so put him out on the left similar to dowling for arsenal so that he's not under pressure to run the midfield plus it keeps him in open space
would be a bit silly not to give him a chance next season given now we are in the CL
JJ Gabriel
- Thread starter top1whoisman
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would be a bit silly not to give him a chance next season given now we are in the CL
I mean he's 15... I wouldn't expect him to actually start getting first team minutes until he's a few months into 17. The only kids who make a real first team impact is if they physically mature earlier like Rooney and Lukaku did. Gabriel still seems tiny and just not that type physically. I'm sure he's a huge exciting talent, the YouTube videos make him look like a Neymar style player... Well Neymar's first professional season in Brazil came at 17, and he didn't move to Europe until 21.
Maybe 2027/28 he might get some squad player minutes. Best case next season would be he gets some injury time minutes in a dead rubber just so he gets the exposure, but it wouldn't be any real minutes.
Garner has played as well as any midfielder in the PL this season, his development at Everton over the past 18 months or so has been extraordinary. Honestly did not see it happening back when he was at United but he is such a good player now.
so he's shown that the U18 level isn't a massive challenge so i suspect they'll push him to the u21's to start off the season which i think is the right choice yet still allowing him chances to train with the first team
but if we get a fixture in the carabao cup at home against a league one or two side....why not give him minutes with the first team in those types of matches?
Think it's definitely important to protect young players for multiple reasons. Physically so they don't start picking up injuries which hurts development is a big one, but also mentally to keep them grounded. Once he's ready physically and mentally, he'll make the step up I'm sure.
As excitable as people are about him getting first team minutes, if he is playing a men’s game and gets nailed leading to injury, the club would get slaughtered and considered incredibly irresponsible.
There’s more to consider than just talent with one so young and fragile.
Sorry I didnt clarify that I meant that in general, wasnt talking about United or any club in particular as every club has done it. Amorim was happy to get rid of our best young product in years.
Lots of clubs disregard what they have in the academy in favour of a new shiny toy that costs millions.
He might well be the most gifted homegrown player United has produced in years, but if he's physically still an adolescent, he should not be exposed to elite men's football and risk injury and erosion of confidence just because people around him are pushing for an ultra-fast tracking to the first team.
We gave a chance to Pogba...but HE decided to move on. It wasn't a United decision.
Pogba's reps weren't great, but SAF also slightly miscalculated. There were opportunities to give Pogba time when the CM had suffered injuries, Pogba was physically and technically capable of at least some kind of impact by that point if played alongside the likes of Carrick (he came into Juve and started flourishing in Serie A only a few months later with Pirlo) and SAF didn't give him game time. Again, partly because of MR's attempts to secure a larger contract offer, but it ended up costing the club with Pogba's return, the midfield issues the team faced in the interim.
People were criticizing the decision not to give him minutes at that juncture. A Pogba off the bench perhaps impacts a couple of those clutch matches in the 2012 run-in and denies City the title.
Post of the day material. If we were broke and desperately needed to shore up the LW position I'd be tempted to chuck JJ onto the pitch next season against PL clubs, but we're neither broke nor desperate.
Can a young player such as JJ train with the first team but play competitive matches for the U21s? That may not even make any development sense, but if it does make sense that might be an option to accelerate his development while still minimize his risk of serious injury against PL opponents who might want to cut down a 16 year old for the fun of it.
I expected better accuracy from a Manchester United Youth Historian.
He needs some kind of exposure (strategic), even if it's in select games and partly to illustrate to him how much he still needs to develop, otherwise the kid's off.
The club already had to promise early training involvement for them not to commit to Barca or City [or, I believe, unsurprisingly Chelsea, ]. United can't completely give into the whims of his camp, but it's a trade-off that recognises what you have to work with (is he sufficiently gifted for the hassle around his father, in particular, to be worth it? It seems like the club currently thinks so, even if they're unsure about the exact level of exposure he's going to enjoy).
Sub appearances in cup-games and strategic roles in the last 10 minutes of select matches, along with mixing his training and appearances with U21 ones are probably the way to go. Dowman was getting minutes at the same age as JJ will be in autumn, even though they were spaced out over months.
That all makes sense to me. My concern with having him go out on loan, which to my knowledge isn't in the cards for JJ but is something that we've done with quite a few academy players, is that they get stuck in a bad situation and hardly develop at all. Kids want competition action and not just training, but chucking them out onto the pitch against League One or Championship sides doesn't really seem to work out as intended most of the time.
Not really true, he complained about Phil Neville coming on in midfield before him.
On Gabriel, he should get some minutes if he is ready like that Arsenal boy
I think it’s true both that Pogba was given a chance, and that he himself chose to leave. It is also true that Ferguson syarted Phil Neville and Ji Sung Park ahead of the 18 year old because he felt he wasn’t ready. An 18 year old who leaves because of the minutes he received at a club the stature of United back then, with one of the best managers of all time with a rep for developping youth - I think it says more about him (and his advice), than about the club tbh.
It’s of course an argument that Ferguson was wrong in not giving him more playing time, and you could point to how well he played individually at Juve, for France, and in spells for United. Ferguson could then retort that he continued to win the league without Pogba, and that it would not serve the team to promote immaturity of the kind that maybe saw Pogba being part of an underperfoming side later at United, being called a virus by his coach and testing positive for drugs to effectively end his carreer prematurely.
I’m not going to challenge that claim.
Phil Neville left United in 2005
The big turning point was the Blackburn game which we lost at home, where Pogba remained on the bench when we had a crisis in midfield.
Wasn't it Rafael who started ahead of him in midfield against Blackburn anyway?
Want to say Rafael and Park, might have been O'Shea
Yeah I think Rafael and Park too. Rooney dropped for coming back after Christmas out of shape and we lost the game.
Sir Alex was right in his assessment of Pogba, but obviously the guy had the right to walk away.
He benefited a lot in the short term through the trust he had at Juve, but may have had a more successful career if he'd accepted the counsel
He benefited a lot in the short term through the trust he had at Juve, but may have had a more successful career if he'd accepted the counsel
Those close to him won't be happy when he gets snapped in half after he gets a full blooded challenge in men's football.
It was.
Phil Neville left United in 2005
The big turning point was the Blackburn game which we lost at home, where Pogba remained on the bench when we had a crisis in midfield.
Thought I was going mad reading about Phil Neville. SAF was right about Pogba, once he set himself up with Raiola he knew he was gone, there was no point in rewarding him with game time in a Utd shirt.
More what?
I actually spoke to a number of agents at the time, one of which was sitting next to me at the FA Premier Reserve League game up at Sunderland in December 2011. Pogba had a particularly poor game in a 3-6 defeat and we were discussing his inconsistency and how ready he was for the first team. Reading my notes that I took at the time, the agent described the advice that Pogba was getting as "very poor considering how well the club rates him" and that "he's been offered a really good deal". I obviously wasn't told what that meant.
The club offered Pogba a new deal. That is a fact. It was reported at the time in the press. In fact the Daily Telegraph on the 7th March 2012 ran with a headline "Ferguson fuming at Pogba departure..." and talked about the £1.4 fee Raiola was getting for the transfer to Juventus and the £830,000 signing on bonus. The newspaper report went on to say that "Ferguson has made a public plea for Pogba to stay and hoped a new contract would be signed".
None of the above sounds like the club was trying to get rid of Pogba.
Pogba was pissed off that he wasn't getting game time and asked for certain guarantees about the number of games he would be playing the following season. He wanted it in his contract. The agent told me that the club/Ferguson responded with a statement something like "we can't guarantee Wayne Rooney or any other first team player a certain number of appearances..."
Basically Pogba and his team decided to move on.
So three things here:
1. The club offered him a new contract.
2. Pogba declined and moved on which was his right
3. The original poster saying United 'let him go' is inaccurate
If you want more accuracy I have more first hand interviews and contemporary newspaper articles.
That was actually a fantastic reply and I don't doubt your credentials sir! But I do remember, as do many others, that when we had our main midfielders out Fergie played Gibson and maybe one of the twins or Park in midfield instead of giving Pogba a chance. That's what I meant. I know the club wanted him to stay, they offered him a good deal, etc. But Fergie in my humble opinion should have given him a proper chance.
I recently played in a game against a very highly rated 15 year old in a local academy. He was the youngest player on the pitch. I was one of the oldest (mid-30s). He was obivously way more skillfull than everyone else. But the disadvantage he had in pace, strength etc. was wild. Every ball over the top he got bullied, and that's against amateurs. Saw him playing against his own age group and he scored 4 goals.
You have to be a freak of nature to be ready for men's football at 16/17.
It’s a matter of opinion but I believe SAF messed this up. SAF was a great manager but even great managers make mistakes as they don’t have hindsight. Pogba displayed some great skillsets in his career for a midfielder despite the media onslaught.
Football had just moved on where new young players had different mentality and mindset.
Interesting contribution
Think that Blackburn game was a convenient excuse. He was going regardless. Even using that game as an example, doubting Sir Alex for doing the right thing when it comes to introducing youngsters... surprised so many lapped it up.
I'd say Fergie saw him walking around in training and dancing and whatever else and thought he just wasn't ready. Also being ready for first team in Italy isn't the same as being ready in England as we've all seen quite clearly now. He most likely wouldn't have been a regular starter for us the season he left either so he made the right choice for himself and it paid off. It's only happened to us once really which isn't too bad.
Exactly the point I'm making. The calls for JJ to be progressed at a similar speed to Dowman at Arsenal don't take into account the fact that Dowman is able to cope in men's football already because he's physically mature enough to handle the step up. But a lot of teenagers of 15/16 won't be and that has to be taken into account, however gifted they are. It's always been that way - Duncan Edwards broke through at 16 because he had the physical attributes already at that age; Paul Scholes was 19/20 because he didn't.
Its probably more that not only did he and Ravel have immature attitudes and emotional dysregulation they also didn't play well when afforded first team opportunities and in Pogba's case was also not playing well with u21s.
Ravel asked for a crazy contract
Pogba asked for guarantees we don't offer anyone
The rest is history
Sorry going off topic and talking about JJ in this thread but the Sun reporting
Good stuff this.
Good stuff this.
Must have been a Phil
Also in hindsight as good of a footballer as he was we probably shouldn't have signed him the second time either all things being equal.
Apologies for derailing the thread momentarily
Why? He’s one of the best players we’ve signed post sir Alex and helped us win trophies.
For a club who’s had Sancho, DVB, Antony, Ugarte, AWB, Fred as expensive flops and the likes of Telles, Malacia, Darrian etc as just blatant mediocrity on the roster in recent times…Pogba, Bruno, Mbuemo, Cunha, Lammens and a few more standout as exceptions. Bruno being the absolute.