It wasn't Spain who they bottled it against in 2012.
Joachim Löw finished as Germany coach after the Euros
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
Maybe Levy will make him pick cheese out and sniff it to promote the cheese room
197 games as an international manager with a top nation, that must be close to the record?
With hindsight should have gone after WC 2018 surely.
With hindsight should have gone after WC 2018 surely.
Yea that 2012 selection error against Italy was when I first started doubting him as a manager, though he did well to win in WC 2014.
It was the 2008 Euro and 2010 WC that could've been won had it not been for Spain. Germany v Holland in the 2010 Final would've been a spectacular match.
Euro 2016 hurts the most to be honest. Spain had declined while France weren't quite at their peak yet, it was the perfect situation for Germany to win another major trophy as they had one of, if not the, best squads of the tournament. Shouldn't have lost to France in that semi final (would've beaten Portugal in the final I feel), some 50-50 decisions going France's way but overall the performance wasn't great in that tournament (needing penalties to beat a depleted Italy).
Had he won Euro 2016, it would've been justice to the potential of that group of players had.
Löw hurts...not anymore
Did great with young and not so quality players playing attacking football from 2006-2010. But once expectations were bigger and the overall football world had more adapted to aggressive pressing cracks started to appear. Should have never lost that 2012 semi final against Italy, many think that 2014 was won despite and not because of him (simply the best squad in that tournament) and from 2016 onwards the football was just horrible static turd.
Wenger comparisons seem quite good although Wenger had to work with a squad that got worse and worse over the years, while for Löw it was kinda the other way around.
Wenger comparisons seem quite good although Wenger had to work with a squad that got worse and worse over the years, while for Löw it was kinda the other way around.
With hindsight, the time to leave was after the 2016 Euros, or even straight after the 2014 world cup win.
Euros 2016 was where he started that obsession with a back 3/5, sacrificing attacking play for defensive stability which never was attained but still reliably stunted our attack. All the time ignoring that the players we have are used to and suited to attacking play with defending from the top through aggressive pressing (see Flick's Bayern).
He's been setting us up for failure for years now, managing to convince people our players were past it or shit or both, while just continuing to ignore their strengths.
As Germany coach, he dug his nose for the last time.
No expert on the german national team but it seems crazy to me that germany could have started with an attack of Sane, Gnarby, Harvertz and Werner. Fast, fluid and dynamic. Have Kroos and Goretzka as the double pivot (creator and destroyer) and thats looking formidable already.
And still won Euro 96, QF for WC98 and got to the world cup final of 2002 during that period...
That QF was similar to this England game. Poor showing and should not have lost like that. 2002 is also the worst German team to ever reach a final. Didn't face a single top team to get there and lost thoroughly.
Helmut Cheese! Sounds like a good name for a Spurs manager
I know, but that shows how well Germany have done throughout their history that its deemed as a poor period when you win a trophy, reach a final and a QF and it lasts for 8 years...
It also shows that Löw's record isn't as stunning as it looks. Germany has pretty much always gotten good results, especially at world cups. Löw had the luxury of having a much better squad than Völler, Klinsmann und Vogts, though.
I wouldn't reduce it to the decision to use a back three, that in itself is neither attacking or defensive. Playing a 4231 with Kroos as a holding midfielder ended in total disaster in 2018, too. Sacrificing attacking prowess for defensive stability or vice versa is one thing, but he achieved neither after 2014. E.g. this tournament: playing a back three to shore up the defense, but then he completely exposed them with that Kroos/Gündogan midfield, that could neither protect the defense, nor support the attack sufficiently. England play pathetic football, but Southgate at least has a coherent idea and keeps getting rewarded for it with clean sheets and the chance to sghithouse their way to the next round.
I think the retirement/loss of the like's of Klose really hit Germany's team harder than some realise. Löw never really managed to replace Kloses goals and big game performances in the international tournaments. It's no coincidence that since Klose left the fold Germany have nosedived in tournaments.
Löw will be well regarded for that World Cup win.
Löw will be well regarded for that World Cup win.
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You know who else left after 2014? Flick.
Klose was brilliant, but considering the talent Germany has all over the pitch you'd expect that we wouldn't need an all time great CF to at least create some chances. But we don't do that anymore.
I am not sure that Klose was really brilliant. He was good for a very long time, that's what made it possible for him to break records, and rightfully makes him one of the all time greats for Germany, but I would say he was rarely brilliant.
His WC record is obviously...what it is.
And he had extreme qualities (aerial ability) which do stand out.
But he doesn't rank very highly in the list of great German strikers going back to, say, Uwe Seeler or thereabouts.
I mean, he obviously isn't anywhere near the best German striker ever. As in - he's miles off, really. His WC record kinda looks like an aberration all things said and done.
I am talking about central midfield. England’s two starting central midfielders are Rice and Phillips. Germany starts with Goretzka and Kroos and with Gundogan on the bench. There is no comparison.
Defence isn’t really better either. Hummels and Rudiger are not inferior to Stones and Maguire. Kimmich and Gosens are not inferior to Walker and Shaw. Neuer is better than Pickford.
I can give you attack but nothing else.
I think if he goes before the last world Cup it looks fantastic
The last two tournaments make it look... Good but it brings the record down
He did well obviously taking over from Klinsmann and taking them the next step
Ok, i will…
The German starting eleven had more talent on the pitch than the England starting. Goalkeeper is better, defence is comparable, Midfield is far better (this is the one area where we could actually talk about them being levels above….Germany that is) and German starting attack is better too. Two of them just won the CL and finished the season very strongly.
England didn’t start Grealish, Rashford, Mount, Foden and Sancho
But Germany didn’t start Gnabry, Musiala, Sane, Gundogan, Neuhaus
Englands bench is better, but “two levels above” is absolutely laughable. Germany had better players on the pitch and Southgate left out players because he knew that and wanted to negate them.
The fact that it’s still a surprise result and a momentous victory with Germany in disarray tells you all you need to know.
Debateable would have been a far more acceptable word. Delusional makes you look daft. That is what I took exception too.
That was easy
Its comparable but I think England clearly have the edge.Ok, i will…
The German starting eleven had more talent on the pitch than the England starting. Goalkeeper is better, defence is comparable, Midfield is far better (this is the one area where we could actually talk about them being levels above….Germany that is) and German starting attack is better too. Two of them just won the CL and finished the season very strongly.
England didn’t start Grealish, Rashford, Mount, Foden and Sancho
But Germany didn’t start Gnabry, Musiala, Sane, Gundogan, Neuhaus
Englands bench is better, but “two levels above” is absolutely laughable. Germany had better players on the pitch and Southgate left out players because he knew that and wanted to negate them.
The fact that it’s still a surprise result and a momentous victory with Germany in disarray tells you all you need to know.
Debateable would have been a far more acceptable word. Delusional makes you look daft. That is what I took exception too.
That was easy
The defences are of a similar level, Germany have the better midfield two, but it's the full backs and the attack where England really have the edge, and that too in numbers. That's why the England squad is better, especially when playing a back 5 where the midfield two don't need to be as technical. And I'm not overrating England teams, I think a lot of the teams they've put out (even in 2018) were not that good, the team that played in the 2018 semi final had Young, Lingard and Dele Alli starting in midfield. Since they they've had a lot of players establish themselves - Sancho, Mount, Foden, Grealish, Reece James, even the likes of Shaw, Pickford and Maguire have improved since then.
Full back comparison - England have Shaw, Chillwell, Reece James, Trippier, Walker, TAA. Germany have Gosens and no real right back.
Attack - the strongest front 3 of each would be Grealish, Kane, Sterling. Versus Gnabry, Werner, Havertz. Germany's 3 are good, but they're still inconsistent and crucially lack a goal scorer compared to England having Kane. Havertz is technically excellent but he's almost a second striker, he doesn't dribble the way Grealish or Sterling do so it's hard for him to break down packed defences. And the depth options - Germany have Sane, Muller and Musiala, whereas England have Sancho, Foden, Rashford, Calvert Lewin. Comparable especially if Sane is on form but I'd say England have more options.
Even in defence id give it to England because
Maguire, Stones and Walker as a 3 are more physically able and far more comfortable on the ball than Germany's. You saw that with how many times England's CBs could bring the ball out under the press Vs Germany's.
I don't think it's a reach to say this either - teams are cyclical and Germany are still evolving from the great 2014 team, where some of the players are still being phased out and new ones are trying to embed in. They've lost Boateng, Bastian, Lahm, Khedira, Ozil etc and while some of the replacements like Kimmich and Goretska have established themselves, as a whole there's not been enough new players playing at the former players level. I think in 2-3 years time when the younger German players hit their peaks and new faces bed in to plug some of the gaps in the German squad, Germany will be a force again. But for England, there's almost no one in the squad left from 2014 and there's been a serious wave of young talent come through in numbers and the core of Kane etc are close to their peaks.
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I just cannot unsee him digging in his butthole and smelling it in the dugout. It completely overshadows everyting he did over a 15 year long career
Agree with this. The only areas where Germany are definitely stronger are midfield and in goal. They really, really miss a natural goalscorer. If Muller's chance fell to Kane or Lewa they put it away and it's an entirely different game.
'Two of them just won the CL.' Did it escape you that there's more of this year's CL finalists in the England squad than there is in Germany's? 7 to 2. Terrific point!Ok, i will…
The German starting eleven had more talent on the pitch than the England starting. Goalkeeper is better, defence is comparable, Midfield is far better (this is the one area where we could actually talk about them being levels above….Germany that is) and German starting attack is better too. Two of them just won the CL and finished the season very strongly.
England didn’t start Grealish, Rashford, Mount, Foden and Sancho
But Germany didn’t start Gnabry, Musiala, Sane, Gundogan, Neuhaus
Englands bench is better, but “two levels above” is absolutely laughable. Germany had better players on the pitch and Southgate left out players because he knew that and wanted to negate them.
The fact that it’s still a surprise result and a momentous victory with Germany in disarray tells you all you need to know.
Debateable would have been a far more acceptable word. Delusional makes you look daft. That is what I took exception too.
That was easy
I literally highlighted the word 'Squad' after your first rant, and yet you still seem to think I said 'Starting XI.'
England has better fullbacks in abundance and the best CB, but Germany's defense is on par... and Germany has a better attack? Are you high? When you consider the quality in depth of the two teams, it's not even close.
It's a surprise results the favourites won the game is it?
You're doing such an incredible job of shitting on your own argument I don't know why I'm bothering. You're right, you've made it very easy for me. Thanks for your support!
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CL stuff was just to make a point that they were being underrated. Havertz, in particular, is a great player. They were literally key to that win, creating the winning goal between them in the final.'Two of them just won the CL.' Did it escape you that there's more of this year's CL finalists in the England squad than there is in Germany's? 7 to 2. Terrific point!
I literally highlighted the word 'Squad' after your first rant, and yet you still seem to think I said 'Starting XI.'
England has better fullbacks in abundance and the best CB, but Germany's defense is on par... and Germany has a better attack? Are you high? When you consider the quality in depth of the two teams, it's not even close.
It's a surprise results the favourites won the game is it?
You're doing such an incredible job of shitting on your own argument I don't know why I'm bothering. You're right, you've made it very easy for me. Thanks for your support!
Emm, first eleven still makes up the squad mate and the fact that it’s much better means a whole lot if you are comparing the squads! Fullbacks are slightly better, but CBS are certainly not, keeper isn’t, midfield is wayyyy off, and their starting attackers were way better than englands three!
What a totally bizarre angle. A better squad if you don’t focus on the fact their first team is better. Amazing
You mean the same way you are underrating the 7 English players that played in the final? Keep digging.CL stuff was just to make a point that they were being underrated. Havertz, in particular, is a great player. They were literally key to that win, creating the winning goal between them in the final.
Emm, first eleven still makes up the squad mate and the fact that it’s much better means a whole lot if you are comparing the squads! Fullbacks are slightly better, but CBS are certainly not, keeper isn’t, midfield is wayyyy off, and their starting attackers were way better than englands three!
What a totally bizarre angle. A better squad if you don’t focus on the fact their first team is better. Amazing
Fullbacks are not 'slightly' better, they're miles better. Maguire is far and away the best CB. Midfield is better for Germany. Wide players are close with England edging it and blowing Germany out of the water in terms of depth. As for the CF it's laughable you'd even try to put the case forward.
I see the inconvenience of the favourites winning was somehow a shock has been ignored entirely. Good choice.
Errrrm the starting XI and the squad are two different things. A lot of England's attacking talent wasn't starting, which made up a significant part of the point I was making, and yet you you wanted to prattle on exclusively about the starting XI. And first team? The U23s aren't at the tournament, chap. That would be the squad... You're all over the place.
If Germany squad is that good why have they been this shit for the last several years ?
And if it's down to Low only how did he manage to win the World Cup in 2014 ?
Because if you say that he won it just because he had a top squad, this top squad should have done better than what they did in 2018 and Euro 2020. Otherwise you're admitting that their squad has declined in quality since WC 2014.
And if it's down to Low only how did he manage to win the World Cup in 2014 ?
Because if you say that he won it just because he had a top squad, this top squad should have done better than what they did in 2018 and Euro 2020. Otherwise you're admitting that their squad has declined in quality since WC 2014.
The first team makes up basically half the squad. In my opinion, Hummels/Rudiger is at least on par with Maguire/Stones. I will give you the full backs.You mean the same way you are underrating the 7 English players that played in the final? Keep digging.
Fullbacks are not 'slightly' better, they're miles better. Maguire is far and away the best CB. Midfield is better for Germany. Wide players are close with England edging it and blowing Germany out of the water in terms of depth. As for the CF it's laughable you'd even try to put the case forward.
I see the inconvenience of the favourites winning was somehow a shock has been ignored entirely. Good choice.
Errrrm the starting XI and the squad are two different things. A lot of England's attacking talent wasn't starting, which made up a significant part of the point I was making, and yet you you wanted to prattle on exclusively about the starting XI. And first team? The U23s aren't at the tournament, chap. That would be the squad... You're all over the place.
Again, goalkeeper is way better, by a distance. Midfield is way better, by a distance. Attacks can be debated all day, but those German players are in the same company as any three that England play. The same can’t be said for any midfield that England put out. They are leagues lower.
England have a few more options on the bench, but under a better coach and new ideas, Germany still have Gnabry, Sane, and Musiala to come in as attacking options.
You said “one or two levels below” and that is laughable. It is far more valid an opinion to say that Germany have a better team than to say the England squad is “levels above”
You can twist it all you want, but your opinion was far more bizarre and severely underrates the German players.
A squad that has Coady and Mings as the next options at CB, Pickford as their best keeper and Rice/Philips as the best options in midfield will never be “levels” above anyone.
No point responding to your odds comment about England being the favorites as that accounts for management and recent form and everything else and leads me back to my initial point. Low stayed too long and started making bad decision after bad decision which has got them to where they are now. Odds are far more complex than your basic argument.
I am sure you will want the last word and will reply again, but I will leave it up to others to decide which opinion is more valid.
Germanys and Bayerns fortunes are intertwined. Few national teams have the luxury of having 4-5 starters arriving from the same club already gelling seamlessly.
In 2014 Löw could count on
Neuer, Boateng, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Kroos, Müller and Götze from Bayern. A contingent, with the exception of Götze, who won the Champions League in 2013 destroying THAT Barcelona with 7-0. Also all undisputed starters for both teams with the exception of Götze. The team also featured prime Khedira and Özil of Real Madrid (winners of CL 2014) as well as Hummels and Klose.
Half the team also won the U21 Euros in 2009 and were around 25 years old. Apart from Klose 36, Lahm 30 and reserve goalkeeper Weidenfeller 33 the rest of the squad were younger than 30.
In 2021 Löw could count on
Neuer, Süle, Kimmich, Goretzka, Musiala, Sané, Müller and Gnabry from Bayern. A contingent who won the Champions League in 2013 destroying Barcelona with 8-2. BUT here is a key difference. Süle has been rotated by Bayern and benched by Löw, Kimmich played on the right instead of cdm, Goretzka benched for Gündogan, Musiala is 17 and mostly just here to observe and learn, Sané has been benched by both teams, Gnabry was played out of position due to Werner playing like cr*p. Neuer and Müller being good role players but also shadows of their former, younger selves.
Also telling is that Germany lost in the finals of the U21 Euros in 2019 by 2-1 against Spain. Out of that team only Klostermann and Neuhaus made this years squad - and both were stuck on the bench. Germany also won the U21 Euros in 2017 by 1-0 against Spain. Out of that team only Gnabry made this years squad. Either the new crops, the class of 2017 and 2019 were significantly weaker than earlier crops, or Flick needs to make a giant overhaul inserting fresh blood who already proved themselves on the U21-scene.
In 2014 Löw could count on
Neuer, Boateng, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Kroos, Müller and Götze from Bayern. A contingent, with the exception of Götze, who won the Champions League in 2013 destroying THAT Barcelona with 7-0. Also all undisputed starters for both teams with the exception of Götze. The team also featured prime Khedira and Özil of Real Madrid (winners of CL 2014) as well as Hummels and Klose.
Half the team also won the U21 Euros in 2009 and were around 25 years old. Apart from Klose 36, Lahm 30 and reserve goalkeeper Weidenfeller 33 the rest of the squad were younger than 30.
In 2021 Löw could count on
Neuer, Süle, Kimmich, Goretzka, Musiala, Sané, Müller and Gnabry from Bayern. A contingent who won the Champions League in 2013 destroying Barcelona with 8-2. BUT here is a key difference. Süle has been rotated by Bayern and benched by Löw, Kimmich played on the right instead of cdm, Goretzka benched for Gündogan, Musiala is 17 and mostly just here to observe and learn, Sané has been benched by both teams, Gnabry was played out of position due to Werner playing like cr*p. Neuer and Müller being good role players but also shadows of their former, younger selves.
Also telling is that Germany lost in the finals of the U21 Euros in 2019 by 2-1 against Spain. Out of that team only Klostermann and Neuhaus made this years squad - and both were stuck on the bench. Germany also won the U21 Euros in 2017 by 1-0 against Spain. Out of that team only Gnabry made this years squad. Either the new crops, the class of 2017 and 2019 were significantly weaker than earlier crops, or Flick needs to make a giant overhaul inserting fresh blood who already proved themselves on the U21-scene.
So we'll just pretend the other half doesn't exist then to excuse you for failing to understand that the squad and the starting XI are not the same thing. I went so far as to bold it for you and it still didn't hit home. To make matters worse, you then confuse the starting XI with the first team.
The wide players are marginally better. The CF is 'way better, by a distance.' When you include depth it isn't even a contest. Oh you'll give me the fullbacks will you? How gracious of you. Maguire is absolutely the best CB. No debate. Ultimately, Germany have the better keeper (who isn't nearly what he was) and a better midfield. But when you consider the way England set up, and the plethora of options they have in the final third, not to mention the most productive fullbacks in Europe (you'll give me that one), having two ball winners is fine.
No need to twist it. You said it was a surprise/shock England (the favourites) beat Germany. It had feck all to do with form and who the manager was. But as with all the other bizarre statements you've made in this short exchange, you've frantically tried to backpedal and infer it was about something completely different. Take your strange boast that Germany had 2 players in the CL final, for example. When it was pointed out to you England had 7, the amount of players in the CL wasn't particularly important anymore. You found it prudent to mention it was a shock England won, and when it's pointed out to you England were the favourites (not just for the game but for the tournament at this point), it wasn't even worth responding to any more. Can you see the pattern here?
I am sure you will want the last word and will reply again, but I will leave it up to others to decide which opinion is more valid. Those that already have done have disagreed with you.
I hope he gets hired by a top club and they call him The Boogerman in his introductory video.
Or at least the headlines about his hiring rumours should be on the lines of 'Oh Boogerman, where you gonna run to'.
And he'll deserve it because he's picked his nose on TV more often than he's picked playing squads.
Or at least the headlines about his hiring rumours should be on the lines of 'Oh Boogerman, where you gonna run to'.
And he'll deserve it because he's picked his nose on TV more often than he's picked playing squads.