16-year old CB who made his U18s debut tonight. He's represented both Italy and England at youth level.
Jayden Ngwashi
- Thread starter top1whoisman
- Start date
PL2 debut yesterday.
Rare that we have a CB duos at an age group who are both England youth international (Ngwashi and Jacob Watson). I do secretly have hopes for them. Early days.
Ngwashi is the real deal, you can obviously never say for certain but a PL2 debut at his age playing CB is quite something.
When was the last time United produced a quality central defender ? And I am now thinking of a player that played regularly as a central defender (not like Brown, O'Shea and Gary Neville) who played 80-90% of their matches as fullbacks - and I also don't consider Pique as he was picked up from Spain and went back to Spain after 3-4 years.
I am trying hard to think here - but I can't think of a single one after the Busby-era
I am trying hard to think here - but I can't think of a single one after the Busby-era
Jonny Evans at his peak was an excellent central defender who was wanted by both Arsenal and Man City.
J Evans
Evans
There would also be a big argument for Tuanzebe had the injuries not done their thing. Talent wise he was right up there.
Evans is definitely the answer. I do think that Brown was a very good centre back too though. Shawcross a notch or two below those two. Tuanzebe is one who had the potential to become a really high level centre back.
You just beat me to it!
Wes Brown had a higher ceiling than Evans, he could have been as good as Ferdinand had injuries not curtailed his development. When he first started for United you could see the potential, despite his injuries he still had an excellent career. He’s a bit like Lesley King unfortunately, except he played for a team that actually won things.
I very much disagree, I think Evans was better on the ball and faster.
Started a European cup final I think
Forgot about Evans (!) - but I would still say he was pretty far away from being a top-top-defender. I think he had one season where he played regularly at United, the rest of the time he was a back-up defender. Don't get me wrong - he was good, but he was nowhere near the top defenders of the P.L-era.
But to give my thoughts on the Evans vs Brown-debate. It depends on what you want in a defender.
Evans: Pro: Good with the ball at his feet, Leadertype, Composed, Good in the air. Good positioning - Con: Not very quick - Solid more than a quality defender
Brown: Pro: Superb 1 vs 1. Very quick. Could play in several defensive positions - Con: Rash in tackles, Positioning not always great. Not a great passer of tha ball
But to give my thoughts on the Evans vs Brown-debate. It depends on what you want in a defender.
Evans: Pro: Good with the ball at his feet, Leadertype, Composed, Good in the air. Good positioning - Con: Not very quick - Solid more than a quality defender
Brown: Pro: Superb 1 vs 1. Very quick. Could play in several defensive positions - Con: Rash in tackles, Positioning not always great. Not a great passer of tha ball
Not true. Brown played at right back in 2007/08 when we won the league and champions league. He put in the ball for Ronaldo’s goal in the final. He was faster than Evans.
Agreed. Brown was my favourite player for a while growing up, despite how little we got to see of him at his best. The fact he was still so good despite all the injuries, and playing not in his natural position speaks volumes.
Of course the demands on defenders were very different in his era. I'd argue he'd be up there with the best in terms of pure defensive work these days, but with the ball at his feet he'd be nowhere near.
Man we had some beastly defenders back then.
When was the last time a top side outside of Italy produced a quality central defender? There is the kid at Barcelona at the moment, but most are recruited from elsewhere. None of the big PL clubs have HG CBs
That proves nothing. This was my favourite period of football and still I know the limits, brown was slow and fairly clumsy, Evans has been very good.
Brown never lacked pace.
Is the U21 debut at 16 due to lack of alternatives or a genuine belief in Nwgashi? Hopefully the latter!
Well - I didn't exactly mean world-class defenders, but while most of our competitors have produced 1-2 player of top Premier League class or at least 3-4-5 very good ones - we have had 1 in 50 years. What makes it extra strange is because we probably produce 2-3 times more quality players from our ranks than all of these teams - but still we cant produce central defenders.
The ones I can think of from Liverpool, City, Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea. These are players that played regularly in the Premier League / First Division (or one of the best foreign leagues) from roughly 1970 onwards
Liverpool : Carragher, Matteo, Ablett, Thompson
Spurs: King, Campbell
Arsenal: O'Leary, Adams, Keown
Chelsea: Terry, Tomori, Guehi, Christensen
City: Have produced a ton of centre-backs of various quality - but to name a few Harwood-Bellis, Garcia, Onouha, Mee, Taggart, Coleman, Tosin, Redmond, Boyata, Denayer - I mean not all of these are great, but it's stilll better than what we have produced.
You genuinely think that producing Matteo and Ablett is better than producing Evans, O'Shea and Wes Brown?
And why are we naming random passable centre backs that City have produced but not anyone else? James Chester, Tuanzebe, Shawcross for example have had pretty good careers, how's it different?
I'm struggling to see the point of these comparisons.
As I wrote in my initial post - O'Shea, Neville and Brown played 90% of their careers as full-backs - and I wanted to look at centre-backs. Must admit I forgot about Shawcross and Chester, Tuanzebe but especially Chester I wont unclude as he has hardly played in the P.L until this season.
But my initial point stand - we have been poor at producing decent centre-backs
There's also Michael Keane.
He's been a regular PL player for years and played 12 times for England.
Brown did not play 90% of his career as a fullback. I'd dare say that he actually played more at centre back.
Wes Brown was more of a CB than a full back. Granted he had his most consistent season playing RB - but I imagine the stats are far more near 50/50 than 90/10 and that’s just his United career.
Transfermarkt (which may not be 100% accurate) has Brown as having played 233 times at CB compared to 88 at RB.
O'Shea is down as 302 CB & 98 RB.
O'Shea is down as 302 CB & 98 RB.
Higginbotham, Wilson, McShane, Cathcart, and Spector all had lengthy Premier League careers as well.
No. We’re actually pretty good at developing centre backs who’re good enough to play in the PL.
We just deem them not good enough for us and sign players who’re further down in their development cycle because we couldn’t afford to wait for them to become good enough.
And Brown is a CB. He just played at RB for a season or two because Nev was injured and we had Rio and Vidic playing.
Wes Brown was exceptional and could have reached close to Rio's level had he not been made of glass.
Perhaps you shouldn't keep repeating nonsense about Wes Brown? Vast majority of his games throughout his career were at CB. O'Shea also played a lot at CB so to pretend he wasn't a CB is strange. Michael Keane is another CB I might mention if you want PL experience, although perhaps he's a full back in your eyes too since that's where he used to play in the U18s?
I do agree we haven't produced that many good centre backs, but given the other underwhelming names on your list perhaps it's not as easy as it looks. Good news is it looks like our academy centre backs are better than they've been for a while so we might be able to improve our record soon.
As others have pointed out above, you are wrong in characterizing Brown as a full-back. He started as a CB in United. Don't forget, Fergie believed so much in Brown's potential as a CB that he was willing to let go of the previously dominant Jaap Stam.
You must have been pretty young, I take it, or memory plays tricks. Wes Brown was indeed very fast, quick and had good technique when he he came through, at CB. He was like an 18 year old Ronny Johnsen and looked like he was going to be a lynchpin for our defense for years. He was unlucky with injuries the early years, and lost both speed and development, and ended up in the back of the queue for CB spots. Even so, he was ttechnically sound enough to nail down the RB spot for a good while when we were at the height of our powers. But he never got close to that level of his first year/s talent wise.
I think you can find some of Ferguson’s statements about him to a similar tune.
Talk about derailing a thread
He was still quick when he played RB though, hence performing so well there. It was only in his 30s that he started to look cumbersome as injuries continued to affect him more and more.
Well I started really getting into football around 2007/8, only watched casually before that. Then religiously after.
37 responses in this thread. 3 of which mention the player in the OP
You should probably defer to others opinions on Wes Brown then, rather than going against posters who seemingly know what they are talking about. Not meant to be spiky, it just looks odd retorting to two posters who make very straighforward observations, implying they don’t know what they’re talking about because you has been there and seen that, and it turns out you have mainly seen his swansong years when he was 30 plus and ruined by injuries.
I’m a bit older than many and remember very well when he broke into the team at 18 in 1998. He was the best kid I’d seen at CB until then, and got 21 games for the treble winners. He was indeed very, very fast, great jump, strong for his age, calm with the ball and good control. He got a terrible injury at 19, and the year after he lost in it’s entirety. When he came back, he was still a good prospect, but had lost some speed and agility, and was a bit more unsure of himself. Still, he was much, much faster than Evans ever were, and most of us thought him and Ferdinand (when he came) were going to rule the CB spots for years. Niggling injuries now and then opened the path for Nemanja Vidic, who is now a club legend, and it says enough about Brown’s level that he managed to transform into from CB to RB at 28 so well that he was practically everpresent in the possibly best defence in the world at the time (Brown Ferdinand Vidic Evra) until injured badly again in 2008 at 29. He was never the same after that injury, losing speed and agility, and never adapting to his new physical limitations.
He looks like a sleek striker rather than a CB.
My pathetic effort to un-derail the thread.