

amolbhatia50k

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Yes, really. Why would you even try to argue against that?

He scored two goals, against France and Argentina, in the World Cup Finals, both excellently taken goals, and was one of Mexico's best players during the tournament. Besides looking sharp and showing us some impressive movement amongst other virtues

If we can't say Hernandez had a very good World Cup, then there's not many players we can say had
I really don't see the point in playing down his exploits at the world cup. He did brilliantly. Scored against top teams with limited opportunities and not having much service at all. Whether he replicates that with us, god only knows, but we can't take away his world cup efforts.
 

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I know you think players who are good enough for United should be able to utilise their talents in more than one position, but Hernandez has only been trained at a relatively small club so you can hardly blame him for not being quite as versatile as his talents allow him.
He's not blaming Hernandez - his original point which has been jumped on now by loads of you was simply that because of his somewhat humble footballing background - the one you mention in your post - we should not expect him to break into the Man United first team this season as lots of people are suggesting here he will.

People seem to have completely forgotten the differences between South American leagues, international football and the PL - it's caught out many players and even managers before.

As SAF said in the video I posted, the WC gave Hernandez a profile but that's it really - it says fairly little about his ability to immediately make an impact on the PL and we should wait and see before we raise expectation levels.
 

Brwned

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Yes, really. Why would you even try to argue against that?

He scored two goals, against France and Argentina, in the World Cup Finals, both excellently taken goals, and was one of Mexico's best players during the tournament. Besides looking sharp and showing us some impressive movement amongst other virtues

If we can't say Hernandez had a very good World Cup, then there's not many players we can say had
He didn't even get two full games worth of football at the WC so it's hardly the most controversial thing to say!

United supporters aside, do you reckon anyone else would say Hernandez had a very good World Cup?
 

Brwned

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He's not blaming Hernandez - his original point which has been jumped on now by loads of you was simply that because of his somewhat humble footballing background - the one you mention in your post - we should not expect him to break into the Man United first team this season as lots of people are suggesting here he will.

People seem to have completely forgotten the differences between South American leagues, international football and the PL - it's caught out many players and even managers before.

As SAF said in the video I posted, the WC gave Hernandez a profile but that's it really - it says fairly little about his ability to immediately make an impact on the PL and we should wait and see before we raise expectation levels.
Yeah I had realised I could've worded that better, and I do agree with the main point that people are getting a bit ahead of themselves expecting him to start alongside Rooney.

Can understand why though, can't help but be excited by him.
 

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United supporters aside, do you reckon anyone else would say Hernandez had a very good World Cup?
Well the media must have thought he was better than just decent, considering how the WC has boosted his profile globally.
 

FlawlessThaw

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Yeah I had realised I could've worded that better, and I do agree with the main point that people are getting a bit ahead of themselves expecting him to start alongside Rooney.

Can understand why though, can't help but be excited by him.
Exactly which isn't as bad a thing as people are seemingly making out. I'd much rather people be excited by a signing after witnessing him play for a bit than the depressing attitude some people have towards Smalling or basing their opinions on nothing more than youtube clips.
 

amolbhatia50k

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He's not blaming Hernandez - his original point which has been jumped on now by loads of you was simply that because of his somewhat humble footballing background - the one you mention in your post - we should not expect him to break into the Man United first team this season as lots of people are suggesting here he will.

People seem to have completely forgotten the differences between South American leagues, international football and the PL - it's caught out many players and even managers before.

As SAF said in the video I posted, the WC gave Hernandez a profile but that's it really - it says fairly little about his ability to immediately make an impact on the PL and we should wait and see before we raise expectation levels.
It says fairly a lot about his ability, and that's what matters. He had a very good world cup, full stop. And it's not as if young haven't come to England and made an impact immediately. It is possible.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Well the media must have thought he was better than just decent, considering how the WC has boosted his profile globally.
The commentator said right after his goal against Argentina, that he's emerged as one of the bright new stars of the world cup. Most of the pundits on espnstar here seemed to think he'll be a star in the premier league at some point in the future.
 

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The commentator said right after his goal against Argentina, that he's emerged as one of the bright new stars of the world cup. Most of the pundits on espnstar here seemed to think he'll be a star in the premier league at some point in the future.
People have been raving about him here in Denmark as well after his WC performances - even before the brilliant goal against Argentina.

No one really thought much of his move to United before the WC.
 

amolbhatia50k

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People have been raving about him here in Denmark as well after his WC performances - even before the brilliant goal against Argentina.

No one really thought much of his move to United before the WC.
Which is fair enough really, he's earned the praise.
 

Brwned

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Well the media must have thought he was better than just decent, considering how the WC has boosted his profile globally.
He looked like one of the most promising young players at the tournament and he did very well in the little time he had - but that's just the thing, he had so little time. It's like saying Macheda had a very good season in 08/09!*Scored a great goal at a vital time, scored another and generally looked a threat whenever he got a chance.

Hyperbole.
 

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Don't think there's much wrong with the excitement and expectation itself, it's just the potential fallout from it if he doesn't hit the ground running that's the problem.
 

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Exactly which isn't as bad a thing as people are seemingly making out. I'd much rather people be excited by a signing after witnessing him play for a bit than the depressing attitude some people have towards Smalling or basing their opinions on nothing more than youtube clips.
Absolutely, I'm all for people being positive about any aspect of next season because there's a real lack of it on here this summer.

It's just a bit much that people are so ready to drop Berbatov out of the team for a(n undeniably talented) young player who still has it all to prove.
 

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I don't know why you're interpreting this as a slight on Hernandez, by the way. He did really well to force himself into the Mexican side and made the most of his chance when he got it. It's only an argument used against a hypothetical young player who is apparently ready to walk into our first XI of Manchester United. Such a player would have been expected to start all of Mexico's games, whether or not that meant a slight re-shuffle up top.
To be fair there's quite a few cases of top class players starting from the bench as youngsters at World Cup's when they clearly shouldn't be.

Michael Owen in 98, Messi in 06, Henry in 98 being the first examples to spring to mind.
 

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He looked like one of the most promising young players at the tournament and he did very well in the little time he had - but that's just the thing, he had so little time. It's like saying Macheda had a very good season in 08/09!*Scored a great goal at a vital time, scored another and generally looked a threat whenever he got a chance.

Hyperbole.
Macheda was on the pitch for 5% of the time during that season. Hernandez was on the pitch for 48%. Not really comparable in my eyes.
 

Pogue Mahone

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The commentator said right after his goal against Argentina, that he's emerged as one of the bright new stars of the world cup. Most of the pundits on espnstar here seemed to think he'll be a star in the premier league at some point in the future.
Not as bright as his team-mate, Dos Santos, apparently - who got nominated as one of the young players of the tournament, unlike Hernandez. Yeah, that Giovanni Dos Santos...

I don't know how my comments about him not being indispensible and/or ready to walk into our best eleven got twisted to imply I think he's not a player worth being excited about. Standard redcafe straw men really.

One more time, for the cheap seats. I am excited about us signing this bloke. It's not hard to see why we went in for him as he has obviously a lot of potential and I have complete faith in SAF when it comes to signing attacking players.

Where I seem to differ from a lot of you is that I think he had a decent world cup but nothing more than that and I've seen nothing yet to make me think he'll immediately be starting lots of games for us. In fact, I think most of us wouldn't have given him more than a passing glance if he hadn't signed for United (that includes the gushing pundit gimps on ITV and "espnstar", whatever the feck that is). He didn't even come across as the most impressive young player for Mexico, never mind one of the stars of the tournament. That accolade would go to their left-back or, as mentioned, Jimmy Two Saints.

Anyhoo, couldn't give a bollix if nobody shares this opinion. Such is life.
 

devilish

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You don't think Hernandez has the attributes to play anywhere in a front three? I see absolutely no reason he couldn't have got games for Mexico in the same role that, for example, Villa played for Spain.

Of course, this would mean dropping either Vela or Dos Santos, neither of whom seem to be rated on this place but both of whom started (almost?) all of Mexico's WC games.

I don't know why you're interpreting this as a slight on Hernandez, by the way. He did really well to force himself into the Mexican side and made the most of his chance when he got it. It's only an argument used against a hypothetical young player who is apparently ready to walk into our first XI of Manchester United. Such a player would have been expected to start all of Mexico's games, whether or not that meant a slight re-shuffle up top.
Hernandez is a striker and not a left/right sided forward. You're comparing a seasoned striker like Villa to a 21 yr old player.

BTW managers do make mistakes. Maradona left out treble winners Zanetti and Cambiasso to accomodate players like Jonas. World cup winner Lippi left out players like Cassano and Balotelli who were capable of creating some creativity to the side while Capello took Heskey (enough said). Anyway you can't really blame Mexico for relying on players with EPL experience rather then players who where fresh from the Mexican league. Lets face they don't have alot of players with such experience to compensate for the younger ones.
 
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