Joao Gomes

[goldenboy]

a DM/6 who can break a press and get the teams up field with a transition

For PL level he's average at best overall at that. And it's better to have a DM capable of doing that via passing instead of dribbling.

The lad has been linked with us and Liverpool. So the scouts and analysts see something in him

Hearsay and press gossip means absolutely diddly squat. Them actually bidding a decent sum for him would mean something.

 

[goldenboy]

Is not Wolves xg and xg against more relevant in this case? I would assume that the difference in those figures are alot less.

Yes, you are correct on that. Good point.

Wolves over-performed their xG last season. Their xG last season would have been 44.4, ie 1.17 per match.
Wolves' current xG for this season is 28. That is 0.90 per match.

So Wolves' xG last season was still 30% higher per match last season.

Yet Joao Gomes' 'Offensive Action VAEP' was still lower last season, at 0.13 vs 0.14 this. In the better performing Wolves team last season, had he been proportionately involved in their xG then one might have perhaps expected his score to have reached more like 0.18. His score being lower suggests he had little effect on the teams' xG being better, and also that the team performing better did not lift his own offensive performance.

As for the rest, I agree. The lack of change is remarkable. Really interesting to see those numbers for Declan Rice. Really look like my initial assumption where wrong. Have you seen player develop when you have looked at those numbers? Looks like the case for Rice, but what about Anderson (who went under the radar a year ago)?

It's a bit difficult to look at the performance of many players over time with the tools I have, but from scanning through the development of a number of the top performing midfielders it seems development is more a function of age than club, as players enter their peak years. This is fairly speculative, but it looks to me as if between the ages of 22 - 24or25 there can be some variability or inconsistency in performance; but the ages of 24or25 - 27 often see more visible steady progress. Rate of progress under 22 is more difficult to track with what I have, as

For Anderson though he has clearly increased from last season, albeit last season was still quite good.
2024/25 - Offensive: 0.21 ; Prevented: 0.28
2025/26 - Offensive: 0.26 ; Prevented: 0.31

It's interesting to note that Rice's results for these at West Ham at 22/23 were pretty similar overall to Anderson's, with marginally higher xThreat Prevented and marginally lower Offensive Action VAEP. Rice's biggest single jump up in both those measures has only come this season, at the age of 26/27.

Even though I can't find any examples yet of players having big jumps just from moving to a better club in the same league, one thing I do wonder, which we can't really test for, is the extent to which a player like Rice would still have managed such a big jump in performance in his peak years had he stayed at a lesser club?

But Locatelli at Juventus seems a good, and uncommon, case study example for player progression by age for the data I have that isn't warped by the influence of other factors e.g. him changing club or league.
Conveniently, to get his age for that season just add 2 to the years (in 2021/22 he was 23/24 years old, this season he is 27/28 years old.
He was already really good at 23/24, similar to where Ederson and L. Camara are on my scatter chart, but as with Rice he had some variability then really seemed to kick on at 26/27.

It is also funny that Curtis Jones always looks so good on stats. None of his coaches seem to rate him. Not Klopp. Not Slot. Not Southgate. Not Tuchel.

Again, he did still start 19 games for Liverpool last season as they won the league, which is a reasonable amount. Him not starting week in week out has probably held him back from more England caps. There is definitely some untapped potential there though - he is only just entering his peak, having turned 25 in January. A number of Liverpool fans would rather he start ahead of Mac Allister. If he has indeed fallen out with Slot and doesn't get more of the chance in future that he seemingly deserves, then I could see him doing a McTominay and moving to Serie A, and instantly becoming one of the clear best players in the league.

 

[goldenboy]

Very few interesting players in your graph, but these two looks good. Will probably be two of the most attractive midfielders this summer too.

I also think Alex Scott looks interesting. All in all.

I've watched Manzambi a few times recently, including at the weekend vs Bayern. He is a very unusual and rather confusing player. He is a bit like Mateus Mane at Wolves (though with better passing), in that on paper he is often supposed to be a central midfielder, yet he seems to spend half his time rather on the left-wing. Albeit he's also not adverse to dropping between the CBs to pick up the ball and progress the play. He has a lot of energy, and really is all over the shop.

He also has lots of quality on the ball in both his dribbling and long-range passing, but he regularly veers from the sublime to the ridiculous and currently gives the ball away a lot. His winger-esque traits mean he can try and dribble round the entire opposition team from the edge of his own box, sometimes losing it in the process, and he can try a lot of risky passes and flicks in bad areas which also lead to losses in possession. These kind of mistakes will get punished more in the PL and may get looked on with less generous eyes at a club with the expectations of United.

He's the kind of player who perhaps more so than many would benefit from a move to a mid-tier PL club with lower expecations, like a Brighton or Bournemouth, where he can try and iron out his current youthful penchant for errors with lower expectations than at United. Albeit of course, if and when he manages that, a couple years down the line he could demand twice the fee. Such is the risk/reward.

Alex Scott has some good attributes. Defensively he does indeed seem very good. Though I'm not convinced he's right for United. His passing really is not that great, and he seems to benefit from having space to dribble in to eg on transition. I'm not sure how well suited he'd be to helping to break down the kind of low blocks he'd more likely be up against at United. I don't hate the idea though I guess. Maybe his passing could still develop a bit.

 

[andersj]

It's interesting to note that Rice's results for these at West Ham at 22/23 were pretty similar overall to Anderson's, with marginally higher xThreat Prevented and marginally lower Offensive Action VAEP. Rice's biggest single jump up in both those measures has only come this season, at the age of 26/27.

Even though I can't find any examples yet of players having big jumps just from moving to a better club in the same league, one thing I do wonder, which we can't really test for, is the extent to which a player like Rice would still have managed such a big jump in performance in his peak years had he stayed at a lesser club.

But Locatelli at Juventus seems a good, and uncommon, case study example for player progression by age for the data I have that isn't warped by the influence of other factors e.g. him changing club or league.
Conveniently, to get his age for that season just add 2 to the years (in 2021/22 he was 23/24 years old, this season he is 27/28 years old.
He was already really good at 23/24, similar to where Ederson and L. Camara are on my scatter chart, but as with Rice he had some variability then really seemed to kick on at 26/27.

I was really keen on both Locatelli and Rice when they were young and made threads on both of them in here. Since I followed both for years, that was why I was really keen on info on them.

I remember Jurgen Klopp emphasising that players peak between 27 and 33 years old.

"It is always a discussion we have," Klopp said. "The owners really want 200 games at 20 years old. That is pretty difficult. I didn’t need any kind of convincing. I know that the best time for a football player is from 27 to 33 in a normal career. It depends on injuries, of course. That is why I did not need to change anything and he was on my list from the beginning."

Not really controversial, but I think both Klopp and Ferguson really liked signing players about to enter that age.

I was not that convinced by Scott either initially. Never looked that impressive from a data point of view. But I think he has a few things going for himself. First and foremost, very tidy technically. Physically he is strong and agile. But he is also a player who like Rice has a really good eye for danger. He always seem to pop up at the right time in his own box. I think that is why he looks good defensively in your chart. In terms of style, he share a few of the same traits as Casemiro.

Of course, we would rather have a Rodri, Rice or a young Locatelli. But those are not easy to find and if they were the competition would be fierce. A player like Scott could develop significantly the next couple of years. The same with Garner or Wharton. For now, we would have to play to their strenghts and surround them with players who can make up for their shortcomings. I think we need to solve the passing with a CB like van Hecke next to Martinez.

I think players like van Hecke, Schlotterbeck (one of them anyway) and Raum, with one year left of their contracts, should be pursued to help compensate for what we are doomed to lack in midfield.

A tidy, but unspectacular midfield, who can and will run all day, win duels, keep the ball and are young enough (with ability and potential) to develop quite a bit, at a fair price, should be the aim.

 

[Tallis]

Let’s say we have identified and signed 2 CMs that cost 150m. Pick your favourite ones.

We have assessed we need 4 CMs with KM being the 4th.

We only have 30m left in the budget for the 3rd CM.

Who else can we sign who is Prem proven, in the same ball park of stats as the other top prospects, and in an age bracket that we can sell to recoup our money if it doesn’t work out.

 

[dinostar77]

Let’s say we have identified and signed 2 CMs that cost 150m. Pick your favourite ones.

We have assessed we need 4 CMs with KM being the 4th.

We only have 30m left in the budget for the 3rd CM.

Who else can we sign who is Prem proven, in the same ball park of stats as the other top prospects, and in an age bracket that we can sell to recoup our money if it doesn’t work out.

Between Anderson, Baleba, Tonali, M Fernandes, João Gomes, Andre, Wharton, Sangare there is plenty of choice of PL proven players.

Where Anderson lands will dictate our summer.

 

[goldenboy]

I know that the best time for a football player is from 27 to 33 in a normal career.

Salah has fallen off an absolute cliff at 33. I'd say closer to 26.5 to 32.5...

I was not that convinced by Scott either initially. Never looked that impressive from a data point of view. But I think he has a few things going for himself. First and foremost, very tidy technically. Physically he is strong and agile. But he is also a player who like Rice has a really good eye for danger. He always seem to pop up at the right time in his own box. I think that is why he looks good defensively in your chart. In terms of style, he share a few of the same traits as Casemiro.

"Very tidy technically" except for his passing...

Even with two decent passing CBs behind them, if you have to play Scott with Mainoo, then it's two CMs who seriously struggle to hit forward or long passes. It'd be a real concern. The CBs won't be able to bail them out; the weakness will be exploited by opponents. As well as the below, Scott is 9th percentile for Passing xThreat...

I haven't watched him enough to know how likely this is to be solvable in future.

Of course, we would rather have a Rodri, Rice or a young Locatelli. But those are not easy to find and if they were the competition would be fierce.

Anderson isn't too far off a young Rice, and yeah the competition from City will be fierce. Chema looks the closest thing to a young Rodri, but it remains to be seen if Real can be convinced to part with him permanently. The 21-25 bracket for Locatelli/Rodri type and potential players who aren't already at Bayern or Barca (Pavlovic and Pedri), is pretty bare.

 

[goldenboy]

Let’s say we have identified and signed 2 CMs that cost 150m. Pick your favourite ones.

We have assessed we need 4 CMs with KM being the 4th.

We only have 30m left in the budget for the 3rd CM.

Who else can we sign who is Prem proven, in the same ball park of stats as the other top prospects, and in an age bracket that we can sell to recoup our money if it doesn’t work out.

If you've already spent 150mil on 2 CMs one would hope they'd be fairly reliable at PL level. In which case, why does a 3rd midfielder also need to PL proven? Surely there should be room for the 3rd midfielder to be a bit more speculative.

e.g. 30mil can pretty much get you Wouter Burger, Kees Smit, or Nathan De Cat.
Heck, for 15mil you can get Vanja Dragojevic or Matias Siltanen.

 

[bb8]

Between Anderson, Baleba, Tonali, M Fernandes, João Gomes, Andre, Wharton, Sangare there is plenty of choice of PL proven players.

Where Anderson lands will dictate our summer.

What do you mean by "PL proven"? Of the list you made, I'd say only Anderson and Tonali are currently above average starters.

Wharton, Baleba, and Fernandes all have potential to be well above average, but they haven't "proven" anything. All have a fair amount to work to do to be good players, especially Baleba/Fernandes. They could potentially never get there.

I don't think either of the Wolves CMs are very good personally. Proven to be below average starters, if that's what you mean. They shouldn't be getting a bunch of minutes on a team in Europe, let alone UCL.

Sangare is okay. He may finally be an average starter in the league, but he's also already 28, and doesn't make a ton of sense to buy at this point. If you could get him for cheap, sure, go for it. But £40-50M for a guy whose probably just a depth piece for a top team for a few years would be abjectly silly.

There's lots of interesting guys in other leagues. We definitely shouldn't rule them out simply because they're not currently in the PL. What we should be doing is assigning a market value to different targets, and then poking around to see who we can get a good deal for. The smart teams are doing that rather than locking onto targets (outside of the elite Anderson types) or ruling out nearly the entire world just bc they're not playing in the Prem at the moment.

 

[Fortitude]

Why is there so little mention of La Liga midfielders? The pinnacle of technical, quality midfielder play; why no scouting of top, young talents from there?

 

[bb8]

Salah has fallen off an absolute cliff at 33. I'd say closer to 26.5 to 32.5...

Peak age tends to be about 25-30 for most positions, maybe 31. By 32 the average player has fallen off about 25% from their peak abilities. Wingers even earlier; they start declining around 28 or 29.

Minutes played peaks at age 26.

https://macro-football.com/other/aging/

 

[andersj]

I haven't watched him enough to know how likely this is to be solvable in future.

Always hard to say, but I think a huge part of it is down to instruction. His partner in midfield, Tyler Adams, basically never pass forward either. I dont think that was the case when he was in Leeds.

I think Anderson looks (eye test, not stats) like a totally changed player in terms of his passing this season.

 

[goldenboy]

Peak age tends to be about 25-30 for most positions, maybe 31. By 32 the average player has fallen off about 25% from their peak abilities. Wingers even earlier; they start declining around 28 or 29.

Minutes played peaks at age 26.

https://macro-football.com/other/aging/

I've seen similar studies to that, but never as comprehensive before. Thanks.

 

[dinostar77]

What do you mean by "PL proven"? Of the list you made, I'd say only Anderson and Tonali are currently above average starters.

Wharton, Baleba, and Fernandes all have potential to be well above average, but they haven't "proven" anything. All have a fair amount to work to do to be good players, especially Baleba/Fernandes. They could potentially never get there.

I don't think either of the Wolves CMs are very good personally. Proven to be below average starters, if that's what you mean. They shouldn't be getting a bunch of minutes on a team in Europe, let alone UCL.

Sangare is okay. He may finally be an average starter in the league, but he's also already 28, and doesn't make a ton of sense to buy at this point. If you could get him for cheap, sure, go for it. But £40-50M for a guy whose probably just a depth piece for a top team for a few years would be abjectly silly.

There's lots of interesting guys in other leagues. We definitely shouldn't rule them out simply because they're not currently in the PL. What we should be doing is assigning a market value to different targets, and then poking around to see who we can get a good deal for. The smart teams are doing that rather than locking onto targets (outside of the elite Anderson types) or ruling out nearly the entire world just bc they're not playing in the Prem at the moment.

As interesting as it is to discuss players in other leagues, I'm going with what the reputable journalists have reported. That's INEOS are planning to stick to their strategy of PL proven. It may not be the case for every player they sign this summer, however it does seem from the bits we are hearing publicly, that they have sounded out the agents of Anderson, Tonali, Baleba, João Gomes etc.

Where there is smoke there is fire etc etc. Now Utd could suprise us all with a unexpected signing, but currently what Mitten and other more reputable journalists are saying is that we will follow the same strategy as last summer with Mbeumo and Cunha.

 

[goldenboy]

That's INEOS are planning to stick to their strategy of PL proven

the same strategy as last summer with Mbeumo and Cunha

You are conveniently ignoring that Ineos also signed Sesko, Dorgu and Lammens last year. Only 2 of United's 5 signings last year were from the PL.

You are also continuing to ignore that players like Baleba and Joao Gomes have not really "proven" themselves yet as even average PL-level CMs. That should discount them, by your "logic".

Cunha and Mbeumo had actually "proven" themselves as top-level PL players in their position in their position.

 

[dinostar77]

You are conveniently ignoring that Ineos also signed Sesko, Dorgu and Lammens last year. Only 2 of United's 5 signings last year were from the PL.

You are also continuing to ignore that players like Baleba and Joao Gomes have not really "proven" themselves yet as even average PL-level CMs. That should discount them, by your "logic".

Cunha and Mbeumo had actually "proven" themselves as top-level PL players in their position in their position.

Read my post properly "Utd could suprise us all with a unexpected signing".

João Gomes is highly rated as shown in the premier league channel with 9.5 million subscribers, video a page or two back. Linked with us and Liverpool.

Did you even watch the video? I will post it here again for you.





We went as far as agreeing personal terms with Baleba last summer. After all the work we did in getting that far, we are just gonna give up on him after a indifferent season?

But you go ahead and suggest players we should sign, that we have never been linked to by any journalists, just because you say the stats said x,y,z. Obviously you know better than professional journalists, scouts and data analytics guys who get paid to do this for a living.

Your not a professional, neither am I. We are both random Utd fans on a fan forum. At least my head is in the real world when it comes to potential transfers and not the transfers I'm making in football manager or FIFA.

So I will go with what the established journalists say.

 

[DWelbz19]

Why is there so little mention of La Liga midfielders? The pinnacle of technical, quality midfielder play; why no scouting of top, young talents from there?

There’s got to be some, right? Some Spanish kid playing for Villarreal or Las Palmas who can turn on a penny and plays 60+ passes a game.

Pablo Barrios at Atletico looks good whenever I see him.

We’ve had some loose links with some guy called Agoume. Stats suggest he’s way more of a defensive midfielder though.

 

[goldenboy]

Pablo Barrios at Atletico looks good whenever I see him.

We’ve had some loose links with some guy called Agoume. Stats suggest he’s way more of a defensive midfielder though.

Pablo Barrios seems a perma-crock though sadly. Currently rivalling Camavinga in that department.

Agoume is pretty 'meh'. And quite slow.

 

[Trigestis]

There’s got to be some, right? Some Spanish kid playing for Villarreal or Las Palmas who can turn on a penny and plays 60+ passes a game.

Pablo Barrios at Atletico looks good whenever I see him.

We’ve had some loose links with some guy called Agoume. Stats suggest he’s way more of a defensive midfielder though.

Dani Ceballos. Many will be put off by him because of his time for Arsenal, but he's a really good player with excellent passing ability and technique. A bit injury prone, but I'd take my chances on him, he's not a starter for Real either so probably won't be very expensive.

 

[goldenboy]

João Gomes is highly rated as shown in the premier league channel with 9.5 million subscribers

I have already spoken to you about the video - yes I have watched it and it means very little. You could make a similar highlights video showing Ugarte, Zirkzee and Hojlund to be good players at United if you wanted to.

Obviously the official PL channel will have lots of subscribers - and of course it's goal is to hype up the players in its league and provide easy to watch entertainment. It doesn't mean it's properly critical, in-depth analysis though. Other videos on the channel include the likes of "Premier League Bloopers & Funniest Moments From 2025" , "Alexis Mac Allister Makes A Father And Son's Dream Come True" , and "Premier League Players Take on the Internet's Toughest Questions! ".

Real hard-hitting journalism!!!

The official PL website doesn't even give you the option to view stats on a per 90 basis... that's how shallow it all is.

Linked with us and Liverpool.

Probably by his agent.

We went as far as agreeing personal terms with Baleba last summer. After all the work we did in getting that far, we are just gonna give up on him after a indifferent season?

Unless he has intentionally been tanking his value by playing terribly, then the club could well do so.

At least my head is in the real world when it comes to potential transfers and not the transfers I'm making in football manager or FIFA.

I don't play football manager, or FIFA, or any video games for that matter. I rather watch lots of actual football matches.

 

[dinostar77]

I have already spoken to you about the video - yes I have watched it and it means very little. You could make a similar highlights video showing Ugarte, Zirkzee and Hojlund to be good players at United if you wanted to.

Obviously the official PL channel will have lots of subscribers - and of course it's goal is to hype up the players in its league and provide easy to watch entertainment. It doesn't mean it's properly critical, in-depth analysis though. Other videos on the channel include the likes of "Premier League Bloopers & Funniest Moments From 2025" , "Alexis Mac Allister Makes A Father And Son's Dream Come True" , and "Premier League Players Take on the Internet's Toughest Questions! ".

Real hard-hitting journalism!!!



Probably by his agent.



Unless he has intentionally been tanking his value by playing terribly, then the club could well do so.



I don't play football manager, or FIFA, or any video games for that matter. I rather watch lots of actual football matches.

Let's agree to disagree and see how the transfer window pans out. One thing I'm sure we can both agree on is that we need to nail a CL spot and also get rid of the deadwood to strengthen our position in the transfer market.

 

[bb8]

As interesting as it is to discuss players in other leagues, I'm going with what the reputable journalists have reported. That's INEOS are planning to stick to their strategy of PL proven. It may not be the case for every player they sign this summer, however it does seem from the bits we are hearing publicly, that they have sounded out the agents of Anderson, Tonali, Baleba, João Gomes etc.

Where there is smoke there is fire etc etc. Now Utd could suprise us all with a unexpected signing, but currently what Mitten and other more reputable journalists are saying is that we will follow the same strategy as last summer with Mbeumo and Cunha.

Last year we signed players from a bunch of different leagues. And most of the players you mentioned haven't proven they can be good in the PL yet, as I already said. So it makes no sense to call Carlos Baleba a "PL proven" player. He's been super crummy this season. He's anything but "proven".

What it sounds like you actually mean is "only sign guys who play in the PL", rather than "PL proven". Which is possible, but I doubt it. It's not what we did last year, and it's unlikely to lead to anything but tears. Hard to think of a more foolish strategy than cutting off almost every player from the get go due to league.

 

[goldenboy]

Always hard to say, but I think a huge part of it is down to instruction. His partner in midfield, Tyler Adams, basically never pass forward either. I dont think that was the case when he was in Leeds.

You could be on to something there actually! You seem one of the people on this site who most know their onions...

Tyler Adams was passing the ball forwards more at Leeds, and also at Bournemouth pre-Iraola. I don't know why it would be tactically, but Bournemouth don't seem to progress the ball through central midfield much.

Alex Scott was also a little bit better for this last season.

Anderson was indeed also last season at the age of 22 much closer to where Scott currently is.

I've got no idea how much of an uplift Scott could potentially have in him with his passing game, but it does at least suggest that area of his game might not be a complete lost cause for him. Combined with his defensive qualities, mobility and aerial ability, he certainly seems like someone who could make it on to the shortlist of players worthy of United's consideration. He's the next player I'll focus on watching a few games of. Away at Arsenal next up should be interesting.

The only other slight concern though with him is that he's had 2 lengthy lay-offs from knee injuries in the last 3 seasons. He did have surgery on it in 2024. so perhaps that's sorted it. Hopefully him seemingly managing to have got through this season with no reoccurrence or complications could mean that is behind him...

(The stat used below shows ''Fields Gained by Passes' per 90, i.e. "Relative distance gained toward goal via completed open-play passes per 90"; the trend for all 3 players looks pretty much the same across various progressive pass metrics)

 

[Tallis]

If you've already spent 150mil on 2 CMs one would hope they'd be fairly reliable at PL level. In which case, why does a 3rd midfielder also need to PL proven? Surely there should be room for the 3rd midfielder to be a bit more speculative.

e.g. 30mil can pretty much get you Wouter Burger, Kees Smit, or Nathan De Cat.
Heck, for 15mil you can get Vanja Dragojevic or Matias Siltanen.

Mostly, because success in the PL depends on your squad, not just playing 11. One injury or a player not settling or loss of form should not lead to the collapse of the whole season. That leads to managers getting sacked and us having to start all over again.

Once we have 4 CMs, we can experiment or take risks on the next purchase.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Dani Ceballos. Many will be put off by him because of his time for Arsenal, but he's a really good player with excellent passing ability and technique. A bit injury prone, but I'd take my chances on him, he's not a starter for Real either so probably won't be very expensive.

Too slow for the epl

 

[andersj]

I don't know why it would be tactically, but Bournemouth don't seem to progress the ball through central midfield much.

https://es.coachesvoice.com/cv/cinco-claves-estilo-de-juego-andoni-iraola-bournemouth/

In short: Central midfielders are mainly responsible for structure, support, vertical connection, and counter-pressing, while ball progression is secured more collectively through central overloads, direct passing, width, and forward runs.

Why? Probably risk? As I said, and that is the case for a suitor, it makes it really hard to know his potential as a passer of the ball. But also potentially a good thing. If Scott played for de Zerbi* and looked like a player who could pass he would be alot of competition for him. Sign him on a fee and wage that makes him low risk and possible to shift.

I also thought about what you said about a midfield of Mainoo and Scott. It feels abit like that is always a case with Kobbie. You almost have to have a Rodri to make up for his shortcomings. A midfielder in the PL cant both lack mobility and passing ability. Just cant. Kobbie will have to develop both part of his game. I think and hope he can.

Iraola also kind of show how you can work yourself around the lack of a Rodri. It is not guaranteed his approach would work in a bigger club (he would probably adapt), but having CBs better on the ball would help. As I said earlier, at Man Utd he would probably look to bring in a new CB in the mould of van Hecke, an attacking LB (Raum?) and a winger like Semenyo/Rayan (Diomande?). I also think he would make good use of Dorgu.

Personally, the player I would be willing to spend the most on would not be a midfielder but someone like Diomande if there was even a slight chance. I would rather pay £50 mill for Scott and £100 mill on Diomande than £100 mill on Anderson and £50 mill for Ndiaye.

Oh, and get back to me on Scott when you have been able to see him play for a few games. Will not be able to catch the game against Arsenal myself unfortunatly.

*I think that was the case for Caicedo. He had very little responsibility for passing the ball forward (or passing in general) under Potter and changed greatly with de Zerbi.

 

[Sir Erik ten Hag]

Why is there so little mention of La Liga midfielders? The pinnacle of technical, quality midfielder play; why no scouting of top, young talents from there?

They are not “PL-proven”.

 

[Yagami]

Why is there so little mention of La Liga midfielders? The pinnacle of technical, quality midfielder play; why no scouting of top, young talents from there?

There’s got to be some, right? Some Spanish kid playing for Villarreal or Las Palmas who can turn on a penny and plays 60+ passes a game.

Pablo Barrios at Atletico looks good whenever I see him.

We’ve had some loose links with some guy called Agoume. Stats suggest he’s way more of a defensive midfielder though.

One of my favourite midfielders from the last decade or so has been Sergi Darder. Very underrated player. Is great under pressure with his turns and shielding of the ball, a good passer, can carry the ball, come up with goals, versatile, etc.

I've seen him be the best player on the pitch against Madrid and Barca countless times - including the Madrid-Mallorca game a few days ago. Unfortunately he is 32 now

 

[andersj]

Why is there so little mention of La Liga midfielders? The pinnacle of technical, quality midfielder play; why no scouting of top, young talents from there?

Hugo Sotelo appears to have something of a break through season at Celta. Was always considered a big talent. Not sure how he has developed physically or why he has not played more football at this point. Probably one to watch.

 

[Fortitude]

There’s got to be some, right? Some Spanish kid playing for Villarreal or Las Palmas who can turn on a penny and plays 60+ passes a game.

Pablo Barrios at Atletico looks good whenever I see him.

We’ve had some loose links with some guy called Agoume. Stats suggest he’s way more of a defensive midfielder though.

They are not “PL-proven”.

One of my favourite midfielders from the last decade or so has been Sergi Darder. Very underrated player. Is great under pressure with his turns and shielding of the ball, a good passer, can carry the ball, come up with goals, versatile, etc.

I've seen him be the best player on the pitch against Madrid and Barca countless times - including the Madrid-Mallorca game a few days ago. Unfortunately he is 32 now

Hugo Sotelo appears to have something of a break through season at Celta. Was always considered a big talent. Not sure how he has developed physically or why he has not played more football at this point. Probably one to watch.

Easier to just multi quote and make a general response:

It’s the one thing you can be assured of when watching La Liga is teams attempting to do their best work in midfield. I would be curious in seeing if the data backs up there being more passes, dribbles, carries and interplay there than any other league as a collective; surely you pluck shining lights from there and a lot of problems get solved without much of a fuss.

No insult to the likes of Wharton and Anderson, but both archetypes must be ten a penny over there for fractions of the price if you look hard enough.

 

[AB_89]

As a rotation option for crica £25-30m it would be really hard to find a better option than him.

 

[Lash]

https://es.coachesvoice.com/cv/cinco-claves-estilo-de-juego-andoni-iraola-bournemouth/

In short: Central midfielders are mainly responsible for structure, support, vertical connection, and counter-pressing, while ball progression is secured more collectively through central overloads, direct passing, width, and forward runs.

Why? Probably risk? As I said, and that is the case for a suitor, it makes it really hard to know his potential as a passer of the ball. But also potentially a good thing. If Scott played for de Zerbi* and looked like a player who could pass he would be alot of competition for him. Sign him on a fee and wage that makes him low risk and possible to shift.

I also thought about what you said about a midfield of Mainoo and Scott. It feels abit like that is always a case with Kobbie. You almost have to have a Rodri to make up for his shortcomings. A midfielder in the PL cant both lack mobility and passing ability. Just cant. Kobbie will have to develop both part of his game. I think and hope he can.

Iraola also kind of show how you can work yourself around the lack of a Rodri. It is not guaranteed his approach would work in a bigger club (he would probably adapt), but having CBs better on the ball would help. As I said earlier, at Man Utd he would probably look to bring in a new CB in the mould of van Hecke, an attacking LB (Raum?) and a winger like Semenyo/Rayan (Diomande?). I also think he would make good use of Dorgu.

Personally, the player I would be willing to spend the most on would not be a midfielder but someone like Diomande if there was even a slight chance. I would rather pay £50 mill for Scott and £100 mill on Diomande than £100 mill on Anderson and £50 mill for Ndiaye.

Oh, and get back to me on Scott when you have been able to see him play for a few games. Will not be able to catch the game against Arsenal myself unfortunatly.

*I think that was the case for Caicedo. He had very little responsibility for passing the ball forward (or passing in general) under Potter and changed greatly with de Zerbi.

All comes down to your personnel. Look at all their attackers, they all are best at running in behind. He may be a much more progressive passer in a team set up to play between the line more, but that's where stats won't help you and you have to have someone watch him properly.

Back to Joao Gomes, I actually see him as a more defensive version of Mainoo. If we think Mainoo can play in our midfield, I don't know why Joao Gomes would be a bad buy for the price. they offer very similar qualities, but he offers more defensively - something we lack.

 

[andersj]

Away at Arsenal next up should be interesting.

How was he other than the goal?

 

[goldenboy]

How was he other than the goal?

I thought he was fine. A 6.5 aside from the goal.

Some things were a bit better than I expected, others not as much.

He actually received more of the ball than I anticipated given Bournemouth's supposed usual style. When he got the ball his passing was neat and tidy, very rarely giving it away - but also pretty much always relatively short passes along clear passing lanes, usually to the flanks. Arsenal weren't really on it today pressing wise, and even with lots of time on the ball he didn't really look for, let alone attempt, any longer passes or through-balls. There were a few times when he rather tried to generate impetus by penetrating Arsenal's midfield with dribbles, which wasn't the best idea as he got tackled/shoved off the ball on basically all of them.

His technique is very good, so I wouldn't entirely rule out his passing range improving, but he was sooner to get his head down and charge in to a congested area, than lift his head and ping a ball in behind for the winger on the opposite flank.

Most of his best work was off the ball and in the spaces. He was out-strengthened a few times in direct duels, but with his pace and anticipation he mopped up absolutely loads of loose ball when the ball was being contested by others. Similarly he was good at throwing himself for shot blocks on the edge of the box. The goal was also a case in point, coming from an excellent off the ball run, which he followed with a tidy finish.

At set-pieces he didn't look as much of an asset defensively as I thought he was supposed to be. He was usually positioned on his own at the back post just marking space. He wasn't entrusted with man-marking an opponent, and when a couple of aerial crosses came in near him with Arsenal players attacking, he didn't really do anything to prevent the challenge. As with the ball on the deck, he operated in the spaces and relied on his anticipation; he wasn't as strong at direct aerial duels.

Part of this will be a function of age, but it means he again seems more of a box-to-box runner at the moment. He does ideally need to be paired with someone with a better passing range, probably with a bit more strength in the duel - though at least his defensive work is clearly better than someone like Wharton, meaning he doesn't need to be completely carried by his midfield partner to the same extent.

With the caveat that you would still have lost the set-piece ability in both boxes which Casemiro provides, I could imagine him pairing pretty well in the future with someone like Mateus Fernandes even. Similarly, he'd pair well with other all-rounder types like Anderson. Basically, even though a Rodri/Tchouameni-type pure DM would still be good, they wouldn't be an essential partner for him, as long as the player is at least above average for contesting duels and disrutping opposition dribblers. He and Mainoo could maybe even cope defensively, though I'd still seriously question their ability to break-down low blocks.

I'll try and watch him as well at home to Leeds. That should be a very different, and in some ways tougher test for him. Arsenal were both going for the win but also lacking in energy today, meaning lots of space in front of Scott. Leeds will probably be more compact, and his lack of penetrative play with the ball might be more exposed.

 

[TheReligion]

He’s an underrated player that will get a good move in the summer for sure.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

An obvious Ugarte upgrade.

 

[TheReligion]

An obvious Ugarte upgrade.

He’s a talented player Chief but people here seem to underrate him?

 

[dinostar77]

Surely @goldenboy report on Alex Scott should be on the Alex Scott thread and not João Gomes thread

I like Alex Scott, no idea of what his price would be, £50mil ?

 

[andersj]

Most of his best work was off the ball and in the spaces. He was out-strengthened a few times in direct duels, but with his pace and anticipation he mopped up absolutely loads of loose ball when the ball was being contested by others. Similarly he was good at throwing himself for shot blocks on the edge of the box. The goal was also a case in point, coming from an excellent off the ball run, which he followed with a tidy finish.

Thanks.

And yes, I think one of his best traits is his reading of the game. He is very good at anticipating danger. A bit similar to Rice in that perspect. I like that in young players as it tell you something about their football brain.

In my opinion, both due to wages and what I would guess the fee to be, Scott would probably be my first choice in the PL. I think he would be an excellent option for Man Utd next year regardless of who else they bring in.

I think you are right Mateus Fernandes and him would be a good combo. In all honesty, Fernandes could probably need another year at WHU. But I think Man Utd will get him already this summer;

A) WHU are in the deep financially. I think they need to make profit on a sale.
B) Something about how Mendes operates. Man Utd are looking to sell Ugarte. He will make that happen to make sure he moves on another client (M Fernandes)
C) Why risk waiting? If he continue the trajectory he has been on since WHU finally understood that they had to play him as a CM there will be plenty of competition for him

Do Wilcox have the cojones to go with Fernandes and Scott? Probably not. I would not be surprised at all if it was true we sounded out Bruno G. He would be a good partner for basically all the young players we are linked to and Mainoo. My worry is that he is not good enough to justify the fee or the risk.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

He’s a talented player Chief but people here seem to underrate him?

To be fair. People on here tend to underate EVERY one we are linked to