Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

[Ubik]

He's Labour's David Moyes. He's had his 10 months, been an embarrassment and now needs to go.

"But I have a 6 year contract".

 

[MikeUpNorth]

"But I have a 6 year contract".

 

[Shamwow]

I get that you think some in the party have harmed his chances by not supporting him since the leadership election, but what do you think of his performance since that point? Have you watched the VICE documentary? He's been absolutely terrible as leader of the opposition, let alone leader of the Labour party, and if there's an election in the next six months he has no chance of leaving the party in a stronger position than he found it in last year.

I haven't seen the VICE documentary, not hugely interested by that sort of thing. I get that he's not good at a lot of stuff - especially the superficial media stuff that does nothing to excite me but is important to many others - but the party could have helped with a lot of that, instead they helped make it worse.

I'm more upset at how many have undermined and even demonised many of their members, and no one stepped in to tell them to stop as far as I can tell.

 

[horsechoker]

He's Labour's David Moyes. He's had his 10 months, been an embarrassment and now needs to go.

"we aspire to be like the Conservatives"

 

[sun_tzu]

It be interesting to how much public interest is still with the Iraq war(Hopefully a lot).

I suspect the enquiry when published won't get that much traction as there will be a conservative leadership election, a civil war in the Labour party, a big hoo ha about the Trident vote plus all the article 50 and economic fall out from the referendum to deal with.

 

[decorativeed]

The fact Corbyn ended up being voted leader by such a massive majority in the first place, despite only being put on the ballot as some kind of token alternative, suggests there is very much a problem with the MPs.

When MPs...i.e. members of a democratic party, decide to go about deliberately undermining and ignoring the result of a democratic vote from their members, then there is VERY DEFINITELY a problem with the MPs. A very serious problem. It's not 80% of them who fall into this category. It's 80% who have lost faith in Corbyn's ability to sort this out, which isn't an unreasonable view to take at this point even if you like or want to support him...I don't reallly have faith in Corbyn's ability to sort this out, but I certainly don't see how it's his fault. If it was his fault he'd never have been elected in the first place.

What exactly is the pplan of this lot who've been deiberately undermining their own party for months? None of them have offered any political direction themselves. None of them offer a plan. They have just thrown their toys out of the pram because their members told them in no uncertain terms that they were a bit shit. Corbyn is merely the result of that.

Spot on. As a result of this, I am torn as to my party loyalty also. I want a Labour Party who can unite on the issues Corbyn was elected on the back of, but it looks like that's not what the MPs want. They are a shambles at a time when even holding it together in public would be seen as an improvement on the state of affairs in the Conservative camp. That should be the least they are capable of.

 

[soap]

You may like his politics, fine, but find someone competent who can represent these ideals and lead the party.

Not sure how many of those are in the Labour party, and even if there are, I can't see that they won't be undermined at every turn in the same way as Corbyn.

 

[fishfingers15]

Maybe Fergie can be the leader of the Labour Party.

 

[fishfingers15]

From what I've read, Corbyn looks like the Bernie Sanders of the US. A near cult like following among the young voters, check. Brought new voters to the polls to increase the size of the electorate, (check? Don't know for sure on this). Has a massive following in the internetz with active volunteers and tweeters, check. Having trouble to translate this into real votes by having grassroots members of the party doing the hard yard, check.

The online debate will always be on the side of Corbyn and it may not reflect the grassroots opinion which may well be against Corbyn. I've only recently read up on Labour and Corbyn, so all this may be highly inaccurate.

 

[Ubik]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Seems that this is Corbyn's endgame.

If the 172 who have lost confidence in him resigned the Labour whip after that, he would no longer be leader of the opposition, and would command fewer MPs than the SNP in 2015, and the Lib Dems in 2010, 2005 and 2001.

 

[Sweet Square]

I suspect the enquiry when published won't get that much traction as there will be a conservative leadership election, a civil war in the Labour party, a big hoo ha about the Trident vote plus all the article 50 and economic fall out from the referendum to deal with.

It was still a big topic during the US primary's for both Dem & Republican. Also I've a heard few people(When I say people I post on the internet) mention that if the enquiry is bad for the like of Blair and his party back then(Chances that will be the case)Corbyn will call for charges against Blair.

But yes I agree with you that the odds are it won't get much traction.

 

[NinjaFletch]

From what I've read, Corbyn looks like the Bernie Sanders of the US. A near cult like following among the young voters, check. Brought new voters to the polls to increase the size of the electorate, (check? Don't know for sure on this). Has a massive following in the internetz with active volunteers and tweeters, check. Having trouble to translate this into real votes by having grassroots members of the party doing the hard yard, check.

The online debate will always be on the side of Corbyn and it may not reflect the grassroots opinion which may well be against Corbyn. I've only recently read up on Labour and Corbyn, so all this may be highly inaccurate.

To be fair to him Corbyn's grassroot support looks strong. Its the swing votes he fails to grab.

 

[ThierryHenry]

I haven't seen the VICE documentary, not hugely interested by that sort of thing. I get that he's not good at a lot of stuff - especially the superficial media stuff that does nothing to excite me but is important to many others - but the party could have helped with a lot of that, instead they helped make it worse.

I'm more upset at how many have undermined and even demonised many of their members, and no one stepped in to tell them to stop as far as I can tell.

If you accept that he was voted in to 'shift the debate' to a more left-wing Labour party, and ultimately, Westminster, then he was only going to do that by creating a coherent message that people wanted to hear, and spreading that message to the British people. He's utterly, utterly failed on that front, with Labour not doing anything to 'sell' their message to voters - you can see it in the referendum and Scottish and local elections, or you can see it on the news, where we see the Tories repeatedly getting away with selling their own lies on a whole host of matters. I don't see how anyone can have seen Jeremy's work as leader of the party and believe he and his team are capable of building an effective opposition.

And Momentum have 'demonised' their own enemies just as much, the deselection threats are more reminiscent of the Tea Party than anything else we've seen in British Politics.

 

[ThierryHenry]

And Momentum have 'demonised' their own enemies just as much, the deselection threats are more reminiscent of the Tea Party than anything else we've seen in British Politics.

See below:

This will get ugly(er).

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[fishfingers15]

See below:

This will get ugly(er).

Can't see the tweet.

I've been reading Guardian's live blog and it's been pretty scathing about Corbyn's efforts on this vote. I've read at least 5 different leaked emails in which Corbyn has come under attack for his leadership from various parties (Tories, Labour, from someone in the remain camp etc etc) that there was a lack of coherent messaging from the Labour party on the vote. It almost seemed like, Let's do the best we can and make up our minds after the result of the vote. Surely, if Corbyn is very popular among the grassroots of Labour party, he should have delivered majority of the party votes for remain?

It's all confusing to me but I'm getting the story only from Guardian, so it may be biased.

 

[Ubik]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

And this is why losing the confidence of 80% of your party MPs when you're the official opposition actually has serious ramifications.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I don't even give a shite anymore. Lib Dems have my vote as it stands.

I would advise to think tactically. If Corbyn stays I might have to vote for him anyway because UKIP could realistically have a chance of winning in my ward.

 

[noodlehair]

Spot on. As a result of this, I am torn as to my party loyalty also. I want a Labour Party who can unite on the issues Corbyn was elected on the back of, but it looks like that's not what the MPs want. They are a shambles at a time when even holding it together in public would be seen as an improvement on the state of affairs in the Conservative camp. That should be the least they are capable of.

Not sure how many of those are in the Labour party, and even if there are, I can't see that they won't be undermined at every turn in the same way as Corbyn.

Exactly. The ones who've caused this mess will need to go whether Corbyn does or not for the party to have any credibility at all. What you have is a bunch of MPs who want to deliberately ignore their members and do the opposite to what their members want. They demonstrated that before Corbyn was elected with the Welfare bill among other things, and that is THE reason why he was elected. Not because people see him as a potential strong PM or some grand cult leader, but because he's literally the only solution that was put before left wing voters...and until someone gives them another solution this whole fracas is without any purpose. Corbyn is a byproduct of a massive problem with Labour MPs who have disappeared up their own backsides.

 

[Shamwow]

If you accept that he was voted in to 'shift the debate' to a more left-wing Labour party, and ultimately, Westminster, then he was only going to do that by creating a coherent message that people wanted to hear, and spreading that message to the British people. He's utterly, utterly failed on that front, with Labour not doing anything to 'sell' their message to voters - you can see it in the referendum and Scottish and local elections, or you can see it on the news, where we see the Tories repeatedly getting away with selling their own lies on a whole host of matters. I don't see how anyone can have seen Jeremy's work as leader of the party and believe he and his team are capable of building an effective opposition.

And Momentum have 'demonised' their own enemies just as much, the deselection threats are more reminiscent of the Tea Party than anything else we've seen in British Politics.

I can't really be added to go through his strengths and weaknesses for the nth time in this thread sorry. Mind is made up and so is yours.

As for momentum, I expect higher standards for my MPs (or at least I used to). They are all too happy to generalise and demonise when it suits them, but all too often it's people they should be reaching out to. Not to defend Twitter trolls or the like, rather everyone else who is tarred with the same brush.

 

[Red Defence]

Can't see the tweet.

I've been reading Guardian's live blog and it's been pretty scathing about Corbyn's efforts on this vote. I've read at least 5 different leaked emails in which Corbyn has come under attack for his leadership from various parties (Tories, Labour, from someone in the remain camp etc etc) that there was a lack of coherent messaging from the Labour party on the vote. It almost seemed like, Let's do the best we can and make up our minds after the result of the vote. Surely, if Corbyn is very popular among the grassroots of Labour party, he should have delivered majority of the party votes for remain?

It's all confusing to me but I'm getting the story only from Guardian, so it may be biased.

I didn't expect anyone to vote on the party line in this referendum. Don't think the politicians did either which is why they were all allowed to vote as they saw fit.

 

[Frosty]

He's Labour's David Moyes. He's had his 10 months, been an embarrassment and now needs to go.

I just saw the Vice documentary. And I cringed. It is not a competent Leader's Office.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Seems that this is Corbyn's endgame.

If the 172 who have lost confidence in him resigned the Labour whip after that, he would no longer be leader of the opposition, and would command fewer MPs than the SNP in 2015, and the Lib Dems in 2010, 2005 and 2001.

regarding de/reselection:

Tim Bale, a politics professor at Queen Mary University of London, has carried out a survey of Labour members and registered supporters who signed up after the 2015 general election, as part of a research project into party membership, and he has found that the newcomers are not particularly active. Here’s an extract from his paper.


"What is fascinating, however, is that if Labour is to win, it may have to do it largely without much practical help from its new members and registered supporters. Confirming the complaints of many a Labour MP and ward secretary, the newbies might talk (and tweet) a good game, but they don’t necessarily turn up to do the hard yards.

Just over two-thirds of Labour’s post-GE2015 members and supporters (68%) have retweeted, posted or forwarded a message supporting the Labour party on social media and nearly nine out of ten (88%) claim to have signed a petition on behalf of the party. But only 15% of them have participated in door-to-door or telephone canvassing of voters or helped out at a party function, and only 28% of them claimed to have delivered leaflets. Indeed, some 63% said they had put in no time at all on behalf of the party during recent local, mayoral and devolved elections.

Finally, 61% of Labour’s new members say they have never attended a party meeting – which could mean that MPs worried about their obvious enthusiasm for deselecting those hostile to Jeremy may have less to fear than they might think."

 

[ThierryHenry]

Can't see the tweet.

I've been reading Guardian's live blog and it's been pretty scathing about Corbyn's efforts on this vote. I've read at least 5 different leaked emails in which Corbyn has come under attack for his leadership from various parties (Tories, Labour, from someone in the remain camp etc etc) that there was a lack of coherent messaging from the Labour party on the vote. It almost seemed like, Let's do the best we can and make up our minds after the result of the vote. Surely, if Corbyn is very popular among the grassroots of Labour party, he should have delivered majority of the party votes for remain?

It's all confusing to me but I'm getting the story only from Guardian, so it may be biased.

In terms of 'is he popular with the grassroots of the party', it's not as simple a question as it would be in the US.

The membership vote for who the new leader of the party is, and 422,000 people voted in Corbyn's leadership election. It would definitely be fair to say that he had the majority of the grassroots support at that point, but the grassroots/ members aren't exactly equivalent to the 9.4m people who voted for the Labour party in 2015. For obvious reasons, it's therefore hard to draw any comparisons with Sanders and the US Primary model. If all of those 9.4m voted for a leader of the party I've no idea who we'd end up with, but it would be unlikely to be Corbyn, who attracts more of the fringe left-wing support.

In terms of the EU referendum, it's unclear what Corbyn's personal views are, though his campaigning was pretty pitiful. It seems likely that he supported 'remain' because it was what the majority of the party wanted, and then his poor performance can be put down to either his lack of media skills, his personal disaffinity with the EU, or his poor campaigning abilities. None are really positives.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

I just saw the Vice documentary. And I cringed. It is not a competent Leader's Office.

Exactly. I'm gonna post it here for those who haven't seen it. I can't believe anyone can watch it and still blame the MPs for trying to oust him.


"It's not up to me to throw in - other than a couple of lines - about that the government is in a mess." - Jeremy Corbyn, on preparing to respond to David Cameron in Parliament after Iain Duncan Smith resigns and calls the budget and welfare cuts unfair.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Regarding de/reselection:

Tim Bale, a politics professor at Queen Mary University of London, has carried out a survey of Labour members and registered supporters who signed up after the 2015 general election, as part of a research project into party membership, and he has found that the newcomers are not particularly active. Here’s an extract from his paper.

"What is fascinating, however, is that if Labour is to win, it may have to do it largely without much practical help from its new members and registered supporters. Confirming the complaints of many a Labour MP and ward secretary, the newbies might talk (and tweet) a good game, but they don’t necessarily turn up to do the hard yards.

Just over two-thirds of Labour’s post-GE2015 members and supporters (68%) have retweeted, posted or forwarded a message supporting the Labour party on social media and nearly nine out of ten (88%) claim to have signed a petition on behalf of the party. But only 15% of them have participated in door-to-door or telephone canvassing of voters or helped out at a party function, and only 28% of them claimed to have delivered leaflets. Indeed, some 63% said they had put in no time at all on behalf of the party during recent local, mayoral and devolved elections.

Finally, 61% of Labour’s new members say they have never attended a party meeting – which could mean that MPs worried about their obvious enthusiasm for deselecting those hostile to Jeremy may have less to fear than they might think."

That's been my experience too. When you turn up to Labour meetings and campaigning events, it's the same people who've been there for the past decade.

 

[Ubik]

I just saw the Vice documentary. And I cringed. It is not a competent Leader's Office.



regarding de/reselection:

Yeah, it's questionable whether they'd have the strength in enough constituencies to actually pull much off, but the worry is that it's essentially what Momentum was designed for - the quick mobilisation of loyalists against perceived enemies of Corbyn. If he manages to survive a membership vote, given how absurdly clear it is that he cannot continue, it suggests they're capable of doing such.

 

[fishfingers15]

In terms of 'is he popular with the grassroots of the party', it's not as simple a question as it would be in the US.

The membership vote for who the new leader of the party is, and 422,000 people voted in Corbyn's leadership election. It would definitely be fair to say that he had the majority of the grassroots support at that point, but the grassroots/ members aren't exactly equivalent to the 9.4m people who voted for the Labour party in 2015. For obvious reasons, it's therefore hard to draw any comparisons with Sanders and the US Primary model. If all of those 9.4m voted for a leader of the party I've no idea who we'd end up with, but it would be unlikely to be Corbyn, who attracts more of the fringe left-wing support.

In terms of the EU referendum, it's unclear what Corbyn's personal views are, though his campaigning was pretty pitiful. It seems likely that he supported 'remain' because it was what the majority of the party wanted, and then his poor performance can be put down to either his lack of media skills, his personal disaffinity with the EU, or his poor campaigning abilities. None are really positives.

It's a lot more clear and I can see both sides of it now.

 

[hubbuh]

Can't see the tweet.

I've been reading Guardian's live blog and it's been pretty scathing about Corbyn's efforts on this vote. I've read at least 5 different leaked emails in which Corbyn has come under attack for his leadership from various parties (Tories, Labour, from someone in the remain camp etc etc) that there was a lack of coherent messaging from the Labour party on the vote. It almost seemed like, Let's do the best we can and make up our minds after the result of the vote. Surely, if Corbyn is very popular among the grassroots of Labour party, he should have delivered majority of the party votes for remain?

It's all confusing to me but I'm getting the story only from Guardian, so it may be biased.

The majority of the Labour Party did vote remain, over two thirds in fact.

 

[Frosty]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Seems that this is Corbyn's endgame.

If the 172 who have lost confidence in him resigned the Labour whip after that, he would no longer be leader of the opposition, and would command fewer MPs than the SNP in 2015, and the Lib Dems in 2010, 2005 and 2001.

If this happens then I will have to leave the Party. We are a representative democracy, we do not have delegates.

What the hell is supposed to happen if MPs are privy to national security briefings? Run them past the CLP branch first to ensure how to respond?

 

[fishfingers15]

The majority of the Labour Party did vote remain, over two thirds in fact.

I didn't expect anyone to vote on the party line in this referendum. Don't think the politicians did either which is why they were all allowed to vote as they saw fit.

My personal take on the referendum was that the Tories were pushing for this due to internal party struggles and most of the left apart from a fringe extreme was keen on remaining in the EU. As such, I thought this would be an opportune time for the Labour to capitalize on the fighting within the Tory party and Corbyn and the Labour would push hard for remain vote, picking up disgruntled Tory voters who would vote remain.

In the end, as Red Defence said, the vote wasn't party lines and although Labour supporters voted 60% to remain, it seems that Corbyn didn't push it too hard and in the end now facing internal struggle within his own party. Is this closer to the truth?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

'if people want to get rid of him, the best thing to do is wait for Jeremy to fail.........I don't think he will, but you know, let him fail in his own time'.

That was his PA!

Cracked me up.

 

[berbatrick]

Since we are doing TTOI references, Labour MPs abstaining from the welfare bill reminds me of the time Leader of Opposition Nicola Murray decided to be tough on school breakfast so that she could claim to be fiscally responsible.

 

[settembrini]

Labour are such a ridiculous shambles atm they'll probably get rid of Corbyn and elect Diane Abbott.

 

[Frosty]

Momentum is what happens when the ghost of Eric Heffer starts a protest movement. Deselection? Again with this crap?

 

[Ubik]

If this happens then I will have to leave the Party. We are a representative democracy, we do not have delegates.

What the hell is supposed to happen if MPs are privy to national security briefings? Run them past the CLP branch first to ensure how to respond?

It's no coincidence that the Campaign for Labour Party Democracy is a hard-left enclave, they see it as the easiest way to enact their agenda.

On a somewhat related note, by the sounds of it local government Labour leaders are going to be calling for him to go soon. Wonder whether/when the whips plan on going.

 

[Sweet Square]

Since we are doing TTOI references, Labour MPs abstaining from the welfare bill reminds me of the time Leader of Opposition Nicola Murray decided to be tough on school breakfast so that she could claim to be fiscally responsible.

Although sadly that is the actual reason Liz Kendall gave in the leadership race.

 

[Mozza]

No, but it changes the narrative to one of helping people in temporary need rather than one about long term immigration.

They have only been given refugee status which is temporary

 

[Kentonio]

Exactly. I'm gonna post it here for those who haven't seen it. I can't believe anyone can watch it and still blame the MPs for trying to oust him.


"It's not up to me to throw in - other than a couple of lines - about that the government is in a mess." - Jeremy Corbyn, on preparing to respond to David Cameron in Parliament after Iain Duncan Smith resigns and calls the budget and welfare cuts unfair.

Jesus christ that was difficult to watch. The arrogance just pours off him. This is a time for knee deep in the trenches warfare against the Tories, not for ivory tower socialist idealism ffs.

 

[berbatrick]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Edit:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Mozza]

Besides I said her declaration of an open door was the mistake. She didn't have to say that. Genuine refugees would still have made the journey.

Its not an open door. She did the noble thing, she didn't wash her hands of the problem and leave Southern Europe to take care of them

 

[Smores]

If this happens then I will have to leave the Party. We are a representative democracy, we do not have delegates.

What the hell is supposed to happen if MPs are privy to national security briefings? Run them past the CLP branch first to ensure how to respond?

So in your opinion it's fine for MPs to go against the memberships will but it's not okay for the elected leader to put in place MPs who align to the mandate he was selected on? That's a ridiculous position to take

If Corbyn wins again then it's time for a party split. Let the wider electorate decide