Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

[Kaos]

I see the astroturfers are out in force.

Please. This anti war activist invited two members of the IRA to Parliament two weeks after they attempted to assassinate the British PM. If he'd wanted to support peaceful republicanism, which many others honourably did, he'd have supported the SDLP.

You realise the British government ultimately did the same thing, which eventually led to a path of peace.

That must be why we see this noble peacemaker so often talking to violent people whose causes he disagrees with (ie never).

Who would you have him speak to? The Israeli government? I'm sure they'd love to entertain a Western politician who takes issue with their racist and colonialist actions, and why would they if they already have the current government giving them carte blanche to do as they please. We don't need to hear the Israeli perspective because its already echoed by our politicians and much of the media, their perspective is hardly one that lacks any voice.

" In 2014, Jeremy Corbyn was pictured holding a wreath in front of a plaque commemorating three Palestinians – including Salah Khalaf, who Israel says was linked to the 1972 Munich massacre. In a later interview, Mr Corbyn said that he did lay “a wreath in memory of all those who have died”. According to a Daily Mail reporter who visited the cemetery, the available photos of Mr Corbyn holding a wreath show him 15 yards away from the memorial plaque for the 1985 victims – but directly in front of the plaque for Salah Khalaf and others.

"Speaking to Channel 4 News on Tuesday, Mr Corbyn’s language seemed to suggest that Salah Khalaf, an alleged founder of Black Deptember, was amongst those for whom he laid a memorial wreath." Source - Channel 4.

Again, he was at the memorial site for the victims of the 1985 bombing along with other dignitaries(the purpose of his visit), yes the terrorists in question were also buried there, but unlike the Daily Mail's sensationalist take on it, he wasn't there to honour them:

Also on 15 August 2018 the BBC News filmed a report from inside the Hamman Chott Cemetery, showing where Corbyn would have likely stood within the designated area where all dignitaries typically stand on an annual basis to remember those who were killed in the Israel airstrike in 1985 and for senior members of the Palestine Liberation Organization, under the small covered area of the enclosed Palestinian section of the cemetery, which also covers the graves of Bseiso and Khalaf.

Shall we see what the EHRC says before getting too confident about that?

Yes we've all seen what they've said. Apparently making 'disproportionate' criticisms towards the state of Israel constitutes objective anti-semitism, but making direct insults aimed at ethnic minorities isn't. You have Boris' own adviser making dog-whistling anti-semitic insinuations in his recent blog posts (to deafening silence as expected), and yet you're still firmly clutching at straws devoid of any context to dignify this smear job. @Fluctuation0161 has already given you dozens of examples which completely dismiss any notion of him holding bigoted views, yet you're opting to ignore them while clinging to the same exhausted tropes.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

No response to my previous post @nickm ?

Maybe you are not interested in discussion. Only perpetuating smears.

 

[Kaos]

No response to my previous post @nickm ?

Maybe you are not interested in discussion. Only perpetuating smears.

Don't hold your breath. I doubt he even believes the smears.

 

[sun_tzu]

Yes we've all seen what they've said. Apparently making 'disproportionate' criticisms towards the state of Israel constitutes objective anti-semitism,

For the EHRC to launch a formal investigation (look it up if you can be bothered) they need to have seen evidence of criminal discrimination by the organisation
They also have to believe that it is not an isolated incident and the organisation has not taken sufficient steps to solve this, and furthermore that not only is a successful prosecution likely on the evidence they have seen but also to pursue it is in the public interest.
Only at that point do they start the formal process to see just how bad it really is
Previous examples of politcal parties having reached that evidence level are the BNP oh and that it they are the only other political party to have a formal investigation besides the current one into Labour
so yeah thats a little more than you suggest
the EHRC will have Jezbollah and his antisemitic buddies on toast if even 1% of whats been reported to date is true (and rightly so)... Im looking forward to the report and subsequent prosecutions

 

[nickm]

No response to my previous post @nickm ?

Maybe you are not interested in discussion. Only perpetuating smears.

I haven't had time to wade thru your 40 point post, tbh. But I'm already loving number 1, which says Corbyn can't be antisemitic because his mum wasn't (conveniently forgetting Corbyn's brother's views on Jews).

 

[sun_tzu]

Apparently the BBC are biased for saying Israel has the right to exist .... according to Jezbollah

He said: 'I think there is a bias [in the BBC] towards saying that Israel is a democracy in the Middle East, that Israel has a right to exist, Israel has its security concerns.'

From one of his paid giggs for Iranian State TV
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ays-BBC-biased-saying-Israel-right-exist.html
https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/prev...721065969/636x382_MP4_2967318532721065969.mp4

 

[Lennon7]

Swear Rachel Riley used to support Labour? Corbyn shouldn’t be Labour leader in my opinion but the policies they’re proposing are the best for this country. And he’s not anti-Semitic this is getting bonkers now

 

[DJ Jeff]

Apparently the BBC are biased for saying Israel has the right to exist .... according to Jezbollah

From one of his paid giggs for Iranian State TV
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ays-BBC-biased-saying-Israel-right-exist.html
https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/prev...721065969/636x382_MP4_2967318532721065969.mp4

what's wrong with questioning the right to existence of a squatter state

 

[nickm]

what's wrong with questioning the right to existence of a squatter state

Because it's a favourite pastime of antisemites.

 

[DJ Jeff]

Because it's a favourite pastime of antisemites.

But it is a state founded on land literally stolen from indigenous peoples

 

[Cassidy]

But it is a state founded on land literally stolen from indigenous peoples

Like USA or Australia?

Seriously though I don't think its anti semitic to question it, but these the times we living in now. You cannot question those things without that smear unfortunately
I wonder if the opposite is anti Palestine...

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I haven't had time to wade thru your 40 point post, tbh. But I'm already loving number 1, which says Corbyn can't be antisemitic because his mum wasn't (conveniently forgetting Corbyn's brother's views on Jews).

Try numbers 2 - 40. You might learn something instead of simply regurgitating your old posts. You seem to have plenty of time for that.

 

[nickm]

Try numbers 2 - 40. You might learn something instead of simply regurgitating your old posts. You seem to have plenty of time for that.

Someone asked why Jews might not trust Corbyn. I answered, including what some prominent jews have themselves said. I am glad you managed to dig up in response, what's mostly a bunch of parliamentary motion based virtue signalling which must have taken him around 10 minutes in total to sign across his career. It's like signing a petition or tweeting support. I'm sure even Boris Johnson, who everyone thinks is a racist, must have signed a few, albeit probably by accident.

Now look - I am not saying Corbyn is an anti semite. Many who know him well, including those on the opposite side of the political divide, say he isn't. BUT I do think he's shown a lack of sensitivity, he hasn't listened to jewish complaints as he might have listened if it was another ethnic group, he has a history of dubious relationships which leaves him open to the charge, and I suspect he doesn't see jews as oppressed minorities in the same way as he does other groups. Plus he's not very good at leadership. Add that up and that's how you get this sense of Corbyn being accused of anti semitism. But even if he isn't, all those other things are still valid criticisms of his suitability to be PM.

 

[nickm]

You realise the British government ultimately did the same thing, which eventually led to a path of peace.

Corbyn wasn't involved in the peace process and he wasn't an honest broker in any 'path to peace'. And the British Government is the British Government. Who else is going to represent Britain in peace talks to end a war? I just don't get this line of reasoning. He believed in Sinn Fein's cause, and that's why he was close to them.

Who would you have him speak to? The Israeli government? I'm sure they'd love to entertain a Western politician who takes issue with their racist and colonialist actions, and why would they if they already have the current government giving them carte blanche to do as they please. We don't need to hear the Israeli perspective because its already echoed by our politicians and much of the media, their perspective is hardly one that lacks any voice.

If he was a genuine honest broker, then yes he would meet with all sides. You can't only listen to one side in a conflict if you want to end it. He absolutely should have spoken to the Israelis. He should have spoken to the Irish Loyalists. He was not interested in understanding their points of view. Genuine peacemakers do try to understand all points of view (even if they don't agree with them).

Yes we've all seen what they've said. Apparently making 'disproportionate' criticisms towards the state of Israel constitutes objective anti-semitism, but making direct insults aimed at ethnic minorities isn't. You have Boris' own adviser making dog-whistling anti-semitic insinuations in his recent blog posts (to deafening silence as expected), and yet you're still firmly clutching at straws devoid of any context to dignify this smear job. @Fluctuation0161 has already given you dozens of examples which completely dismiss any notion of him holding bigoted views, yet you're opting to ignore them while clinging to the same exhausted tropes.

Boris shouldn't be PM either. He's even worse than Corbyn. But this is a thread about Corbyn.

 

[NWRed]

But it is a state founded on land literally stolen from indigenous peoples

In all seriousness, what land wasn't "stolen" from it's previous occupiers.

If you go back far enough the existence of the Muslim faith is due to military conquest of North Africa and Spain, where exactly do you draw the line?

The state of Israel was established after years of struggle with the agreement of the international community, they have then had to fight to maintain their independence in the 70 years since then. It's definitely legitimate to question whether their methods have become cruel, whether they have become indifferent to the suffering of others or what a just and lasting solution should look like (one state/two states etc), as many do within Israel, but to question Israel's right to exist is not legitimate at all so must be classed as antisemitic.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Thought Jews had been in Israel for millennia?

 

[Conor]

In all seriousness, what land wasn't "stolen" from it's previous occupiers.

If you go back far enough the existence of the Muslim faith is due to military conquest of North Africa and Spain, where exactly do you draw the line?

The state of Israel was established after years of struggle with the agreement of the international community, they have then had to fight to maintain their independence in the 70 years since then. It's definitely legitimate to question whether their methods have become cruel, whether they have become indifferent to the suffering of others or what a just and lasting solution should look like (one state/two states etc), as many do within Israel, but to question Israel's right to exist is not legitimate at all so must be classed as antisemitic.

Questioning anything related to Israel can never, in any way, be classed as antisemitic. Israel and the religion of Judaism are not the same thing.

 

[esmufc07]

Thought Jews had been in Israel for millennia?

My understanding is they lived in what was then Judea before the Romans removed them and renamed the area. Could be wrong though. @2cents will be able to give an answer I’m sure.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

It's definitely legitimate to question whether their methods have become cruel, whether they have become indifferent to the suffering of others or what a just and lasting solution should look like (one state/two states etc), as many do within Israel, but to question Israel's right to exist is not legitimate at all so must be classed as antisemitic.

I don't think that's what Corbyn is doing in that clip. Criticism of Israel "being a democracy", having a "right to exist" and having "security concerns" in a vacuum is one thing, but criticising the BBC for using them as the primary lens through which the violence and oppression visited on Palestinians is viewed quite another.

 

[Synco]

Questioning anything related to Israel can never, in any way, be classed as antisemitic.

This is so obviously false that I'm not even sure if responding with the most blatant counterexamples of Nazis and Islamists would be appropriate. (Not that the issue stops there.)

Israel and the religion of Judaism are not the same thing.

Obviously. No Jewish person or institution ever was the same thing as the religion of Judaism. That doesn't mean they can't be targeted for being Jewish.

 

[Sassy Colin]

But it is a state founded on land literally stolen from indigenous peoples

Half the countries in the World are made up. As previously mentioned, Australia, New Zealand, the whole of the Americas. The greater part of Africa. etc, etc

Try looking at the reasons Israel was formed in the first place, which was for far better objectives than any of the above, which were literally stolen for no other reason than for exploiting the indigenous population.

 

[NWRed]

I don't think that's what Corbyn is doing in that clip. Criticism of Israel "being a democracy", having a "right to exist" and having "security concerns" in a vacuum is one thing, but criticising the BBC for using them as the primary lens through which the violence and oppression visited on Palestinians is viewed quite another.

Although the clip is clearly cut so as to remove the context, you are going along way to give Corbyn the benefit of the doubt. It would still be difficut to justify what he's saying in any context.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Although the clip is clearly cut so as to remove the context, you are going along way to give Corbyn the benefit of the doubt. It would still be difficut to justify what he's saying in any context.

Made up context: The democratically elected leadership of Israel re-emphasised its right to exist yesterday in a security operation which saw several suspected Hamas operatives eliminated, along with their immediate families.

 

[Super Hans]

What’s controversial about what Corbyn is saying? First of all, he is merely listing components of what he perceives as the BBC pushing a pro-Israel narrative.

It’s unclear that he is even questioning the talking points.

All that said, it’s hardly beyond the pale to question Israel’s credentials as a democracy. And “right to exist” is not something that exists in international law. No state has the “right to exist”. Which explains why states appear and disappear all the time.

 

[Conor]

This is so obviously false that I'm not even sure if responding with the most blatant counterexamples of Nazis and Islamists would be appropriate. (Not that the issue stops there.)

Obviously. No Jewish person or institution ever was the same thing as the religion of Judaism. That doesn't mean they can't be targeted for being Jewish.

Clearly you can criticise Israel in an antisemitic manner, but many people(not antisemites) simply questioning things related to Israel in isolation is constantly framed as antisemitism, which I think is ridiculous. My post was probably missing some detail.

 

[2cents]

My understanding is they lived in what was then Judea before the Romans removed them and renamed the area. Could be wrong though. @2cents will be able to give an answer I’m sure.

I’m not really any kind of authority on Jewish history. But in any case, from Abraham to Netanyahu it is all highly contested and politicized, so while there’s certainly an interesting discussion to be had, it’s probably best left for a different thread.

 

[sun_tzu]

So here is the redacted Jewish labour movements submission to the ehrc

https://www.scribd.com/document/438372031/Redacted-JLM-Closing-Submission-to-the-EHRC

It's pretty damming stuff

70 testimonies of current and former labour party officials

And an additional 100 testimonies from members who have experienced or witnessed antisemitism at party meetings

I guess the Corbyn fanatics will dismiss this as Zionist propaganda... But if this is indicative of the evidence the ehrc have then that report is going to be pretty bad for labour and frankly if it's true the party and it's leadership should be nowhere close to public office

 

[nickm]

So here is the redacted Jewish labour movements submission to the ehrc

https://www.scribd.com/document/438372031/Redacted-JLM-Closing-Submission-to-the-EHRC

It's pretty damming stuff

70 testimonies of current and former labour party officials

And an additional 100 testimonies from members who have experienced or witnessed antisemitism at party meetings

I guess the Corbyn fanatics will dismiss this as Zionist propaganda... But if this is indicative of the evidence the ehrc have then that report is going to be pretty bad for labour and frankly if it's true the party and it's leadership should be nowhere close to public office

Choice excerpts on the thread here. It is pretty bad.

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[esmufc07]

Scanned the first 20 or so pages, will give it a proper read later. Damning from what I've seen, some real troubling stuff in there. Fully expect the usual people to dismiss it however.

 

[Drifter]

If Corbyn steps down ,you watch all this concern about anti-semitism in the Labour Party disappear .

 

[Kaos]

If Corbyn steps down ,you watch all this concern about anti-semitism in the Labour Party disappear .

I‘m sure the usual suspects here will continue to crusade against Anti-semitism and all forms of bigotry after the election.

 

[2cents]

How does the EHRC investigation work? Presumably this is just one body of evidence among many that will be need to be evaluated independently?

 

[Drifter]

I‘m sure the usual suspects here will continue to crusade against Anti-semitism and all forms of bigotry after the election.

I was talking about the media and disgruntled labour party members.

 

[sun_tzu]

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[Kentonio]

Ouch. Don't see how they deal with this so close to the election. Absolutely brutal report.

 

[Synco]

(Taken from the other thread)

That report is extremely damning but what's worse is some of the reaction from Labour supporters still trying to downplay it or (worse again) outright accusing those in the report of lying.

These immediate counterattacks are extremely disturbing, but sadly not surprising at all. In the end, this kind of general atmosphere makes those things in the report possible.

 

[nickm]

Political correspondent from Sky went to Birmingham to see what people on the ground were saying. Interesting read and again underlined the damage Corbyn does to Labours electoral chances.

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[Super Hans]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The establishment want people to believe this man hates Jews. <a href="https://t.co/zaj6dpx7dy">pic.twitter.com/zaj6dpx7dy</a></p>&mdash; Scott Jackson (@scottjunglist1) <a href="

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">December 3, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Bastian]

If Corbyn steps down ,you watch all this concern about anti-semitism in the Labour Party disappear .

I would expect that too. If it's back to neo-liberalism the status quo is preserved.

 

[sun_tzu]

If Corbyn steps down ,you watch all this concern about anti-semitism in the Labour Party disappear .

Not a chance
If the ehrc report is as bad as the Jewish labour movement document suggests this is going to go on for a while
It might make sense to keep Corbyn round long enough to chuck him under the bus when it gets published
But there will be potential prosecutions ... Court cases and ultimately potentially huge claims and financial reprocussions

It could even potentially bankrupt labour
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...estigation-corbyn-executive-a9153561.html?amp

I certainly don't think it disappears when Corbyn finally goes