Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

[Smores]

They list problems in their lives, infrequent work, poor public services, shitty welfare and then instead of blaming Westminster they blame migrants. I recognise they have fears on migration, but it is irrational, I don't think going hard on migration will solve their problems

I saw on newsnight a labour MP says Corbyn doesn't get it on migration, I.e. he's got the wrong policy on them. I heard a snippet of John Mann on the radio saying something similar

"Listen mate your concerns are irrational, immigrants are great come on just vote Labour. We're fighting for you". Yeah brilliant

What doesn't he get? His policy was exactly what you've said which is why he champions reintroducing the immigration impact fund.

They keep coming out with the line that he doesn't get immigration but then they go out and deny it's a problem themselves. Clueless the lot of them.

 

[Frosty]

"Listen mate your concerns are irrational, immigrants are great come on just vote Labour. We're fighting for you". Yeah brilliant

What doesn't he get? His policy was exactly what you've said which is why he champions reintroducing the immigration impact fund.

They keep coming out with the line that he doesn't get immigration but then they go out and deny it's a problem themselves. Clueless the lot of them.

To be fair to John Mann, I think he has been saying similar things for well over a decade.

 

[Frosty]

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...usive-150-labour-mps-face-defeat-snap-general

 

[Mozza]

"Listen mate your concerns are irrational, immigrants are great come on just vote Labour. We're fighting for you". Yeah brilliant

What doesn't he get? His policy was exactly what you've said which is why he champions reintroducing the immigration impact fund.

They keep coming out with the line that he doesn't get immigration but then they go out and deny it's a problem themselves. Clueless the lot of them.

Their fear is irrational so nothing you do can satisfy them with regards to migrants, all you'll achive is making migrants lives misrable

 

[Sweet Square]

The evidence turned out to be some completely random bloke who said Corbyn told him in a restaurant. What a twat George Eaton is.

There was me slightly worrying about it. Some of the desperate shite coming out at the moment, very odd bit on BBC last night when they reported there was about a 1000 or so supporters outside backing Corbyn outside(Real number was closer to 5,000). Don't what to put the tin foil hat on but that's really odd stuff.

 

[Smores]

Their fear is irrational so nothing you do can satisfy them with regards to migrants, all you'll achive is making migrants lives misrable

That's your opinion mate and they have every right to hold their own without it being disregarded as irrational.

There's plenty that can be done and starting that conversation to set out what is acceptable to Britain is one that's overdue.

Control of our own borders is the first aspect and having a clear policy on what benefits can be claimed is another. Managing the population growth via better city planning to ensure there's no overcrowding to services is another.

This general election needs to be fought on the parties vision for immigration. Saying we don't think it's a problem so we don't have a policy won't work anymore

 

[x42bn6]

That's your opinion mate and they have every right to hold their own without it being disregarded as irrational.

There's plenty that can be done and starting that conversation to set out what is acceptable to Britain is one that's overdue.

Control of our own borders is the first aspect and having a clear policy on what benefits can be claimed is another. Managing the population growth via better city planning to ensure there's no overcrowding to services is another.

This general election needs to be fought on the parties vision for immigration. Saying we don't think it's a problem so we don't have a policy won't work anymore

I found this interesting presentation on "white flight" and "white fear", and it goes into a bit of detail on what we can do to make integration better: http://www.smf.co.uk/wp-content/upl...alk-Eric-Kaufmann-Ethnic-Change-UK-201114.pdf (PDF)

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I found this interesting presentation on "white flight" and "white fear", and it goes into a bit of detail on what we can do to make integration better: http://www.smf.co.uk/wp-content/upl...alk-Eric-Kaufmann-Ethnic-Change-UK-201114.pdf (PDF)

It has always appeared obvious to me. The older generation are more likely to react badly to immigration because they remember a time when there were hardly any immigrants. The younger generations have grown up in a multicultural society and went to school with immigrant and have friends of other ethnicities. It becomes normalised and a part of 'British culture'. It helps to explain the age demographics of the Leave vote.

It is also why I said Merkel made a huge huge mistake around the immigrant crisis because a society cannot adapt peacefully to that level of immigration at once. It could be one of the key moments that we look back on as deciding the fate of the EU.

It is fear rooted in ignorance. But to continue to dismiss or demonise the phenomenon will get you no where IMO. It has to be tackled with logic and understanding.

I don't think the hard left are capable of that.

 

[711]

Good post CM.

 

[evra]

Corbyn has gone up in my estimations. He has the support of the base and the unions, just not the support of the career politicians in his party. I admire the fact that he is refusing to bend to their will, perhaps this will lead to Labour offering a credible alternative to the Conservatives.

 

[Mozza]

It has always appeared obvious to me. The older generation are more likely to react badly to immigration because they remember a time when there were hardly any immigrants. The younger generations have grown up in a multicultural society and went to school with immigrant and have friends of other ethnicities. It becomes normalised and a part of 'British culture'. It helps to explain the age demographics of the Leave vote.

It is also why I said Merkel made a huge huge mistake around the immigrant crisis because a society cannot adapt peacefully to that level of immigration at once. It could be one of the key moments that we look back on as deciding the fate of the EU.

It is fear rooted in ignorance. But to continue to dismiss or demonise the phenomenon will get you no where IMO. It has to be tackled with logic and understanding.

I don't think the hard left are capable of that.

They werr refugees. Close the borsers and leave them trapped in the southern european states. Send them back to a warzone? What should she have done?

 

[Mozza]

That's your opinion mate and they have every right to hold their own without it being disregarded as irrational.

There's plenty that can be done and starting that conversation to set out what is acceptable to Britain is one that's overdue.

Control of our own borders is the first aspect and having a clear policy on what benefits can be claimed is another. Managing the population growth via better city planning to ensure there's no overcrowding to services is another.

This general election needs to be fought on the parties vision for immigration. Saying we don't think it's a problem so we don't have a policy won't work anymore

Its irrational as areas with little migration still vote out

Housing is too expensive because we don't build enough, not because of migrants. Hospitals are too busy because of an ageing native population. The only area you can say has some pressure is schools but you've a 4 year lead time before babies are old enough for school. If there aren't enough spaces its the government fecking up

 

[711]

Corbyn has gone up in my estimations. He has the support of the base and the unions, just not the support of the career politicians in his party. I admire the fact that he is refusing to bend to their will, perhaps this will lead to Labour offering a credible alternative to the Conservatives.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

They werr refugees. Close the borsers and leave them trapped in the southern european states. Send them back to a warzone? What should she have done?

What was the final ratio of opportunist migrants and genuine refugees? I think it was 70/30 IIRC. She made it worse for the refugees and the EU IMO. Although my point isn't the specifics of that, it is how to deal with the consequences.

For the right it gives them leverage. The hard left just want to bury their head in the sand, denigrate the section of society complaining about it and come out with insanely stupid comments from the top like 'in the future there won't be any borders'.

@712

I take you are a Tory then?

 

[MikeUpNorth]

They werr refugees. Close the borsers and leave them trapped in the southern european states. Send them back to a warzone? What should she have done?

It probably should have been made very clear that refugee status is temporary and the aim is to send them back to their home country if and when it is safe to do so. That is what refugee status is after all.

 

[Ubik]

The Thick of It is reality.

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[Cheesy]

The Thick of It is reality.

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Two men walk into a bar, and hold a Labour Shadow Cabinet meeting.

 

[Sir Matt]

The Thick of It is reality.

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But his incompetence is an endearing aspect of his authenticity!

 

[711]

I take you are a Tory then?

Absolutely not, but evra is, the wummer.

 

[DOTA]

@Ubik Not sure if you've said and I missed it but just wondering if you have a preferred candidate you're hoping the PLP will unite behind?

 

[Frosty]

The Thick of It is reality.

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Nail, meet head.

 

[Mozza]

It probably should have been made very clear that refugee status is temporary and the aim is to send them back to their home country if and when it is safe to do so. That is what refugee status is after all.

You think that would have stopped them coming to Europe?

 

[Tiber]

Under Corbyn: Bad results in Scotland, disappointing results in Wales, bad local election results and lost the referendum ... that went well

 

[Sassy Colin]

Guardian: Jeremy Corbyn plans to address a rally of grassroots supporters at the gates of parliament tonight after facing down his critics within the Parliamentary Labour party.

Labour’s leader will at first attend a crucial meeting of MPs where he is expected to face calls for his resignation including former members of his shadow cabinet.

But after calling for party unity, he plans to address a Momentum rally on Parliament Square, 20 yards from the parliamentary estate, sources said.

He may well be flanked at the rally by up to 20 MPs, who among those who remain loyal to Labour’s leader.

The address will offer a stark reminder to MPs that Corbyn’s support remains outside the Parliamentary party which has always been hostile towards him.

A source close to his office confirmed that he would address the rally following the PLP meeting. Corbyn also thanked Diane Abbott for the casserole.

Saw that on the news last night, what a pathetic bunch of deluded idiots the lot of them.

 

[Mozza]

What was the final ratio of opportunist migrants and genuine refugees? I think it was 70/30 IIRC. She made it worse for the refugees and the EU IMO. Although my point isn't the specifics of that, it is how to deal with the consequences.

For the right it gives them leverage. The hard left just want to bury their head in the sand, denigrate the section of society complaining about it and come out with insanely stupid comments from the top like 'in the future there won't be any borders'.

@712

I take you are a Tory then?

I still see no solutions from you, just complaining about what she did. What could she have done to stop those people coming to Europe?

 

[Sweet Square]

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Yay can't wait for the new leader.

 

[Ubik]

@Ubik Not sure if you've said and I missed it but just wondering if you have a preferred candidate you're hoping the PLP will unite behind?

It's at the stage now where I've thrown positioning out the window and just want someone that can actually put together a team, focus them rigidly on their jobs and ensure Boris isn't allowed to get away with anything. Looks like it'll either be Watson or Eagle, neither are ideal for me but both would do that job. And both would highlight it as nonsense when Corbyn allies describe it as a "Blairite coup". Have them try to stitch the party back together in time for the inevitable election, then after that try and bring in someone that is more of a long term bet (be that either Nandy to the left or Umunna/Jarvis to the right). Benn would've been my preferred candidate as caretaker but fairly obvious that's not happening.

Don't want to think much about the consequences if Corbyn hangs on, but a split is likely (either formal or informal).

 

[Dobba]

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Yay can't wait for the new leader.

You're not supposed to call them Tory-lite though, apparently.

 

[Frosty]

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Yay can't wait for the new leader.

I get your point, but things were more nuanced than that.

On 6 July, two days before George Osborne’s emergency budget, and with a vote on fresh government cuts to benefits and tax credits looming in a new welfare bill, Harman decided to broach the welfare issue at a thinly attended shadow cabinet meeting. She said the party could not resort to reflex opposition. When Burnham resisted, Harman told him bluntly: “You may have noticed we lost the election.” According to one of the people present, “She was unspeakably rude to him.”

Six days later, Harman hurled a grenade into the leadership contest. Speaking on the BBC’s Sunday Politics programme, she announced: “We’re not going to be voting against the welfare bill, we’re not going to be opposing the household benefit cap. We’re going to be understanding about the point about three or more children.”

Burnham supporters were furious. An incandescent member of his camp rang Harman’s aides to complain that the leadership campaign teams had not been informed. “She over-reached herself, basically,” one campaign source said. “It was a political management feck-up. So just as everyone is arriving on the Corbyn train, the mainstream leaderships are being asked to leave in the opposite direction.”

Burnham responded by calling for “a reasoned amendment” to the welfare bill – setting out the arguments for its inadequacy. (Cooper quickly adopted the same line.) But Corbyn’s response was unequivocal. “I am not willing to vote for policies that will push more children into poverty,” he said in a statement shortly after Harman’s TV appearance. “Families are suffering enough. We shouldn’t play the government’s political games with the welfare system if children are at stake.”

Privately, Cooper had warned Harman that her decision could help hand the contest to Corbyn – as the only candidate not in the shadow cabinet, he was not bound to support the interim leader’s line, and was therefore free to rebel. On 14 July, a difficult meeting of the shadow cabinet took place. Harman began by saying that she was going to take contributions in sequence round the table, rather than choosing speakers from those with their hands raised. She started with Tristram Hunt, who was sitting next to her. He launched into a “long and emotional” speech supporting Harman’s position, according to one person present at the meeting. “If she was retiring at that point, I would have booked Tristram to make that speech. It was a great after-dinner speech, but it went on for hours.” After Hunt had finished, Harman said that Cooper would have to speak next since she needed to leave the meeting early – giving Cooper the opportunity to call for an amendment to the bill. The Burnham camp wanted to take the lead in proposing an amendment, and believed they had been stitched up. “It was obvious [Cooper] was plotting with *******, because she then stayed another hour,” one witness said.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/25/jeremy-corbyn-earthquake-labour-party

EDIT: Here is the Shadow Cabinet at the time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Shadow_Cabinet_of_Harriet_Harman

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I still see no solutions from you, just complaining about what she did. What could she have done to stop those people coming to Europe?

The large volume of opportunist economic migrants that came after she declared that everyone can come are we talking about here?

As for the genuine refugees.

Pay several billions of Euros into refugee camps to make them habitable and safe.

 

[Shamwow]

I get your point, but things were more nuanced than that.



http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/25/jeremy-corbyn-earthquake-labour-party

EDIT: Here is the Shadow Cabinet at the time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Shadow_Cabinet_of_Harriet_Harman

Shame they only rebel when it's in their personal interests.

 

[Mozza]

The large volume of opportunist economic migrants that came after she declared that everyone can come are we talking about here?

As for the genuine refugees.

Pay several billions of Euros into refugee camps to make them habitable and safe.

No refugees are staying without going through the formal process, they will try to weed out the false assylum seekers

They were already on their way or in Europe so spending cash on camps wasnt going to change the situation then. Further people want to live, not just be parked in a camp in the middle of the desert

 

[Classical Mechanic]

No refugees are staying without going through the formal process, they will try to weed out the false assylum seekers

They were already on their way or in Europe so spending cash on camps wasnt going to change the situation then. Further people want to live, not just be parked in a camp in the middle of the desert

Besides I said her declaration of an open door was the mistake. She didn't have to say that. Genuine refugees would still have made the journey.

 

[Sweet Square]

I get your point, but things were more nuanced than that.

It was pretty simply actually,they thought it would good for the Labour image to hit people on welfare. Nothing nuanced about it.

Here's them last year trying to worm out of their decision(It the first question)-

 

[Drifter]

You're not supposed to call them Tory-lite though, apparently.

Who says.That's exactly what they are.

 

[Kaos]

Looking forward to the new leader abstaining his way to an election victory.

 

[Shamwow]

65% of Labour voters wanted an EU referendum in 2011.

 

[Sir Matt]

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[Frosty]

It was pretty simply actually,they thought it would good for the Labour image to hit people on welfare. Nothing nuanced about it.

Here's them last year trying to worm out of their decision(It the first question)-

Labour, and centre-left parties, have wages a war on the welfare state for the past 30 years (at least). Clinton did so before the 1996 election. That doesn't excuse their decision. I disagreed with it then and still do now. The Labour Party have too often failed to present a vision of progressive politics, and too often focused on policy minutiae which hits the people they are meant to represent and stand for, in the aim of claiming mythical middle England voters.

But (and there is obviously a but here), this is more nuanced than sheer self-interest, painting these figures as rebelling when they want to. I do believe that for a number of those who resigned, they did so because they genuinely have fears about the continued existence of the Labour Party. I think this fear (although not as existential as it is now) motivated many to abstain from the 2015 vote on benefits, which came very soon after a massive, massive electoral defeat.

 

[Ubik]

It was pretty simply actually,they thought it would good for the Labour image to hit people on welfare. Nothing nuanced about it.

Here's them last year trying to worm out of their decision(It the first question)-

ABSTAINED - Ronnie Campbell, long time member of the awkward squad in the Labour left
ABSTAINED - Jo Cox, the one everyone agreed was a fantastic MP a week ago, and who Corbyn did not describe as Tory-lite after leading the condolences after her murder
ABSTAINED - Barry Gardiner, newly appointed to the shadow cabinet, was literally only person at PLP meeting yesterday to speak up for Corbyn
ABSTAINED - Pat Glass, newly appointed to the shadow cabinet
ABSTAINED - Harry Harpham, former miner who sadly died last year, Corbyn once again led the condolences well
ABSTAINED - Andy Slaughter, only resigned from his shadow ministerial position after 90% of his local party agreed, long time friend of Corbyn
ABSTAINED - Emily Thornberry, now shadow foreign secretary, one of the few left who'll defend Corbyn
ABSTAINED - Jon Trickett, Corbyn's biggest ally in the PLP aside from McDonnell, now an important member of the shadow cabinet

It's almost like you can't boil down someone's political views based on a single abstention, isn't it.