Yep. You'd think the players under Fergie had no fun. When you look back at it, it sounds like at least half the time they were doing similar things.
The results were just different because of recruitment and a worse manager.
Jesse Lingard | Seoul singer
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
The results were just different because of recruitment and a worse manager.
The boys didn’t destroy anything. Their careers are a symptom of the broken culture - not a cause.
If any one of them came up as an 18 year old with the likes of Robson, Cantona, Keane, Hughes, Giggs, Schmeichel, Irwin, Vidic and all the other great leaders we had in the 90s, they’d have had very different careers - I’m completely sure of that.
Likewise, there are players who had excellent United careers because of the environment they came up in, who would be seen as failures if they’d come through since 2013.
If any one of them came up as an 18 year old with the likes of Robson, Cantona, Keane, Hughes, Giggs, Schmeichel, Irwin, Vidic and all the other great leaders we had in the 90s, they’d have had very different careers - I’m completely sure of that.
Likewise, there are players who had excellent United careers because of the environment they came up in, who would be seen as failures if they’d come through since 2013.
I don't think it's specifically the dancing, in all fairness. It's what they think the dancing represents, which (rightly or wrongly) is a player not properly committed to being at his best, at what they (rightly or wrongly) consider to be the best club in the world.
Lingard (like a number of others) was effectively a victim of circumstances beyond his control. Under Fergie (or if we were managed properly), I believe he'd have been among the long list of players who had a brief stint in the senior side before being moved on. As it transpired, we'd invested terribly so he ended up with a squad status and wage that his ability and output didn't really command.
I don't think it's possible to fully unpick how much of it was his personality and how much of it was the club being in the shit despite him.
Yup, there's a lot of revisionism going on about Lingard. He was utter tripe for United for the majority of his time here. He had one good season under Jose, of all managers, but that's about it.
Yep, and they’ve all walked away with millions for their incompetence. (well, factoring in the Glazer nepo baby).
I get what you're saying here, but I'm not sure it's strictly true.
Pogba has had a number of issues, and was with the club until he was 19. Fergie was the one that made the call to let him go, rather than offer him the contract/playing time he was demanding.
Then you've got Ravel Morrison, who doesn't even really need his issues discussing.
Even someone like Darron Gibson was with the club until his early/mid-20s, and he's ended up getting done twice for drink driving.
Some players just haven't got the personality/intelligence to thrive, regardless of any natural ability they might have.
Better players than Lingard failed at our club. People often forget the conveyor of talent that DIDN'T make it at United, and some much, much better players than him got sold on by Sir Alex and went on to have decent careers. The sad truth is that Lingard was overrated, overplayed, and overpaid. That was our various managers fault, not his own. He was decent but he wasn't even as good as Jonathan Greening. Terry Cooke went to Birmingham and had a decent career. That would have been about Jese's level, actually. To put Lingard in the same squad with Robson wouldn't have changed that, same way it didn't for Cooke or the 1999 lot with Greening. He simply wasn't that good, and there's a reason he's playing in Seoul.
It wasn't his fault, per say, but it was indeed a culture of mediocrity that allowed a footballing number 10 at man Utd to play an ENTIRE CALENDER YEAR without registering a single goal or assist. A year when City had de Bruyne and Liverpool had Firmino. We accepted - and rewarded - utter mediocrity. It's Manchester Uniteds fault though, not Lingards. He was just shit.
Oh I’m not for a second suggesting Lingard would’ve gone on to be world class. I also wouldn’t say he had a potential anywhere near as high as Rashford or Pogba. Just that the culture at United didn’t develop him into a mature, focused footballer who was able to maximise the potential he did have.
Yes, instead, he was the fittest among them all. This is just a lame attempt to put blame on certain individuals.
He didnt destroyed it, wasnt his fault club put out with his and Pogba and Rashford's nonsense.
All these people going on about why shouldn’t they have “fun” show me examples of City and Liverpool players having fun over the last 10 years, you never see any of them acting like Lingard and the rest of the wasters we’ve had
The people condoning it are as big a problem and it’s cause of them that the likes of Shaw is here 10 years
The people condoning it are as big a problem and it’s cause of them that the likes of Shaw is here 10 years
The people that destroyed United were the board and staff in senior positions making silly decisions over and over again, which you could argue include holding on to players like Lingard, Rashford and Pogba for too long and also not making sure that their tiktok dancing was nipped in the bud. The trio are the scapegoats because they were putting in stinky performances more often than not while putting out those videos but better management would have made sure that if they were shit they weren't playing and if they were shit they'd definitely not be making tiktok dancing videos.
Good summary
Good on Jesse for clapping back. I never got the level of vitriol directed towards him for hanging out with Marcus, wearing urban fashion, larking around in far more harmless ways than some other young footballers with time and money do. The way he was slagged off for taking the mickey out of those yobos trying to smash up the United bus is another instance of the sniping at him.
Yes, he was too much on social media like the majority of his generation, should have exercised more discretion and remembered he was playing for an extremely scrutinised club. However, all the holier than thou condemnation of him when he was on vacation with Marcus, they had female company and he was commentating from the hotel rooms without showing any action or exposing the legal age, consenting women there, was over the top.
I never saw Jesse let United down on the pitch, he always busted his guts, and was proud to pull on the red shirt along with Marcus as one of the homegrown. He didn`t have some team mates` natural abilities but he had a better work ethic than most. He and Marcus and Paul Pogba needed a manager like Sir Alex and mentors like Rio and Patrice Evra, all three of them struggled in a post Sir Alex United just like some other players.
I've had an irrational dislike for this bloke ever since I spotted his clothing line while surfing.
I know he's one of hundreds of footballers that have a sideline, especially in clothing, but it just really irked me that someone of his limited ability was hawking dropshipped hoodies with daft logos.
Ronaldo selling boxer shorts, no issue, it's Ronaldo, he's World famous and one of the best players ever. Beckham selling crap aftershave, it's Beckham, one of the most handsome men on the planet and also a World class player in his time, also World famous.
Lingard though? Very lucky to get as many top level appearances as he did, as well as England caps. It's no surprise that since he left United/England I've heard diddly squat about him other than he couldn't find a club, and now this thread. Where even is he, I'm guessing Korea by the thread title. Do they even have a league?
For me, him, Pogba and Rashford really sunk United down a level with their PR nonsense, Sancho would have made 4 if they'd all been in same dressing room, and God help United if Lee Sharpe had been there with them. It's like all 3 used the club as a platform to make themselves richer/more famous. Football seemed a sideline to their influencer aspirations.
I know he's one of hundreds of footballers that have a sideline, especially in clothing, but it just really irked me that someone of his limited ability was hawking dropshipped hoodies with daft logos.
Ronaldo selling boxer shorts, no issue, it's Ronaldo, he's World famous and one of the best players ever. Beckham selling crap aftershave, it's Beckham, one of the most handsome men on the planet and also a World class player in his time, also World famous.
Lingard though? Very lucky to get as many top level appearances as he did, as well as England caps. It's no surprise that since he left United/England I've heard diddly squat about him other than he couldn't find a club, and now this thread. Where even is he, I'm guessing Korea by the thread title. Do they even have a league?
For me, him, Pogba and Rashford really sunk United down a level with their PR nonsense, Sancho would have made 4 if they'd all been in same dressing room, and God help United if Lee Sharpe had been there with them. It's like all 3 used the club as a platform to make themselves richer/more famous. Football seemed a sideline to their influencer aspirations.
Fair enough perspective though Jesse`s `fashion branding` ventures never annoyed me because it was done as a private business venture which was going to be successful or fail on its merits or lack thereof. I know there`s less reason for a player who doesn`t have star status/recognition power to put out their own clothing line and players who make the first team of a club like Manchester United should be set for life on their salary alone if they make the right financial investments etc.
I think Jesse, Marcus and Paul are products of their generation - their way of looking at things and doing things is very different from somebody born in the 80s let alone 70s or 60s. The normalisation of putting your life on social media is a key one, sports people do that and have agents/PR people encouraging them to maintain a high profile though Jesse`s vacation postings I mentioned were the type that should have been avoided. Much as I think the outrage was manufactured to some extent.
I don`t think football was a sideline to all their self promotional/influencer activities but certainly somebody like Sir Alex had he stayed manager or been in the beginning of his United career at that point in time probably would have pushed United for ways to handle it all.
Ferguson had problems with Beckham staying down in London then driving up to Manchester for training/games, being an increasing presence in the media along with Victoria and then doing self promotional tours of Asia when he became England captain. People forget or don`t know how much Beckham used the captaincy for even more commercial gain including using the England strip for his own campaigns when he didn`t have permission.
Of course a key difference between Beckham and those lads is that what Alex Ferguson saw as an increasing focus of Beckham on his brand at the expense of his identity as a Manchester United player came after Beckham`s powerhouse performances to help win titles and the European Cup, FA Cup and the Premier League in the Treble Year. The lack of focus and disagreements with Ferguson came later.
When his agent was putting out the Real Madrid feelers and he was getting his PR to feed the media the allegation that United giving him a contract and asking him to sign it was somehow telling him they didn`t want him, nobody could take away his record with United and the fact that he was a crucial part of United`s success. Regardless of the reasons, Jesse, Marcus and Paul cannot be placed in the same context.
Awesome reply, deserves a like that does. From a newbie, thank you. This is why I read Redcafe for so long, replies like this are just pure education as well as entertainment. If I I could give you a tip for that reply, I would.
You've changed my thinking on a few things for sure, very eloquent and concise reasoning.
Mentioning Sir Alex definitely got me thinking, would he have changed those lads or just binned them off. I think Pogba and Lingard would have been goners but he'd have worked with Rashford.
All speculation though, even someone as legendary as SAF made mistakes and couldn't get a tune out of every player. I'm old enough to remember him selling Stam and thinking that was one of the most stupid things a manager could do. Even now when people talk about Terry, Rio, Vidic, VvD etc being the best defenders ever, there's a voice in my brain that always goes 'clearly never watched Stam.'
I believe other than Rooney, no other player has ever criticised Pogba that I’m aware off. In fact, most have complimented him and said he’s a true leader and humble behind the dressing room.
I can only think of his antics against Mourhino.
People get mixed up with the playing ability and attitude. Jesse is a limited player, he runs a lot and gets into good positions. He was never going to be a star player, that’s life. Pogba similarly, he was never going to have a good defensive work rate or fit in the 2 midfielders role.
If anything, we have mismanaged a world class talent we had at the time and let him be exposed becoming worst whilst the pundits piled on him. Notice most French players back him and say United ask too much of him.
The culture shift changed when Ferguson left and new managers came in. Nothing to do with the players, Ruben seems to be bringing it back.
I can only think of his antics against Mourhino.
People get mixed up with the playing ability and attitude. Jesse is a limited player, he runs a lot and gets into good positions. He was never going to be a star player, that’s life. Pogba similarly, he was never going to have a good defensive work rate or fit in the 2 midfielders role.
If anything, we have mismanaged a world class talent we had at the time and let him be exposed becoming worst whilst the pundits piled on him. Notice most French players back him and say United ask too much of him.
The culture shift changed when Ferguson left and new managers came in. Nothing to do with the players, Ruben seems to be bringing it back.
Pogba had enough physical and technical gifts that he could have played any position right across midfield if only he'd applied himself.
Surfing the web? Or at the sea?
Both mate, I'm multi-talented.
Cooke was destroyed by injuries.
Greening better than Lingard? You’re having a laugh
they didn’t ruin the culture, the problem was that they weren’t man united players.
I find it weird how far people will still go to defend the attitude of a player who has literally been involved in voodoo blackmailing a team mate, some kind of family gun feud, and has also committed himself so entirely to football that he's been banned from playing it.
Probably you just need to accept that Pogba wasn't actually a world class player. He was sometimes very good, sometimes very shit, and that has been the pattern of his whole career.
The club becoming a commercial enterprise and being overseen by Woodward for a decade is what ruined the culture.
Lingard I feel like just copped a lot of the flack because he liked to dance and prat about and then went off the rails performance wise. A club with a better "culture" wouldn't have kept him there on an inflated wage and then not let him play for several years after..
Lingard I feel like just copped a lot of the flack because he liked to dance and prat about and then went off the rails performance wise. A club with a better "culture" wouldn't have kept him there on an inflated wage and then not let him play for several years after..
Fergie offered Pogba a very good deal and sent senior players to try to convince him to stay. I'd hardly say he 'make the call to let him go' just because he wouldn't promise him the playing time he wanted, just like he wouldn't promise it to anyone else.
Ultimately, it was Pogba's decision to leave, and it was probably a decent one looking at what happened with him at Juventus.
What happened with him at Juventus? Serie A was a one team league in that period, as both Milan teams had dropped off a cliff and there were no other serious challengers.
In one of the seasons he was there Juventus won the league with 102 points, but ended up getting eliminated from a CL group containing Copenhagen and Galatasaray with just one win, and were then eliminated from the Europa League by Benfica.
Fergie may have offered him a deal, but he was ultimately happy to let him go, and Fergie would have been the one to make the call not to move heaven and earth to keep him.
What happened with him at Juventus was that he got tons of playing time, did really well and became a better and better player.
As for Fergie, he was not happy to let him go. That's just revisionism. He did all he could to keep him. It's no different to United trying to sign players in recent years, then tell the world 'we dropped our interest him them' once it was clear they were going elsewhere.
He clearly didn't do everything he could because he didn't actually play him.
I'm also not arsed arguing about Pogba.
He got too big for his boots at United, did alright playing for the one team in a one team league, then came back to United and let his career slide into the gutter.
No manager should play anyone just in order to convince him to stay, and Fergie would certainly never do that. Doesn't mean he didn't do anything he reasonably could to keep him.
The point being that those two players played in the same dressing room as the players the poster mentioned above did and it didn't do a thing for their careers, they were the players they were - decent players but ultimately nothing players too.
So in many ways, much the same, ability wise, as Lingard, and did close to as much. An absolutely nothing player, playing 149 games as a number 10 for man Utd, on silly money, all while City had de Bruyne and Liverpool had Firmino. A symptom of the absolute eradication of standards at Man Utd that Cristiano mentioned when he came back. Your 10 is normally your best player, creator and goalscorer. Think of the names that have played that position for us. And even the one that came after - Bruno did more for us in 20 games than Lingard did for us in his career.
Ferguson would have shipped him out after a season or two, no doubt about that. Just never good enough.
Is he available...?
Pogba isn’t a world class player? Eh? No ones defending Pogba, just stating the manhunt from the media on him when he was a United player. He failed to live up to his expectations but one could argue he was mismanaged.
He was pretty weak at defending. He had enough talent in the dribbling and passing department which stood out. Maybe if he worked on it he could have been something else but I guess that let him down.
He could have been good at defending if he wanted to be. He's big guy with a great physique as well as his techinical gifts.
But all he was ever interested in doing was roaming about in a free role trying to show how skillful he is.
Thanks very much for your positive response. Interesting point re what Sir Alex would have done with Paul, Jesse and Marcus.
Paul P has always had a huge self belief and it`s seen rightly or wrongly as a resistance to being managed. Sir Alex gave him opportunities but let him go as a young one because he didn`t share Pogba`s opinion of what he should be doing in the MU team. I think that would have continued and Pogba would have been on his way.
I think Sir Alex would have handled the too frequent/inappropriate social media posting and told Jesse and Co. to cut the dancing because you don`t celebrate failure. I think he would have successfully dealt with Jesse and Marcus as individuals as well as football players. He would have approved of Jesse`s work ethic and focused on getting Marcus` mindset right and it`s likely they would have respected him enough to fit in with his plans.
As for Jaap Stam, I remember that like yesterday. One day he was one of the outstanding defenders in the Premier League, the next he was gone, given the bum`s rush out of Old Trafford. That was one of the inglorious episodes of Sir Alex`s time at United. Staam was confused by it until he realised it was connected with something he`d said for his book - and from my recollection it wasn`t a big deal but to Sir Alex it was. Jaap always came across as a respectful man and serious about his role in the team, apprently was well liked in the dressing room.
Getting rid of Jaap was obviously a footballing mistake. If you or anybody can remember what he said about Sir Alex in his book then let me know. But I`ve always thought footballers shouldn`t have authorised autobiographies or biographies published about them until they retire.
The Staam incident is somewhat similar to the Keano fallout with Sir Alex about that horse he was given a vanity share in and had a legal dispute with Magnier about - I think the racehorse`s owners name is Magnier. Keano told him to not get involved with any of that and Sir Alex didn`t like Keano`s giving advice on the matter which seems to have caused a significant rift only apparent later.
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Crazy to be playing in Korea.
But still a 'young' lad isnt he, etc etc
But still a 'young' lad isnt he, etc etc
Like that cheesy happy hardcore track, Lingard will be Forever Young.
I remembered why Jaap Staam was given the bum`s rush out of the club - in his book he referred more or less to United tapping him when he was playing in the Netherlands. Then after he was sold like lightning to Lazio when his book came out, he was in trouble for having a banned substance in his blood which apparently other players in the Netherlands national team had.
Apologists for Sir Alex`s actions said that was why but it seems a case of wise after the fact. It was the book`s reference to tapping and Sir Alex would have been furious about it - which explains the here today, gone tomorrow with no explanations. If it had been about doping in the Dutch team, I`m fairly sure it would have been discussed with Jaap privately. The official version put out at the time was that Jaap was sold because he`d lost pace but again, he wouldn`t have been out of there like that if it had been the case.
Jaap was a great defender and apparently well liked and seen as a good bloke at the club, had a good relationship with Sir Alex. The directness of his giving away how United approached him when it shouldn`t have was the reason.
Apologists for Sir Alex`s actions said that was why but it seems a case of wise after the fact. It was the book`s reference to tapping and Sir Alex would have been furious about it - which explains the here today, gone tomorrow with no explanations. If it had been about doping in the Dutch team, I`m fairly sure it would have been discussed with Jaap privately. The official version put out at the time was that Jaap was sold because he`d lost pace but again, he wouldn`t have been out of there like that if it had been the case.
Jaap was a great defender and apparently well liked and seen as a good bloke at the club, had a good relationship with Sir Alex. The directness of his giving away how United approached him when it shouldn`t have was the reason.