Why do his managers keep picking him? What do they see in him that other options couldn't provide?
If he's never been good enough, surely somebody other than internet geniuses should have figured it out by now.
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 40
- Goals
- 4
- Assists
- 2
- Yellow cards
- 5
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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If he's never been good enough, surely somebody other than internet geniuses should have figured it out by now.
Let’s be honest he is a bit of a workhorse and decent at pressing. Tackling is a bit meh, he can’t pass or can’t see a pass, isn’t particularly fast but he is decent at making a nuisance of himself when the oppo have the ball.
This mythical intelligent running we hear about has never been a thing and people can try and dress up his constant motion all they want but it doesn’t mean it’s good movement.
This mythical intelligent running we hear about has never been a thing and people can try and dress up his constant motion all they want but it doesn’t mean it’s good movement.
As if that is an argument. A lot of players are picked despite being shit. Lingard is a shit player with terrible stats for an attacking player. His off the pitch antics are the cherry on the cake
Cherry picked stats aren't the be all and end all.
A manager's judgement of 'shitness' is going to be more accurate than an armchair fan's. And when several managers all concur on the same opinion, it's almost certainly correct.
Firstly, what other options? Lingard and mata seem to be sharing a position. Mata isnt good enough for that right wing either, yet still...
Second, the same was said about fellaini. He had his uses, but he was very limited. His managers all picked him. So being picked by the manager isnt a good unit of measurement. McT has had far better games over the time Ole has been here, yet matic is the go to. So, no. Being picked doesnt really mean anything.
None of these managers did a great job nor was he a regular starter.
Well, lets make it simple and take assist and goals stats and tell me you see a top player
That logic should be extended to all the players who aren't very good at our club but that several managers had to use.
Since when has Southgate become a top manager in world football? Hasn't done anything other than fluke his way to a world cup semi final while barely scoring a goal from open play. Getting shat on the first decent team he finally came across.
And two dinosaurs that have done nothing since leaving. Getting sacked because they persisted with player's like Lingy14.
Maybe these manager's should play my washing machine because that works hard.
If that's the road you want to go down, what have his detractors achieved in the game?
Always find it funny when people use the argument that our past managers have used x player so they must be good. Some players used by managers post Fergie who the fans don't like include Fellaini, Young, Lingard, Smalling and Jones. Great company that.
Not to mention post Fergie we've been absolutely awful yet the fact that managers used x player is somehow seen as an argument in support of player.
Not to mention post Fergie we've been absolutely awful yet the fact that managers used x player is somehow seen as an argument in support of player.
Lingard and Ashley Young have been selected by Southgate, LVG, Mourinho, Solkjaer. Antonio Valencia and Fellaini were also favourites under LVG and Mourinho much to the dismay of most fans.
There's a number of reasons we're in our current predicament and one of those is playing mediocre players like Lingard in the team. Has there ever been a non United player with such awful output be defended by another fan base due to his supposed movement?
We have Gomes, Chong and Greenwood who should be played ahead of him. Either out wide or centrally IMO.
There's a number of reasons we're in our current predicament and one of those is playing mediocre players like Lingard in the team. Has there ever been a non United player with such awful output be defended by another fan base due to his supposed movement?
We have Gomes, Chong and Greenwood who should be played ahead of him. Either out wide or centrally IMO.
I find it sad that all those names you mentioned were internationals at the time so I am really not sure what the yardstick is now for players to be considered good. Three of the quoted names played in the semi finals of the WC last year.
I think all 4 players listed that still play for us are fantastic. They are all still doing enough to be considered elite performers.
But hey maybe the yardstick has changed.
I'm sorry but you consider Young, Smalling, Lingard and Jones as fantastic players for us who are elite performers?
No idea what to say in response to that
To even be a professional footballer in the PL you have to be in the 0.012% (180/1,500,000) that make it. That sounds pretty elite to me. Given that all have been or our still full internationals then yes elite is the right word to use.
Compare that to GCSE results where the very top grades every year make up 4% of those that take the exams and they are considered elite, the best of the best, the most sought after talent by businesses.
There is no doubt in my mind that you have to be a very special player to make it at this level and even more special to do it year after year.
So if these are players are considered not very good then likewise I do not know how to respond to people who hold such an opinion.
Why would you compare them to the worldwide population? Yes taking into account everyone in the world they are the best of the best but that isn't really relevant here. If it was then players from the likes of Brighton are also considered elite footballers yet you wouldn't want them at United would you? I'm talking about elite footballers within football and those players mentioned are far from that.
Of course you have to be a special player to make it at this level but it doesn't automatically mean you are good enough for Manchester United.
I think they have proven they are good enough because they have all been part of squads that have won things with us - PL title, FA Cup and Europa League.
Smalling has been a regular in 2 PL teams and you want him gone at 29.
Fine that you don't rate them but I do and they are essential characters in our squad with their experience and ability to not make waves if they are not in the starting 11. They are ready and waiting for when we need them.
A more appropriate comparison is to compare him with his peers. David Silva, Erikkson, Son. Your yardstick is very off if your benchmark for Lingy are people who have different careers to him.
No one is denying they are elite footballers and you're right to mention that stupid % thing to show just how good they are compared to Joe Blogs. But as @Based Adnan mentioned, that 0.012% also play for Brighton / Sheffield United etc, don't know about you but I don't want them at our club. To play for the club of United's stature and standards it might be you need to look at the 5% of those 0.012% of players. That's what makes us United and what makes Sheffield Sheffield. Jessie is not hitting those standards to play for an elite club at the moment with consistent performances of the highest order, which is what I think we should be allowed to expect from our footballers.
If he's going to take one of at most 4 attacking positions on the pitch, he has to contribute goals or assists. He does neither. Until he does, he shouldn't be out there.
Absolutely none of the players listed were regular starters in our PL winning campaigns
Chris Smalling won the league in 10/11 and 12/13:
10/11: 16 league appearances with many of those at RB
12/13: 15 league appearances with some at RB
Hardly call that a regular in 2 PL winning teams.
Phil Jones won the league in 12/13 in which he made 17 league appearances at either CB, RB or DM
Ashley Young in 12/13 made 19 appearances with 0 goals 5 assists
We have never seriously challenged for the league with those players as starters. That is facts unless you count the season we finished 2nd 19 points behind City a title challenge. Ok we won the FA Cup and Europa League with these players but those are second rate trophies in the midst of our worst period post Fergie with those players as starters.
If they are bench options then fair enough but nothing indicates someone like Lingard is a bench option. I'd also argue that an attacking player who is going well over 1000+ minutes/7 months of football without a goal or assist isn't good enough to be a bench option for this club.
Ole suggests he must improve. Regardless I think the position will be under scrutiny.
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So he will be starting as a first 11 player this season? God damn it. Hopefully Ole quickly realises that Lingard is nothing more than a squad member.
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Good choice Silva probably the best midfield player in PL since he arrived, Eriksen good player but completely different and Son who usually plays as a striker when in team but what the hell you know better than all those managers an coaches, can't argue with an expert -----which team do you manage / coach by the way?
Which team do you manage/coach to tell us Lingy is this class act United can't do without? You need to become an advisor to City, Liverpool, Spurs, Real and Barca and tell them to put bids in for him because failed manager's persisted with him so he must be top drawer.
You're right about Erikson being completely different, if you mean on a completely different stratosphere. The players listed are the attacking players of their respective teams. That's who the benchmark is and Lingy falls massively short.
Would you refuse Son in a straight swap because his versatility means he can play anywhere across the front?
I imagine you'll now nitpick about which percentage of the field those players occupy and therefore aren't a valid comparison, when Lingy has been tried all over, even as a false 9 to try and get him to work. But you just can't get shit to work.
Smalling missed three months of the 12/13 season with injury and 10/11 he still played despite Ferdinand and Vidic.
Jones also missed 3 months of the 12/13 season with injury - been very unlucky with injuries
Young in 10/11 played 34 league games and in 12/13 he returned from a very long injury in 2012 but came back in as soon as he was ready
So all 3 played when they were fit were key components of our first xi squad.
In our second place finish in 2016-17 Lingard 25, Smalling 18, Jones 18 and Young 12 appearances in the league so all contributed.
In our successful European campaign Lingard and Smalling made 10 appearances each.
So I would say they have done pretty well for us. Jones has just been unfortunate with injuries.
If you don't rate then - fair enough but it is not as though we have not bought defenders. They have had competition for their places just not lost them so they must be doing something right.
I also rate the Europa league win as well. It is very difficult to win.
As to Lingard he like pretty much all the team could have played better on occasions last season but I am certain he will be back to form this season. I think he is a quality player with the physique to complete in the PL.
It seems to me that when he had that semi-decent season 2 years ago, that he made it. I thought at that point he was finally going to start fulfilling his potential and build from there but it hasn't seemed to do it though.
Actually what makes us Man United is our investment and trust in youth. It has always been that way.
I respect your different view on Lingard. He is not my favourite player but I can see his worth and how he helps us play the way we want to play. It is a tactical blue print I have not seen before and it worked well for a time last season and I look forward to seeing it again after a really good pre-season. I am sure Lingard along with the rest of the squad will perform far better than they did at the tail end of last season.
All 4 are fantastic? Wow
2015/16 EPL 19(6) starts(sub apps) average rating: 6.71 - 23 years old
2016/17 EPL 18(7) starts(sub apps) average rating: 6.69 - 24 years old
2017/18 EPL 20(13) starts(sub apps) average rating: 6.82 - 25 years old
2018/19 EPL 19(8) starts(sub apps) average rating: 6.59 - 26 years old
Is that good enough for Manchester United? We're not talking about 18-21 or even 20-23. 23-26 years old. Lingard is a 6/10 player.
2016/17 EPL 18(7) starts(sub apps) average rating: 6.69 - 24 years old
2017/18 EPL 20(13) starts(sub apps) average rating: 6.82 - 25 years old
2018/19 EPL 19(8) starts(sub apps) average rating: 6.59 - 26 years old
Is that good enough for Manchester United? We're not talking about 18-21 or even 20-23. 23-26 years old. Lingard is a 6/10 player.
And how does that compare against Herrera, Matic and Mata?
That's not proof. That's extremely lazy support.
Ole, I know you don't visit redcafe, but did you know that Moyes, LVG, and Mourinho liked Fellaini? According to Dante, he was great because all 3 managers picked him. The fact that you flogged him off to China means that you were wrong about Fellaini. Oh wait, you're a manager too, which means that your opinion is absolute.
In other words, 3 managers said Fellaini was a great asset and one manager said Fellaini wasn't a great asset. Is it possible for both of these to be truths? Is it possible for Fellaini to be a great asset and not a great asset? Is it possible for Fellaini to be a great player and at the same time, not a great player? According to Dante it is.
I'm confused.
What kind of argument is this? Nobody in the history of Redcafe has ever thought of comparing them to your average joe. So when posters say they're average, the parameters are within the professional level and within that, the PL level, and within that, the top 10 clubs or so. This is something understood by virtually everyone that posts here apart from you. No idea why you would think posters think they're average within the football playing population.
As long as he is an idea in a locked box, he very well could be both
It's not cherry picking stats, it's just stating rather important stats.
He's an attacking player for Utd that gets plenty of playing time and since Boxing Day 2018 he's scored one goal and made 0 assists. How is that acceptable?
I don't give a shit how "great" his movement is, or how much he runs about. That is fecking awful. I'd get rid, but that's not going to happen this summer clearly.
He needs to be much much better this next season, as Ole has already said.
I thought Lingard had good moments today but I see it a bit differently.
In his pivotal positon as the one in front of the midfielders and the one right behind the strikers, he has to be a strong focal point of creativity and link up play otherwise he is just another body (whilst doing 'good' things).
I'd play Pogba there with Matic and Mctominay behind, which would probably give us more defensive stability and play James (he's a bit too raw but he's the only one who gives us natural width) on the right with Rashford and Martial the other front two.
Yes you'd lose Lingard's pressing and movement but I'd bet my chances on more productivity and long term foundations on a midfield 3 consisting of Pogba.
Lingard is essentially playing as a hard working no.10 with very little final ball or consistent output; that's simply not good enough as a starter.
No one in history had thought of the ipad before apple.
I am not really sure how to debate with someone who is in this instance so dismissive of my opinion without offering anything constructive in return.
Of course you are entitled to post in such a manner and perhaps you use these boards for different reasons to me.
I like reading other peoples constructive well thought out and researched thoughts and having a sensible debate.
They're special compared to the average person or average footballer but that's not the level needed at a club like Man United.
But tell me what that is ... who would you get in place? How does that effect the way we play. Personally my preference would be Eriksen but we are not going to get him. Lingard is very capable and good enough to help us get to top 4 which is where we then rebuild again and perhaps upgrade. It is fine margins and as I mentioned before we have not had great success with this type of player in the last 2 decades since Cantona left. Lingard and Park have been the most successful in my opinion since then.
In terms of the squad even the great Bryan Robson was a squad player - by the end and in 92-93 he made 14 PL appearances and in 93-94 15. Still a massive contribution. He was vital according to Sir Alex because behind the scenes the squad has to be right as that is where the match is won or lost. We have to have characters who still push the regulars very hard even though they know they will not be starting every game. If they started to complain then that is when the squad is in trouble.
O'Shea, Brown, Richardson, Cruyf, Park, F Da Silva and even Ole himself were great professionals who would always be ready if needed but every training session they would always push the starting xi to perform. They are all crucial to our success on and off the pitch.
I'm interested to know what you see Lingard as when assessing him and Park to be the most successful since Cantona left, what type of player/position are you referring to?
The false 9 or the central player that occupies the oppo deep lying play maker.
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