I wonder if he's rated ahead of dowman when they were both 15?
JJ Gabriel | 2026/27 Performances
- Thread starter Bastian
- Start date
- Status
Yea I agree.
I remember this debate when I first lurked the caf like 20 years ago.
A) It's just an off the top of the head opinion Wenger is wrapping up in a house metaphor he clearly likes. Cute, but one man's opinion.
B) Wenger isn't saying that players can't improve technically after 14(!) He's saying that if you have no technical ability at 14 you'll never be a professional footballer. Duh. The two are VERY different. Players' technically abilities can and almost always do improve after the age of 14(!) so aren't 'set in stone' at that age, as you said. I thought this would have been obvious to be fair based on watching football for years.
I can't think of a player who made a big improvement to their technique once they hit the adult team at least.
He's not saying that your technique is "pretty much set in stone" in your teens though. Players improve various parts of their technique throughout their later teens and 20s. The main foundation might need to be learned in your teens for modern football, but that's far from saying players just stop improving how they shoot, pass, dribble, first touch, control the ball, etc. You see players improve that stuff all the time in their 20s.
And he’s looked like a completely different player once he hit the men’s game
I would say that almost every player improves technically after the age of 14. Particularly once they start playing first team football. Playing at a higher level makes you think quicker, forces you to tidy up your control, play better in less space etc. All honing your technical ability.
Gary Neville
He never became technical though, he only saw a small improvement.
It is only minor though.
It's really not quantifiable so impossible to 'prove' either way. But the closer you get to the top, the finer (and more important) the margins become. I just think saying a player is as technically developed as they're going to be at 14 (or even before they start playing first team football) makes absolutely no sense.
I disagree. Lots of players improve key parts of their technique in their late teens and early twenties, becoming the best version of themselves in their mid to late 20s. Ronaldo is a good example - he had a good foundation early on but was raw. His dedication to training resulted in a much more consistent and effective shooting technique over time, especially off his weaker foot.
Well he couldn’t cross a ball when he first broke through and had issues with timing his runs. No surprise due to the fact he was primarily a CB at underage levels. Through hard work and practice, practice, practice he got much much better. I’d argue probably the best RB that England has produced
Of course it's going to look minor when you're comparing it to the skill gap between not being able to kick a ball at all and being one of the best on the planet at it. The players we're thinking about have to be at a certain level of technique to have the job in the first place. To get good enough to play in top leagues you usually need to have a large part of your technique down by your mid-teens. Not because you just stop being able to improve your technique, but because most players get overtaken by those that are more advanced if they're not there by then.
I would argue he was more technical when he was younger, he became more simplified later on.
Timing runs is not football technique, and yea he improved his cross but that's it, in general his technique didn't really change. You might be able to focus in on a skill to improve, but your general technique ability doesn't change much at all.
Absolutely. And Hannibal is genuinely a very good player. I fully expect him to make the step back up to a premier League team in the next couple of years.
There's obviously no way to know/judge but I think we are at a slightly increased hype level of youth players and JJ Gabriel / father? Kinda play into that a bit too.
Can you more clearly and specifically define what you mean by 'general technical ability'?
It seems as though you're acknowledging that you can improve key attributes which many would associate with technical skill by training, yet don't agree that technical ability improves after you're a teenager, which doesn't make much sense to me.
In what ways?
Because his shooting and finishing technique definitely improved. That was key to his dramatically improved goal scoring rate versus his teenage years.
Crossing is a technique? If you have improved your crossing, you have improved a key technical aspect of your game.
What about digging a hole for yourself? You’ve got better at that as you’ve aged fella
I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's talking about natural ability vs application. You can for instance improve your crossing but usually that's down to how you refine and apply your available technique. In other words you work with what you've got.
If that's not what he means I've no idea
Not sure why any of this is relevant to JJ though. I mainly came in to say he was excellent the other day.
Yeah, I think it's confusing technique with potential ability in this case.I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's talking about natural ability vs application. You can for instance improve your crossing but usually that's down to how you refine and apply your available technique. In other words you work with what you've got.
If that's not what he means I've no idea
Not sure why any of this is relevant to JJ though. I mainly came in to say he was excellent the other day.
More broadly I do think there's a tendency to associate technique almost exclusively with the pretty bits like dribbling and control in tight spaces, ignoring other (less sexy) skills which also require technique like heading, tackling or ball striking. Not relevant here but just a related observation.
Touch, close control, moving with the ball, general passing.
Yes and and you can work on a specific skill, but its limited.
His touch, close control, moving with the ball, passing, he was a more skillful player at united.
It's not though. Some players show significant improvement in various techniques. Which is not surprising when they spend years on repetitive practice of certain movements with a coaching team. Ronaldo is a prime example of that - the significant improvement is his goal scoring was underpinned by better consistency in shooting technique, which brings results.
Yep! That was the point I was making!
I thought Hannibal was overrated at youth level. Was never convinced he'd make it.
Gabriel is a whole level or two up from him.
Yeah, in that case I'd absolutely say you can improve to a decent extent technically (though I'd also say that technique should extend further than these facets). Having to play alongside better players forces you to hone your skillset, tidy your touch, get better at using your body and when to feint etc. Modric is a good example of someone who came on in leaps and bounds from his time pre spurs to Madrid.
Modric was always really good, its just we do not appreciate players like him like Spain does, him being underrated here is very English typical.
But he also improved, which is the point.
not technically, he got more experienced but he was always amazingly overlooked at spurs. RM wanted him for a reason.
He did. As did Ronaldo, as did countless others.
More broadly, the fact that you don’t think that by doing the same movements over and over again for years that your technique with those movements can improve then I don’t know what to say. You can apply this to any sport - professionals are able to improve and refine their technique over time. It’s not something that magically stops at 14 or something.
Last edited:
Technique is mostly coordination & motorskills, i.e. the ability to precisely trigger specific muscle fibers (and not others) at will and on an intuitive, subconscious level. You make leaps and bounds in these skills when you’re young. Imagine learning to walk, run jump. It’s pretty natural that your ability to learn those skills is strongest when you’re young and need the ability to learn the most.
You can still improve when you’re older, through countless repetitions. But for most, it will be other things than the base motor skills that improve in their twenties that can improve their application of those skills. Such as mental composure, stamina and endurance (try shooting after a 100m sprint - it’s not easy to be precise when you’re out of breath) etc.
I agree that his motorskills are among the best at the club and probably the best in the u21 leagues. That’s completely feasible by the age of 15. I’m sure Neymar, Messi, Yamal and others where there by the age of 15 too. Their consistent application of those skills improved considerably from that point, which is ultimately what counts.
As were Scholes, Carrick and now Mainoo. Peak Scholes had to deal with the cringey media hype surrounding Lampard and Gerrard, although I can't blame England managers for going with Lampard and Gerrard over Carrick, although the lack of balance in midfield always hurt England. But the Siberianization of Mainoo by Tuchel was completely indefensible. England may never have beaten Spain, but with better player management you could have beaten Argentina. Whatever it is about England managers, whether they are English or not, there is this ridiculous hero-worship of athletic beasts over more technical players like Scholes, Carrick and Mainoo.
He was always good, but his passing and control in tight areas as well as ability to play out of trouble improved significantly with experience. Also, what do you mean underrated? He's one of the best CMs of the last fifty years. Who's underrating him?
But also technique is refined through necessity. If you're only faced with U21 players and you never need to up your game in terms of ball manipulation in tight spaces, speed of thought etc, then you won't. Playing at senior level among better players is a steep learning curve and players improve significantly on these fronts as a result. Yes, baseline motor skills may be set early, but they're then honed from there by repetition and necessity. I think you're drawing an unnecessary distinction between application of the skills and the skills themselves, as both the skills themselves and their application together constitute technique. Also, not sure we can really discuss whether or not his motor skills are better than others at the club as there isn't any data available beyond the subjective and highly variable 'eye test'.
Last edited:
- Status