Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

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Anyone else read Left Out yet? I though @sun_tzu would have it on preorder. The story of how Labour fell apart, mostly the 2017 to 2019 period. Part interesting reminder of how it all unfolded, with additional back story we didn't know at the time, part comedy due to the rank incompetence of some of those in the Corbyn project.

Review, Link
Sounds like an incredibly flawed book from that review.

I’m not quite sure who the audience is for this, everyone knows it was shambolic - but a book with less than credible sources seems unnecessary.
 

EwanI Ted

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Sounds like an incredibly flawed book from that review.

I’m not quite sure who the audience is for this, everyone knows it was shambolic - but a book with less than credible sources seems unnecessary.
All political diaries are biased because there was no objective observer in the room at the time. They're all based on the personal recollections of people who were there, and whoever those people are, they have their own interpretation on what happened. Sometimes two people in the same room think two different things happened. This is true for basically every book on politics. Doesn't mean there's no value in the genre.

As for who its for - anyone interested in Labour.
 
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All political diaries are biased because there was no objective observer in the room at the time. They're all based on the personal recollections of people who were there, and whoever those people are, they have their own interpretation on what happened. Sometimes two people in the same room think two different things happened. This is true for basically every book on politics. Doesn't mean there's no value in the genre.

As for who its for - anyone interested in Labour.
Did you read the review? It’s stating the obvious that people have different recollections of events, I’m not arguing that.

“Left Out’s authors don’t allow interviewees to take responsibility for recounting events accurately but prefer to tell the story themselves. This means we can’t judge as readers whether we trust their sources. The choice has already led to some controversies.”

I still don’t see who the audience is, and disagree that it’s for anyone who is interested in Labour - which implies a large audience. I imagine this will sell very poorly. It doesn’t appear particularly insightful.
 

EwanI Ted

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Did you read the review? It’s stating the obvious that people have different recollections of events, I’m not arguing that.

“Left Out’s authors don’t allow interviewees to take responsibility for recounting events accurately but prefer to tell the story themselves. This means we can’t judge as readers whether we trust their sources. The choice has already led to some controversies.”

I still don’t see who the audience is, and disagree that it’s for anyone who is interested in Labour - which implies a large audience. I imagine this will sell very poorly. It doesn’t appear particularly insightful.
Yes, I've read the review that I linked. I've also read the book itself. I chose the LabourList review to share to because I thought it was kind of balanced. It also describes the book as a "must-read... for any Labour supporter who wants to know more about what went on behind the scenes". Quite why you're writing off a book you haven't read I've no idea.
 
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Yes, I've read the review that I linked. I've also read the book itself. I chose the LabourList review to share to because I thought it was kind of balanced. It also describes the book as a "must-read... for any Labour supporter who wants to know more about what went on behind the scenes". Quite why you're writing off a book you haven't read I've no idea.
Let’s see how many copies it sells then.

Do labour supporters want to know more about what went on?

Maybe they do, would have been interesting to hear your viewpoint on the book. It wasn’t clear you had read it from your first post.
 

Ubik

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Anyone else read Left Out yet? I though @sun_tzu would have it on preorder. The story of how Labour fell apart, mostly the 2017 to 2019 period. Part interesting reminder of how it all unfolded, with additional back story we didn't know at the time, part comedy due to the rank incompetence of some of those in the Corbyn project.

Review, Link
It's a decent read, most of the anecdotes can be taken with pinches of salt (as Rodgers said, the Costa one seemed to stretch credulity to breaking point) but the extent to which the Corbyn/McDonnell relationship broke down was the most interesting part to me, in addition to the Fisher/Milne conflict. Lavery is good comic relief.
 

EwanI Ted

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It's a decent read, most of the anecdotes can be taken with pinches of salt (as Rodgers said, the Costa one seemed to stretch credulity to breaking point) but the extent to which the Corbyn/McDonnell relationship broke down was the most interesting part to me, in addition to the Fisher/Milne conflict. Lavery is good comic relief.
I actually thought Corbyn and McDonnell came out relatively well. Corbyn's main problem was not wanting to make decisions or do leadership, but that was already well known. Beyond a few new humorous anecdotes I don't think there was anything there that changed perceptions. McDonnell if anything went up in my (admittedly low) estimation of him. Every time Corbyn's team shot itself in the foot, he seemed to be pushing in the right direction. Milne and Murphy come across as the real culprits. The ghouls of the old Labour right come across terribly, especially McNicol and Tom Watson.
 

BobbyManc

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Anyone else read Left Out yet? I though @sun_tzu would have it on preorder. The story of how Labour fell apart, mostly the 2017 to 2019 period. Part interesting reminder of how it all unfolded, with additional back story we didn't know at the time, part comedy due to the rank incompetence of some of those in the Corbyn project.

Review, Link
It’s already had two of the stories it’s pushed to promote it debunked so I’m not sure it’s got a huge deal of credibility to be honest.
 

BobbyManc

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Id recommend reading it before deciding for yourself.
All I said was I don’t believe the book has much credibility. Given two stories it wanted to push were quickly falsified, that’s a perfectly fair comment independent of whether or not I bother to read it. I’ve seen several excerpts and I’m sure it has some value but clearly the authors have been lax in checking the veracity of at least some of what they were told. It would have only needed basic journalism to make some enquiries about information received, evidently they didn’t bother.
 

Ubik

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Depressingly true.
This seems a pretty gratuitous misreading of what they're talking about, which is that the government would be dumb to do it because it would allow them to be attacked.
 

Fluctuation0161

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Depressingly true.
Yep. It was just another excuse to attack the previous leadership. Ultimately that was the aim of the centrists in the Labour party, remove Corbyn at all costs. Not, try to influence the best outcome for the people in the country.
 

EwanI Ted

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All I said was I don’t believe the book has much credibility. Given two stories it wanted to push were quickly falsified, that’s a perfectly fair comment independent of whether or not I bother to read it. I’ve seen several excerpts and I’m sure it has some value but clearly the authors have been lax in checking the veracity of at least some of what they were told. It would have only needed basic journalism to make some enquiries about information received, evidently they didn’t bother.
Its the personal recollections of people who were there. No doubt that was sometimes misinterpreted, biased or wrong. This is true of all biographies and political diaries. Its no reason to dismiss the genre outright.
 

BobbyManc

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This seems a pretty gratuitous misreading of what they're talking about, which is that the government would be dumb to do it because it would allow them to be attacked.
The point is Dunt agreed with the person quoted that Starmer is right to be cautious in opposing Brexit (unless it’s no deal), when he’s forged his career out of feverishly opposing Brexit since the referendum to scathingly condemn Corbyn for the past four years. Now all of a sudden the big brained centrist sees the need for pragmatism and caution. Laughable.
 

Sweet Square

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This isn't the reason why Labour lost the election but it is the reason why the guardian writers are shite.

theory

:lol:
 

Sweet Square

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some of the commentators and political pundits and writers make it up as they go along.
Pretty much. Williams takes about the need to bring down the government(And not doing so would be unpatriotic, whatever that means)yet doesn't offering any way to do this. It just her complaining in a national newspaper.


A lot of them imo see politics as a real life tv show, politicians are just characters who come and go,while tricking the stupid general public. The pundits see it as their to review each new episode or plot twist afterwards. It's a bizarre and depressing way to look at politics but hey it pays the bills!
 

DavidDeSchmikes

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Pretty much. Williams takes about the need to bring down the government(And not doing so would be unpatriotic, whatever that means)yet doesn't offering any way to do this. It just her complaining in a national newspaper.


A lot of them imo see politics as a real life tv show, politicians are just characters who come and go,while tricking the stupid general public. The pundits see it as their to review each new episode or plot twist afterwards. It's a bizarre and depressing way to look at politics but hey it pays the bills!
Agree with this.

 

ThierryHenry

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What are the falsified stories from Left Out? My copy hasn't been delivered yet but I'm quite looking forward to it.
 

Ubik

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What are the falsified stories from Left Out? My copy hasn't been delivered yet but I'm quite looking forward to it.
One's about a campaign stop making oatcakes and how Corbyn's wife was supposed to have behaved (yes it's that interesting), the other was Corbyn thinking that the Prime Minister of Portugal had tabled an amendment in the Commons.

Karie Murphy laying into McDonnell is real and delicious though.
 

ThierryHenry

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One's about a campaign stop making oatcakes and how Corbyn's wife was supposed to have behaved (yes it's that interesting), the other was Corbyn thinking that the Prime Minister of Portugal had tabled an amendment in the Commons.

Karie Murphy laying into McDonnell is real and delicious though.
I've read it now. Obviously unsurprising that some are using those stories against it - though I'm still not sure why the oatcake story would have been made up by anyone? As you say it's an unintersting, incredibly incidental anecdote in the book.

I thought Left Out was excellent. A great insight into what it feels like to be inside a political movement like this, and how difficult they must be to run, given conflicting egos, incentives and philosophies between the key figures within such a movement. While LOTO was clearly a dysfunctional and poorly run organisation (Milne appears to deserve a large chunk of the blame here), it feels like it potentially could have worked if it was topped with decisive and clear leadership. To that end, Corbyn's aversion to decision making and conflict was remarkable, and evidence that he clearly wasn't fit to manage any size of organisation, let alone a country. It's a shame the incompetence argument never cut through during his years in power - it seemed obvious by 2016, but the campaign in '17 was enough to keep him going for another two and a half years. Definitely an argument that the PLP (i.e. those who needs to work with and know the potential leader best) should be given more power, not less, even if that's at the cost of the enthusiasm of the membership.

In summary, I guess JC proved himself as a good campaigner, but a horrible leader. Starmer looks likely to be the other way around, and I'd say it's too early to tell if that's going to become too much of an over-correction.
 

ThierryHenry

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Also, McDonnell was obviously a key source and therefore played his part in shaping this narrative, but I thought he came across very well. Clearly the rational, logical thinker of the bunch. He probably had too much baggage for the role, and wouldn't have garnered the same affection that Corbyn did, but he would have made for a much better leader.
 

Untied

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I've read it now. Obviously unsurprising that some are using those stories against it - though I'm still not sure why the oatcake story would have been made up by anyone? As you say it's an unintersting, incredibly incidental anecdote in the book.

I thought Left Out was excellent. A great insight into what it feels like to be inside a political movement like this, and how difficult they must be to run, given conflicting egos, incentives and philosophies between the key figures within such a movement. While LOTO was clearly a dysfunctional and poorly run organisation (Milne appears to deserve a large chunk of the blame here), it feels like it potentially could have worked if it was topped with decisive and clear leadership. To that end, Corbyn's aversion to decision making and conflict was remarkable, and evidence that he clearly wasn't fit to manage any size of organisation, let alone a country. It's a shame the incompetence argument never cut through during his years in power - it seemed obvious by 2016, but the campaign in '17 was enough to keep him going for another two and a half years. Definitely an argument that the PLP (i.e. those who needs to work with and know the potential leader best) should be given more power, not less, even if that's at the cost of the enthusiasm of the membership.

In summary, I guess JC proved himself as a good campaigner, but a horrible leader. Starmer looks likely to be the other way around, and I'd say it's too early to tell if that's going to become too much of an over-correction.
Not read it, but just picking up those points…

– It is a shame for the left that there was not the ability for Corbyn to step aside. He became crucial even though he was clearly unsuited to that kind of position. His conflict aversion is not tenable. And as you say would have been a further problem if he'd have become PM.
– But part of the reason for that is that the PLP was only interested in making that argument factionally. And they suggested replacing him with candidates as useless and incompetent (in other ways) as Owen Smith and Angela Eagle. It wasn't: look we understand the membership wants a left-wing candidate, we just want someone a bit more competent, but very much 'purge the left'. What they've managed to do with Starmer is pretend he was the former, whilst he was actually still the latter.
– You can achieve both competent management of the PLP and enthusiasm of the membership if you have reselection / primaries. Unfortunately there is a significant cadre of the PLP who don't want that kind of democratic accountability, and see their role as being part of an appointed elite whose authority should be unquestioned. The failure of the left to get through reselection is one of the most enormous failings of the Corbyn era and is why the entire project, and the Labour Party itself, is for the forseeable future a lost cause.
 

Sweet Square

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– You can achieve both competent management of the PLP and enthusiasm of the membership if you have reselection / primaries. Unfortunately there is a significant cadre of the PLP who don't want that kind of democratic accountability, and see their role as being part of an appointed elite whose authority should be unquestioned. The failure of the left to get through reselection is one of the most enormous failings of the Corbyn era and is why the entire project, and the Labour Party itself, is for the forseeable future a lost cause.
Also I'm pretty sure a decent number of unions were against the idea as well. As they feared it would lower the leverage unions have in the party(And somewhat understandable argument tbh).
 

Foxbatt

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So he was suspended for saying that he doesn't accept the whole of the report which was that Labour party was institutionally anti semitic under him?