Ok guys, I've now also watched that beans vid and I'm ITK.
LET'S GO BEANS BEANS BEANS aw yea.
LET'S GO BEANS BEANS BEANS aw yea.
Jesse Lingardinho
- Thread starter Zoo
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Beano, Beano, Beano!
I'm an Auckland FC season ticket holder, he wouldn't get near our first team. Players need to run, we don't carry passengers.
Ha. No offense mate. I did think that was the quality he had here for a while, he worked hard, though he is about as immature as one could be. Under Jose his work ethic was great.
Pizza
Nobody could say that Lingard never ever put the graft in. We could label him many things but work shy he wasn’t
And he's an exceptionally nice person as well. I remember playing with the youths in a friendly match in Malta and he was the only one to come and celebrate his goals near the fans. The rest didn't even bother. It's a shame that we lacked the discipline and the structure to develop Lingard and the others while keeping them in line, away from the hype and the distractions that celebrity status bring (Rashford, Pogba, Garnacho and co). We lost an entire generation of highly talented players that could have gone toe to toe with the class of 92
Nice story Dev. Thanks for sharing
Yeah, totally. That was his biggest attribute.
Thanks for sharing. I agree that we had a lot of talent that went wayward, but it did so for multiple reasons and it is hard to compare it to the mid 90s. For one, they did not get exorbitant wages before making a name for themselves, and even then, it was in a different galaxy to what it is now. Reminder that we gave Rashford a 250K deal at 21. None of the actually homegrown players would have had a Raiola agent either. I'm sure he got a lot of money for his clients, but I also think he did not do Pogba any favours in terms of career development, mostly from the point of view of maturity. Obviously coming into mishmash teams created by various managers that include mercenaries and a host of grossly overpaid average players is vastly different to the United of the 90s. And more generally, player power has risen massively in the last 15 years or so.
Now, I'm not saying the club can not do a lot better here. It's actually quite hard to gauge. But what does the club do with a Ravel today? Loan him out to Lausanne for two years and send a development coach there with him, functioning as a PI? What do you do with a Pogba who has all the talent in the world and an agent that will completely undermine your structure and demand everything at once and upset the balance of the dressing room?
First and foremost you need absolutely outstanding humans to work with them at all levels of the club. I have no idea how amazing or non-amazing the people at the club are in this regard.
I think the JJ Gabriel case is a litmus test. We cannot pander to him, we cannot give him an exorbitant wage as soon as he can sign a professional deal, we should not feature him in matches for which he's not ready emotionally. We need to have a clear structure from which we do not veer away from, even if it means losing talent, even generational talent. I guess what is required is principles.
edit: also society today is way way harder for them to navigate in the public eye, obviously.
Things are a bit more complicated these days. There's social media, players can feck off on a jet after training only to return knackered the morning after etc. However most of the things could be prevented. I remember Ryan Giggs at age 18 and he was immense. He had the looks and more talent in his right toe then all the players I've mentioned altogether. Forget, Ronaldo, when Giggs was in the mood he was frigging unstoppable. There was a game when he was supposed to be sick against Juventus only to show up and make a mess out of one of the best defenses in the world. After the game a clearly irritated Lippi came out saying that 'thank god Giggs was sick because god knows what a fit Giggs would have done'
United back in the day was a well oiled FOOTBALL CLUB. Kids were closely monitored and if there was a bad apple he'll be kicked out before anyone even notice (ex GIllespie who was offloaded for next to nothing). Game time was carefully given taking not only experience into account but whether the kids in question were mature enough to handle first team football. A classic case of that was Cristiano Ronaldo. If he dribbled 1 too many, SAF would put him on the bench for the next game irrespective of opposition and how goals he scored in that game. Fast forward to Woodward's era and you've got a club who actually use the social media footprint of their own players as proof of how popular the club is. Post SAF and pre INEOS we had become less of a football club and more of a brand.
I am not blaming everything on the club. Each and every player must act responsibly at all time. However kids tend to be immature and must be protected to thrive, sometimes even from themselves.
I may be wrong here but I don't remember him being that much of an outlier in terms of 'hard working' later on when he was an established first teamer.
When he first started out during LVG's time (and that infamous wingback performance against Swansea I think?) I had thought we had a tactically versatile and technically decent youth product but after that, when he got in the team in a wide role or behind the striker, I don't remember 'wow he's working really hard'. In games when perhaps he was tasked with a specific role yeah but most of the time I was thinking 'whytf is this limited player, who doesn't really show for the ball, do much on it and makes our midfield so worse playing in front of Pogba?'. It's not like he was making lung busting runs off the ball and pressing like a maniac.
His work rate was alright for his talent, nothing more. Herrera was an example of hard working.
@MadDogg thoughts?
When he first started out during LVG's time (and that infamous wingback performance against Swansea I think?) I had thought we had a tactically versatile and technically decent youth product but after that, when he got in the team in a wide role or behind the striker, I don't remember 'wow he's working really hard'. In games when perhaps he was tasked with a specific role yeah but most of the time I was thinking 'whytf is this limited player, who doesn't really show for the ball, do much on it and makes our midfield so worse playing in front of Pogba?'. It's not like he was making lung busting runs off the ball and pressing like a maniac.
His work rate was alright for his talent, nothing more. Herrera was an example of hard working.
@MadDogg thoughts?
"He makes great runs" was one of the few positives people used to try and say for him, if I remember correctly. So probably linked to that way of thinking.
I would say though that I'm sure players did some indefensible things back then and things were just hushed and it was likely easier to obstruct justice. But yes, it's a trickier reality to navigate for young footballers just like young people in general, it is super super fecked up.
I think this forum invented the 'defensive 10' position for him
It was defensive winger, also it was invented long back when Kuyt was playing.
Yeah perhaps. I'm not saying he was lazy but I honestly don't remember thinking 'he's going above board to make his team mate's job easier', which was my main issue with him. He wasn't good enough on or off the ball period, so the fact he only had a 'normal' work rate exasperated the fact he was in such important positions whilst we had superior players like Pogba needing to provide to him and do his job. Feck sakes, makes me mad thinking about that whole Mourinho period already.
I approve of this thread title. JLingz and Kditz innit
Or something.
Or something.
Of course they did and I understand your point. However see it this way. Yamal, Gavi and Cubarsi are coming up at a club as big as ours. At Real there's Camavigna and Bellingham. So ask yourself why these players stay on lane while our not? Why they are kept away from the limelight while ours do not? Maybe because they play for proper football clubs rather then brands who would whore their own mother for a couple of clicks?
Then I remember what Paolo Maldini said about AC Milan's golden era. When a new player comes in they used to tell him not to worry about anything apart from football. Everything from finding an apartment, to fill it with furniture right to find a good school for their children or even ordering flowers for their girlfriends will be done by the club. The club was even strategic about it. For example if you happen to be French then the club would find an apartment close to your French teammate. But that's not all. The club would give a success bonus to everyone from the finest player to the fitness coach right to the least insignificant of employees. So imagine the mood when you as a player had just lost a CL final and suddenly everyone is angry at you from the tea lady to the gardener right to the guy whose washing your car at the club. Suddenly every game becomes important because you really wouldn't want to be in that atmosphere.
Would you upload a picture of you dabbing?
Being Dutch, he might interpret that as a marijuana reference.
I'm not sure those are good examples. Yamal seems to have issues with his lifestyle, while Gavi by most accounts is professional. Camavinga and Bellingham are expensive recruits and as such not really comparable to players you bring through. And in any case, what I've seen from Bellingham so far seems to be an outstanding athlete with enormous attitude issues.
Milan in the 90s is also not comparable to the modern world.
To quote yourself, things are indeed a lot more complicated these days.
I think you’re being harsh on him. Lingard for example always showed up in big games and got some big game winners
He would actually have been a perfect player for an Amorim system
Agree. He scored in cup finals. He was a good player for a time. Nothing v wrong with having players like him in the squad. We should just have moved him on earlier. It’s ludicrous we didn’t get a fee for him.
He's like a lesser version of Mount but a lot fitter.
Yeah that's spot on actually, also less disciplined
Yep, it’s no surprise that Mount played virtually the same role as Lingard did for England under Southgate.
Lingard should of been treated like what he was, a squad player. Like a Gibson or cleverly. Good enough for here and there, used for a couple of years then sold. Thats what would of happened under SAF. However it was our poor leadership that blew smoke up his ass and gave him crazy wages. Woodward was detrimental in creating monsters in our squad and player power. How did his career go after he left United? Not good. Exactly how most predicted. He was at United way to long. But at that time we were so poorly run he believed his own hype. However that was our fault. We created that attitude and atmosphere.
We messed up not selling him after the West Ham loan. We could have got decent money for him and moved on.
He did have a quite a few big game moments and I will always be grateful for that but on the whole he was put into positions where he just wasn't good enough. Remember that crazy stat where he didn't assist/score for over a year in the league whilst playing essentially behind the striker/10 position most of that time?
I don't mind his effort, I just don't think it was anything above average and just like McTominay was played far too many times. That's on the manager for me. Average squad players playing as first teamers in the most important roles.
As for Amorim, I'm not sure at all. He would be terrible in CM, ill suited at wingback and he would be showing the same limitations in the inside 10 role with not enough finesse, productivity or ability in the final third. Wouldn't even be worth thinking about him in a false 9/striker role. Someone to come on, run about, be a body and maybe when chasing a game for the last 10-15? Sure.
I think you’re being harsh on him, just like a lot in the day because they didn’t like his personality.
It’s wrong to say that he had no quality. There was a time when he got the nickname Messi Lingard because of what he was doing on the pitch.
Then when he got a loan move to WH, it’s fair to say he lit the place up
To say that he would be rubbish as a wingback suggests you didn’t really watch him much. As a wingback on his Birmingham debut he scored 4 times. When lvg brought him into the team it was as a wingback. Unfortunately injuries did him both times.
Fair to criticize inconsistency but don’t continue the narrative that he had no quality
It’s wrong to say that he had no quality. There was a time when he got the nickname Messi Lingard because of what he was doing on the pitch.
Then when he got a loan move to WH, it’s fair to say he lit the place up
To say that he would be rubbish as a wingback suggests you didn’t really watch him much. As a wingback on his Birmingham debut he scored 4 times. When lvg brought him into the team it was as a wingback. Unfortunately injuries did him both times.
Fair to criticize inconsistency but don’t continue the narrative that he had no quality
I've never really been emotionally attached to any of our players or cared much for what they did in their personal lives/off the pitch (i.e on social media, interviews etc) as long as they weren't cnuts. Of course I am bias but I pretty much only judged on their performances.
Also I didn't say he had no quality, I'm saying he didn't have enough quality for the amount of time he was on the pitch, which I've noted is as much to blame as on the manager (Mourinho). As for him at wingback, could he do a job? Yeah sure, the same way Mount could do a job there but I would not want him as a first or second choice. I've watched him plenty, if you check my previous post several up, I even mentioned remembering his game against Swansea (which I've checked and was correct) when he started for LVG at wingback at that promising early season.
In a wingback role, he's not a good dribbler, not great in tight spaces, didn't have any notable crossing technique and that's without mentioning next to very little defending experience in and around his own box. He could work if we were a team dominating possession and you had only asked him to provide width, overlaps and make runs but why would you do that for a player who wouldn't raise the bottom level anyways? He wasn't like Valencia with supreme athletic ability, who was genuinely hard working and was capable of very good ball carrying on top of being an actual penetrative force.
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It will be a bit strange to see him playing here in the Brazilian league.
Remo returned to the first division this season after 21 years.
Remo returned to the first division this season after 21 years.
I agree, it was in an era where we were desperate to manufacture an 'identity' and we decided being home grown was the only qualification needed for a massive contract. We're still haunted by that today.
I don't hold any particular animosity with Lingard really. Arguably he was the first player in modern times to exemplify that no matter how evidently below standard you are - if you come from the academy - a sizable chunk of the fan base will need to be dragged kicking and screaming from the insistence that you'll 'come good'. You still see the moment fans go full on Lingard about a player. They decide he's going to be world class and will refuse to let small nit-picky details such as the evidence of his career get in the way of this assertion.
Lingard
noun (informal, football slang)
go full Lingard
1. To defend an underperforming academy graduate with unwavering optimism, insisting they are destined to become world‑class despite extensive evidence to the contrary, often emphasising their supposed youth even when they are about to turn 30.
Bit young to be heading to South America, isn't he?
He's fine, Andrew's in custody
Lingard was fine as a squad player for most of his time here. The issue was that he often wasn't just a squad player; he was starting too many of the games. But that was generally the fault of some of our big money signings failing, with Lingard (for all his faults) performing better than them and, more importantly, the team as a whole functioning better with him starting.
Mata tends to be remembered fondly, was signed for big money and was on much higher wages, yet for a few years there Lingard was regularly better or at least at the same level. Even in Lingard's first absolutely terrible season where it all fell apart (19/20) it tends to be forgotten that Mata was also absolutely abysmal that season. There's a reason both of them ended up losing their spot in the second half of the season, as it almost felt like they were in a race to see who could be worse.
Obviously it all went wrong for a few years at the end, but Lingard's first four or so seasons in the first team were exactly what we want our youth team to be providing more regularly. A decent squad level player who can slot in to the team, work hard, and keep the starting players on their toes. Then at some point sell them for a good amount and reinvest that money into the team as hopefully another youth player steps up to the first team. We just failed with the last bit, although nobody could have seen how dramatically his fall off would be.
Officially a Corinthians player
Fish 'n' Chips?
Should've went with beans, missed opportunity
Eu disse feijões, feijões, feijões