Jim Thwaites

SparkedIntoLife said:
You raise some very good points. Any idea, though, why we have such a paltry amount of players in the England youth sides than many other teams? I'm not saying it's a 100% barometer of academy health, in the same way that it can't be said that results at youth level automatically equate to producing great players for the first team or to be sold on to clubs at a high level. It's puzzling, though.



There was some narrative that Amorim would come in and promote like 20 youngsters as he did at Sporting and would save the day. He put the kibosh on that very quickly but you're right - he was very much in the self preservation game. I do think we can overrate our youth system though.
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I think maybe one of the factors is travel. Both for the players themselves and for the England staff that are watching them.

Looking it up the England training base is St. George's Park in Burton-Upon-Trent in Staffordshire so thats a South Western location and quite some way from Manchester. I know there are still some players from Northern clubs, transfermarkt has 5 players from Northern clubs in its England under 18s section - 4 from City and Mantato from United. I wonder who pays for the travel of the players and if its England themselves are they prioritizing the players from City who they rate and use and then are looking to save some money on not bringing more United, Liverpool and Newcastle players down or something. Or is it the clubs? Maybe they dont want to spend on it. One thing at least in recent years is that City have played very young teams which resulted in yes, having worse results than us but younger players got experience at those levels earlier and they still finished top. So that might be a factor why England might favour some of the City players

Another factor is that this is a United forum. And United play in the Northern division against other Northern teams. And yes there are a few matches between the winners of north and south divisions and cups, but its really a whole league season that proves how good a player is and not so much one off matches. So I think that while our own young players are good, of course other clubs also have good young players and just watching United's youth you arent going to see much of the Southern players. I think there should be more than 1 Utd player in the England under 18s but from my own awareness of some of the other players in the squad from other clubs, the ones I've actually seen play or have an awareness of them from goals and asssist stats, I dont really see anyone there that I would argue doesnt deserve a spot. Its hard and its subjective and we have an inherant bias from watching United's youth but probably not watching the other teams as much.

Looking at the u19s theres more Northern players there around 9 and yeah we only have Jack Fletcher there. I think you could certainly argue Lacey should be in there but perhaps they arent convinced yet about his fitness/injuries and giving him extra games. Tyler might have been considered but hes chosen Scotland and is the captain. Fitzgerald again like Lacey has had some fitness issues, but both used to play in the England youth before then. Either a case of not being sure with fitness or other players took the oppertunities while they were injured and are now considered ahead. I personally would say I havent been more impressed by one of the other rightback options than Kamasson and he hasnt played since the under 16s, although I've certainly seen and heard the name Leo Shahar. Is he better? Maybe he is and the England selection is correct. I havent seen him enough to know.
 
England u18s are currently 2008 born which we’ve had 6 players involved in the England setup. The majority of our 2008s are born later in the year too.

Mantato has always been a starter.
Ibragimov by all means isn’t a UK citizen so can’t play in real matches.
Kukonki is in and out of the team.
Jay McEvoy has played for England, Northern Ireland and Ireland.
Rafe McCormack has played for England but also switched to Ireland where he and McEvoy get to play a higher age group.
Ngwashi has also been in England squads but suffers as an end of year birth who players a lower age group for club.

We then have players for other countries like Bradbury for Wales. Neithan Barbosa attended a Portugal camp.

Then some slip through the crack like Yuel Helafu.
 
Ekeke said:
I think maybe one of the factors is travel. Both for the players themselves and for the England staff that are watching them.

Looking it up the England training base is St. George's Park in Burton-Upon-Trent in Staffordshire so thats a South Western location and quite some way from Manchester. I know there are still some players from Northern clubs, transfermarkt has 5 players from Northern clubs in its England under 18s section - 4 from City and Mantato from United. I wonder who pays for the travel of the players and if its England themselves are they prioritizing the players from City who they rate and use and then are looking to save some money on not bringing more United, Liverpool and Newcastle players down or something. Or is it the clubs? Maybe they dont want to spend on it. One thing at least in recent years is that City have played very young teams which resulted in yes, having worse results than us but younger players got experience at those levels earlier and they still finished top. So that might be a factor why England might favour some of the City players

Another factor is that this is a United forum. And United play in the Northern division against other Northern teams. And yes there are a few matches between the winners of north and south divisions and cups, but its really a whole league season that proves how good a player is and not so much one off matches. So I think that while our own young players are good, of course other clubs also have good young players and just watching United's youth you arent going to see much of the Southern players. I think there should be more than 1 Utd player in the England under 18s but from my own awareness of some of the other players in the squad from other clubs, the ones I've actually seen play or have an awareness of them from goals and asssist stats, I dont really see anyone there that I would argue doesnt deserve a spot. Its hard and its subjective and we have an inherant bias from watching United's youth but probably not watching the other teams as much.

Looking at the u19s theres more Northern players there around 9 and yeah we only have Jack Fletcher there. I think you could certainly argue Lacey should be in there but perhaps they arent convinced yet about his fitness/injuries and giving him extra games. Tyler might have been considered but hes chosen Scotland and is the captain. Fitzgerald again like Lacey has had some fitness issues, but both used to play in the England youth before then. Either a case of not being sure with fitness or other players took the oppertunities while they were injured and are now considered ahead. I personally would say I havent been more impressed by one of the other rightback options than Kamasson and he hasnt played since the under 16s, although I've certainly seen and heard the name Leo Shahar. Is he better? Maybe he is and the England selection is correct. I havent seen him enough to know.
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Thanks for these thoughts. There may be some political elements at play. Also I believe I heard that no United players were available for this week’s U16s squad selection due to a tournament we’re in. Perhaps City ‘play the game’ more in terms of what the FA wants from them and you might be right about them subsidising travel. Maybe United as well are less fussed about England youth experience whereas City might be more geared towards selling their youngsters on, so international accolades are more highly prized.
 
He was on the trip to Dublin from what I saw a couple of days ago but I saw that he took part in an u21 game recently
Was he only in in the training camp for a day or so?
 
He is one player that might not benefit from a loan due to the nature of lower league football. They need to put on a regimen to increase his speed/acceleration and strength over the next 2 summers. Play mainly Under-21 and occasional bench appearances next season and then move full time with the 1st team in the 27/28 season.
 
Bondi77 said:
He was on the trip to Dublin from what I saw a couple of days ago but I saw that he took part in an u21 game recently
Was he only in in the training camp for a day or so?
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Yes, I actually think being in that training camp means he's most likely gonna start making the bench before the end of the season. Depending on the situation he might even make his debut
 
Jim Thwaites: bloody good friend and an even better sales rep.
 
sleepehead said:
Yes, I actually think being in that training camp means he's most likely gonna start making the bench before the end of the season. Depending on the situation he might even make his debut
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Victor Musa was also in the training camp.
 
Bondi77 said:
Is he worth keeping?
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Honestly I don't think so, but I don't think we have a lot of ST options at the moment for the U21s. I think Chido will be out on loan next year and there's not really anyone else with quality after him. There's that French kid we signed a while ago but I don't know anything about him.

Biancheri and Wheatley are too good already and Bradbury is still the ST for u18s . I think they're just trying to keep him for another year
 
SubutaiScipio said:
Musa is not going to make the team. I am actually surprised that we have kept him for this long. I don't think there is any chance of an EPL footballer in him.
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That's not the only good reason for keeping a young player on though. And in fairness Adam Lawrence has always seemed to like him and thinks he has some potential.
 
TwoSheds said:
That's not the only good reason for keeping a young player on though. And in fairness Adam Lawrence has always seemed to like him and thinks he has some potential.
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Yes, i know that there are other reasons for keeping a young player, but he has always looked so below the technical standard i would expect for our academy. I hope he does well in senior football but i would be surprised.
 


Not many first team players can pull off 1:02 with their weaker foot.
 
If he keeps improving at this rate I can see Thwaites being like a another Garner or even a James Ward Prowse or something like that. Nice and tidy on the ball, not the most athletic or flashy but a good footballing brain and solid technique. He looks to have a solid set piece technique which will improve if he's let take them at a higher level
 
Great to see him on the bench yesterday. Good experience for him, though after playing 120 min the night before it was highly unlikely he'll get any minutes (not to mention it was improbable in this particular game)
 
Clearly this management has taken a shine to him and rates him very highly. Good to see.

Know a certain manager who’d have preferred to put two GKs on the bench.
 
Now that we are certain of CL next year, I'd give him and Fletcher some game time
 
Be lovely to have a centre mid with proper passing range again that isn't called Bruno.
 
TwoSheds said:
Be lovely to have a centre mid with proper passing range again that isn't called Bruno.
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operates the ball very well in space similar to Bruno. Not the fastest but always ready to create a bit of space for himself with a little dummy while his head up all the time. Great future if he stays injury-free.
 
Good omen if Carrick is calling you up to the senior team. If anyone knows a good quality CM you’d hope it’d be him…
 
mav_9me said:
It would be amazing if he got some game tine this season.
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Got to be coming soon, making a bench appearance is the second mark (first is practicing w/ 1st team). He's most likely getting a debut once we lock up CL. I'd love it if he came on for Bruno after he locks up the record
 
sleepehead said:
Got to be coming soon, making a bench appearance is the second mark (first is practicing w/ 1st team). He's most likely getting a debut once we lock up CL. I'd love it if he came on for Bruno after he locks up the record
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Dare I say at home to Nottingham in the past 10 mins if we are winning? Here's hoping.
 
There seems to be a lot of talented central midfielders at Man Utd in the 18-19 year old age bracket - the Fletchers, Devaney, Fitzgerald and Thwaites.

Obviously they aren't all going to make it as first team players here, so who has the highest potential ceiling of that group?
 
ArthurAlbistonIsAngry said:
There seems to be a lot of talented central midfielders at Man Utd in the 18-19 year old age bracket - the Fletchers, Devaney, Fitzgerald and Thwaites.

Obviously they aren't all going to make it as first team players here, so who has the highest potential ceiling of that group?
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Depends what you look for - Thwaites with the ball at his feet - Devaney as an all-round box-to-box midfielder
 
ArthurAlbistonIsAngry said:
There seems to be a lot of talented central midfielders at Man Utd in the 18-19 year old age bracket - the Fletchers, Devaney, Fitzgerald and Thwaites.

Obviously they aren't all going to make it as first team players here, so who has the highest potential ceiling of that group?
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Thwaites to me looks the best but Devaney is that really sensible, steady type who might get. the first chance. Bit like Nicky Butt did.

Only seen little bits of Fitzgerald but I think he looks rrally talented as well. Bit more size to him than the others.

Some of them just don't play enough football until they go out on loan.
 
Marwood said:
Thwaites to me looks the best but Devaney is that really sensible, steady type who might get. the first chance. Bit like Nicky Butt did.

Only seen little bits of Fitzgerald but I think he looks rrally talented as well. Bit more size to him than the others.

Some of them just don't play enough football until they go out on loan.
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We had both Fletchers make their debut this season; I’m only a casual follower now. Are they much further along the development stage?
 
Whitwell's article for the The Athletic said either Thwaites or fletcher will be promoted to the first team next season.

How diffierent as players are these two lads?
 
dinostar77 said:
Whitwell's article for the The Athletic said either Thwaites or fletcher will be promoted to the first team next season.

How diffierent as players are these two lads?
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Very different, Thwaites is like a Kroos/Wharton type where his passing especially from deep is his forte. And Tyler is more box to box physical type, probably like Mctominay/Fred. And Jack Fletcher is an attacking mid who has the ability to score some really good goals
 
sleepehead said:
Very different, Thwaites is like a Kroos/Wharton type where his passing especially from deep is his forte. And Tyler is more box to box physical type, probably like Mctominay/Fred. And Jack Fletcher is an attacking mid who has the ability to score some really good goals
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It would make more sense if Devaney was promoted to the first team
 
sleepehead said:
Very different, Thwaites is like a Kroos/Wharton type where his passing especially from deep is his forte. And Tyler is more box to box physical type, probably like Mctominay/Fred. And Jack Fletcher is an attacking mid who has the ability to score some really good goals
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Thanks. Will watch out for Thwaites when he does get his first team minutes, having a home grown player who can pass from deep will be a nice addition to the squad
 
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Obviously it'll take time and is far from guaranteed but a Thwaites/Mainoo midfield won't be giving the ball away much. Will pass teams to death.
 
Marwood said:
Obviously it'll take time and is far from guaranteed but a Thwaites/Mainoo midfield won't be giving the ball away much. Will pass teams to death.
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Youth football is completely different to men’s game. While its good to imagine this, its really tough to say this with any certainity .
 

I didn’t watch it, but here are his highlights from the Liverpool game.

I’ve got high hopes for him with the technical qualities he has, but we’ll see.
 
Silas said:

I didn’t watch it, but here are his highlights from the Liverpool game.

I’ve got high hopes for him with the technical qualities he has, but we’ll see.
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I caught some of it. Liverpool just couldn't get the ball off him. Even if they got close, his ability to shield the ball, ride challenges and turn under pressure just meant he'd keep the ball regardless.

This kid 100% watches de Jong with all the la pelopina turns he does.
 
So if we sell Ugarte and buy 2 midfielders, is he the favorite to join the first team and be the 4th CM behind Mainoo and the 2 signings?
 
NoPace said:
So if we sell Ugarte and buy 2 midfielders, is he the favorite to join the first team and be the 4th CM behind Mainoo and the 2 signings?
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I think he's going to be introduced this season, I actually think he's the Mainoo replacement when he gets subbed out. His game is different and there will be questions if he's strong enough to play, but he looks like he's got quality. I don't know if he's ready to be in the 1st team yet though. He needs an offseason to get stronger, because I don't think he's strong enough to be one of the midfield pivots yet.

I think one of Gore/Moorehouse/Collyer/Fletcher twins is the academy player that's gonna be with the 1st team. Thwaites I think is being brought in more slowly. Even Devaney is a better shout since he's actually playing against grown men consistently.
 
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