Joao Gomes

He’d be an excellent signing as the 2nd or 3rd midfield recruit especially if the 30m release is true.

He has good press resistance and technical control, decent playmaking aswell as his standout destroyer ability.
I do also like that he has a good relationship with Cunha.

I think he’s currently underated and people are mis profiling him.

He’d be an #8, ahead of Kobbie and also capable of filling Ugartes role when on the bench.

I think he’d pair well with and Anderson or Guimaraes.
 
It is an insult:

You were besmirching my character by trying to claim that I was posting merely to be argumentative, as opposed to the truth - which was that I had a genuine point which needed to be explained.
It did not have to be explained. It is a rhetorical question, because you don't need to know that to know his duels per 90 to know he is a good duel winner. He is the 2nd leading midfielder for duels won, of course he is good at it. It's like asking for Haaland's goals per 90 when he is the top scorer of the league. It is utterly useless to know that information when he is at the top nearing the end of the season. The fact that you're so hung up on that you think this needed to be explained literally is bonkers.
Obviously in some cases context is needed - eg as with Lukas Nmecha his minutes are mostly as brief cameos off the substitutes' bench. That is less comparable to the minutes of players who start pretty much all their games (as most the top tackling players referenced above tend to do).
So Rice and Caicedo plays more minutes than Joao Gomes, yet Gomes has won more duels. Again, needing per 90 is useless when you know they have played nearly the same minutes, and Gomes still has more duels won. It doesn't mean he is a better player, but he is clearly a good duel winner. Weird why you're trying to argue against that.
For the sake of clarification - it is likely both true that I have way too much time on my hands, as well as being smarter and knowing more about football than the majority of other posters on here. That is not my being "patronising", just a statement of fact.
:lol: You're not a serious person. Do you honestly not realise you're embarrassing yourself here? Sorry, no, constantly going on about Locatelli as if he was Keane when Juventus fans are begging for United to take him from them just demonstrates the opposite. You don't watch football, you look at statistics and graphs.
 
Lies, damned lies, and statistics. Where are you getting that from?

I presume you are using crude and misleading total figures, which would be hugely skewed by the simple fact that Wolves' players have to defend much more than anyone else.

If you look at the more sensible 'Pass-Adjusted Tackles + Interceptions' measure, for instance, then he is 51st out of midfielders in the Premier League (only 47th percentile).

Behind "only" (in order from number 1 in the league down, min 880 minutes): Casemiro, João Palhinha, L. Cook, T. Adams, A. Onana, Andrey Santos, M. Caicedo, Nico González, T. Iroegbunam, V. Janelt, R. Bentancur, G. Xhaka, C. Baleba, B. Kamara, J. Garner, R. Gravenberch, D. Rice, P. Sarr, Rodri, E. Ampadu, A. Scott, L. Miley, Florentino, I. Sangaré, Bruno Fernandes, E. Anderson, A. Mac Allister, E. Le Fée, T. Souček, S. Longstaff, D. Gómez, Bernardo Silva, A. Stach, F. Potts, Y. Tielemans, Y. Yarmoliuk, S. Magassa, S. Berge, Joelinton, Mateus Fernandes, S. Tonali, Y. Ayari, I. Gueye, W. Hughes, J. Henderson, , J. Cullen, K. Mainoo, André, M. Munetsi, X. Simons.

Even if you look at raw, unadjusted per 90 tackles+interception numbers, he's behind Joao Palinha (6.61) , M. Caicedo (5.80), and F. Luis (5.71), T. Adams (4.21), and joint 5th on 3.94 with M. Fernandes and D. Gomez. The first 3 are way out in front. Joao Gomes' number is near enough the same as Casemiro (3.94 vs 3.73).

When you add in other defensive measures he continues to look less impressive.. 23rd for Clearances per 90. 14th for Blocks per 90.

When you throw all this together with the fact Wolves have to do so much defending as a team, he's only around 40th percentile for PL CMs at
'Threat Prevented'.



I don't know where you're getting this from either? Where I'm looking he's outside the top 10.

Also, dribble-first (as opposed to pass first) players aren't really what you want from someone you'd be principally signing hypothetically as a DM to keep games tight, as they vacate the space behind them.

He might overall be a tiny bit less limited than eg Ugarte, but that's a low bar. Overall he's still too limited, and I'd want more if United were only signing 2 or 3 midfielders in the summer.
More sensible according to who exactly? There's so many limitations to the poss-adjusted tackles metric that it's rare to even hear it being cited.

Firstly the math assumes that defensive opportunities scale linearly with possession, they don't. A team with 80% possession isn't just defending less they're defending in a completely different tactical shape (high press) compared to a team with 30% (low block) You're using s metric that almost guaranteed to over inflate the defensive stats of these players.

It also completely ignores game state and doesn't account for whether a team is winning or losing. A team winning 2-0 will often drop deep and invite pressure, naturally increasing defensive opportunities- Mainoo's best game this season he made: Tackles (3) Interceptions (2) Clearances (1) Block (1)- This was against Manchester City in a game we were winning. Go look at his ball winning stats in games we're losing- it's not even remotely close. He didn't transform into a defensive monster for one game it happened because we were winning and this same trend can be observed with basically every CM in the league.

Wolves are unsurprisingly #1 in the league for match time in a losing position this season at a fairly staggering 57.8% of the time, meaning Gomes spends more time than any other CM defending in emergency game states instead of stable ones, although in the most recent win against Liverpool when Wolves were never behind Gomes managed: Tackles (6) Interceptions (1) Clearances (1) Blocks (2) and was given MOTM.

Why are you leaving out metrics like passes per defensive action? Or his duel success rate? You can easily identify the midfielders who have the highest levels of individual pressing volume and defensive actions per 90 minutes and to date I'm yet to see a single major analytics site where Joao Gomes doesn't rank near the top of defensive contribution points, he's 2nd in the premier league for ball recoveries and 96th percentile for possession won. Can you show me any major site that doesn't feature Gomes among the best in the league when all these factors are taken into account?

You're entire argument here is that we have to look at it according to poss-adjusted tackles because it's..... sensible? The litmus test for any metric in the world of analytics is if the individual is aware of where said metric falls short and thus doesn't over/undervalue it. This metric will always punish players in a low possession but often losing team and with Wolves becoming the first team in premier league history to reach the halfway stage without a single win it would be more accurate to say it's the least "sensible" metric you could use than the most.
 
Eurgh.



There isn't anything "elite" about Tonali - Newcastle's joint 3rd best central midfielder...



Someone with a sensible opinion in this thread.
There’s an awful lot that’s elite about Tonali, that’s why he’s coveted by Arsenal, City, Juventus. He’s not the tallest but his passing, energy, mobility and eye for a goal means he’s worth £70-80m more so than Baleba ever was?
 
Firstly the math assumes that defensive opportunities scale linearly with possession, they don't. A team with 80% possession isn't just defending less they're defending in a completely different tactical shape (high press) compared to a team with 30% (low block) You're using s metric that almost guaranteed to over inflate the defensive stats of these players.

Is a team with higher possession really always defending in a high press?... Surely it would partly depend on how well they manage to advance the ball, and how worried they are about counter attacks.

And is Casemiro a player who really primarily defends at United via a high press?... He doesn't appear to be. If anything that is instigated more by eg Bruno Fernandes, yet Casemiro significantly outperforms him on the P-Adj metric.

A team winning 2-0 will often drop deep and invite pressure, naturally increasing defensive opportunities-

Then this should be reflected by teams who are more often ahead having typically less possession overall - but the opposite is the case.

If it were the case, then teams more often ahead would have their total tackles+interceptions stats reduced by making them Pass-adjusted, given you claim that they should be spending more time dropping deep, inviting pressure and allowing the opponent the ball. But the opposite is the case, as regardless of changing game state they will still typically have more possession across the match.

However, weaker teams will often drop deep and invite pressure even from the kick-off - naturally increasing defensive opportunities. Weaker teams will tend to play less expansive football, even once they have fallen behind, or else they will be picked off by the opponent.

Most people intuitively know that the forwards at stronger teams will get more opportunities to score... the flip-side is that defensive players at weaker teams will get more opportunities to defend.

He didn't transform into a defensive monster for one game

He actually did - the whole United team played like super-charged monsters that game. Did you not watch it?

But that game vs City was also by far the one where United had the least of the ball this season at just 31.9% - this again supports the concept I've stated that your opponent having more of the ball does increase the need and opportunity for more defensive actions.

meaning Gomes spends more time than any other CM defending in emergency game states instead of stable ones, although in the most recent win against Liverpool when Wolves were never behind Gomes managed: Tackles (6) Interceptions (1) Clearances (1) Blocks (2) and was given MOTM

Your highlighting this game also actually supports my view more than anything. Although you try and twist things in saying Wolves were never behind, they weren't ahead until the 78th minute. Liverpool dominated possession throughout the entire match, totalling 65.8% of the ball. Perhaps in line with the Mainoo vs City example you gave above, a player making more tackles could merely be a function of more tackles and defending being required when playing against opponents better than you who dominate the ball. That occurs more often for the weakest teams. Weaker teams are less likely to dominate possession, whether winning, drawing or losing.

Why are you leaving out metrics like passes per defensive action?

If I had access to it I would use it. Are you able to show it?...

I'm yet to see a single major analytics site where Joao Gomes doesn't rank near the top of defensive contribution points, he's 2nd in the premier league for ball recoveries and 96th percentile for possession won. Can you show me any major site that doesn't feature Gomes among the best in the league when all these factors are taken into account?

Again, those are not relativised stats. The only defensive stats of his I have which are relativised are his tackles+interceptions. But relativising them does bring him down from one of the few highest performers for the total tackles+interceptions to having many players ahead of him. That would surely also be the case for whichever other defensive metric one would care to relativise.

Btw, if you also want to take all defensive actions in to account, Joao Gomes is also out of PL CMs 18th for blocks per 90, 29th for clearances per 90 and bottom 1/3rd percentile for defensive headers per 90 (all before adjusting for possession). He is also number 1! for, erm, fouls committed...

Pertinently, if you also look at the very much possession-neutral stat of "% of Dribblers Tackled', you'd see that Joao Gomes at 51% is merely 31st out of PL CMs. Funnily and unsurprisingly enough, those above him on this all tend to be the players who elsewhere feature above him for 'Pass-Adjusted Tackles+Interceptions', which again underlines that Joao Gomes' numbers are skewed by having more opportunities to defend (through game circumstance, plus also minutes on the pitch if you pretend to ignore per 90 stats).

Finally, when you do look at your "major analytics site" - consider that typically 50% or more of the highest players for duels, tackles, recoveries etc., both on a total and per 90 basis, come from players at the bottom 6 clubs in the table... while rarely more than a few of them are from the top 6 clubs...

Am I really supposed to believe that the bottom 6 clubs, with typically inferior players, have somehow miraculously managed to in most cases find superior players than the top 6 at winning the ball in midfield?! Or again, is there something else at play here...
 
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He is the 2nd leading midfielder for duels won, of course he is good at it. It's like asking for Haaland's goals per 90 when he is the top scorer of the league.

As per my comment above, people still intuitively know that the forwards at the superior sides get more opportunities to score. By the same token, the defensive players at the inferior teams have more opportunities to defend, which will contribute to boosting their numbers.

You don't watch football, you look at statistics and graphs.

In recent weeks I've watched 2+ matches of the following players who have shown up well in my research in to relatively defensive central midfielders, or have been cited by others on here, with a focused eye on them: Chema Andres, Burger, Avdullahu, Nmecha, Martel, Manzambi, Locatelli, Thuram, Manú Koné, Ederson, Pape Gueye, Agoumé, Pablo Barrios, Aleksandar Stankovic, Mamadou Sangaré, Anderson, Ampadu, Janelt, Baleba, Scott, Mateus Fernandes, Yarmoliuk. There might be a few others as well.

I have probably been watching on average 2+ football matches per day of late (and not only matches with the purpose of watching a midfielder).
 
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Is a team with higher possession really always defending in a high press?... Surely it would partly depend on how well they manage to advance the ball, and how worried they are about counter attacks.
A team with higher possession won't always defend in a high press just like a team with low possession numbers won't always defend in a low block.

And is Casemiro a player who really primarily defends at United via a high press?... He doesn't appear to be. If anything that is instigated more by eg Bruno Fernandes, yet Casemiro significantly outperforms him on the P-Adj metric.
Casemiro ranks higher than Bruno because they're in the same team therefore the bias I highlighted wouldn't apply and he's a far superior defensive player. It should be rather obvious looking at the players you listed "above" Gomes that the statistic was heavily biasing higher possession teams since almost every player in it plays for a team in the top half of the table- even among those who don't you can see players like Tonali/Simons who play for champions league teams that while in the bottom half regularly have more possession than opponents.

Then this should be reflected by teams who are more often ahead having typically less possession overall - but the opposite is the case.

If it were the case, then teams more often ahead would have their total tackles+interceptions stats reduced by making them Pass-adjusted, given you claim that they should be spending more time dropping deep, inviting pressure and allowing the opponent the ball. But the opposite is the case, as regardless of changing game state they will still typically have more possession across the match.

However, weaker teams will often drop deep and invite pressure even from the kick-off - naturally increasing defensive opportunities. Weaker teams will tend to play less expansive football, even once they have fallen behind, or else they will be picked off by the opponent.

Most people intuitively know that the forwards at stronger teams will get more opportunities to score... the flip-side is that defensive players at weaker teams will get more opportunities to defend.
I would love to see the evidence that teams who are winning typically end up with more possession than when they're losing since everything I've read over the last decade shows teams who are winning a game will almost always see the their possession numbers drop in that game state. Please show me the evidence to support your claim here.

He actually did - the whole United team played like super-charged monsters that game. Did you not watch it?

But that game vs City was also by far the one where United had the least of the ball this season at just 31.9% - this again supports the concept I've stated that your opponent having more of the ball does increase the need and opportunity for more defensive actions.
No, it supports the claim that when you're winning a game you're much more likely to end up with lower possession than you would if you were chasing the game - it correlates with game state.
Your highlighting this game also actually supports my view more than anything. Although you try and twist things in saying Wolves were never behind, they weren't ahead until the 78th minute. Liverpool dominated possession throughout the entire match, totalling 65.8% of the ball. Perhaps in line with the Mainoo vs City example you gave above, a player making more tackles could merely be a function of more tackles and defending being required when playing against opponents better than you who dominate the ball. That occurs more often for the weakest teams. Weaker teams are less likely to dominate possession, whether winning, drawing or losing.
I'm not trying to "twist" anything, I would assume that someone who goes around this forum referring to other posters as "casuals" would be aware of game state but apparently not.

If I had access to it I would use it. Are you able to show it?...



Again, those are not relativised stats. The only defensive stats of his I have which are relativised are his tackles+interceptions. But relativising them does bring him down from one of the few highest performers for the total tackles+interceptions to having many players ahead of him. That would surely also be the case for whichever other defensive metric one would care to relativise.

Btw, if you also want to take all defensive actions in to account, Joao Gomes is also out of PL CMs 18th for blocks per 90, 29th for clearances per 90 and bottom 1/3rd percentile for defensive headers per 90 (all before adjusting for possession). He is also number 1! for, erm, fouls committed...

Pertinently, if you also look at the very much possession-neutral stat of "% of Dribblers Tackled', you'd see that Joao Gomes at 55% is merely 31st out of PL CMs. Funnily and unsurprisingly enough, those above him on this all tend to be the players who elsewhere feature above him for 'Pass-Adjusted Tackles+Interceptions', which again underlines that Joao Gomes' numbers are skewed by having more opportunities to defend (through game circumstance, plus also minutes on the pitch if you pretend to ignore per 90 stats).

Finally, when you do look at your "major analytics site" - consider that typically 50% or more of the highest players for duels, tackles, recoveries etc., both on a total and per 90 basis, come from players at the bottom 6 clubs in the table... while rarely more than a few of them are from the top 6 clubs...

Am I really supposed to believe that the bottom 6 clubs, with typically inferior players, have somehow miraculously managed to in most cases find superior players than the top 6 at winning the ball in midfield?! Or again, is there something else at play here...
Game state is a relativised statistic too. If you think it's surely the case that his defensive numbers would drop under those conditions then why don't you try it and get back to me.

Are you typing out 'Pass-Adjusted Tackles+Interceptions' but actually mean 'Possession adjusted tackles + interceptions'?

I'm fully aware that simply looking at total tackle/interception etc is a limited metric that doesn't tell the whole story for any player hence why I brought up all of the other advanced analytics (which he excels in) but you seem to be completely oblivious to the limitations of that metric for all the reasons I've already highlighted.
 
Casemiro ranks higher than Bruno because they're in the same team therefore the bias I highlighted wouldn't apply and he's a far superior defensive player.

If what matters is that a player adopts a high press, as you claim, then that should surely mean their stats manage to be better despite being an inferior defensive player? That seems to be the muddled heart of your premise.

Why also does Andre at Wolves manage to have a higher pass-adjusted T+I score than Joao Gomes, despite them being in the same team?...

It should be rather obvious looking at the players you listed "above" Gomes that the statistic was heavily biasing higher possession teams since almost every player in it plays for a team in the top half of the table

You are clearly just lying here.

There is at least one player from every single other team in the Premier League ahead of Joao Gomes, as well as Andre and Munetsi, from the same team, ahead of Joao Gomes. Explain that?...

West Ham and Burnley also have slightly lower possession than Burnley, and yet Soucek, Mateus Fernandes, Potts, Magassa, Cullen and Florentino Luis are all ahead of Joao Gomes (Florentino Luis significantly so). Explain that one as well...

Everton and Sunderland also have barely more possession than Wolves, and yet Iroebugnam and Xhaka are a respectable 9th and 12th in the table. Spurs are still only 10th in the league for possession, and yet Joao Palinha manages to be 2nd on the whole table.

I would love to see the evidence that teams who are winning typically end up with more possession than when they're losing since everything I've read over the last decade shows teams who are winning a game will almost always see the their possession numbers drop in that game state. Please show me the evidence to support your claim here.

When a team is ahead their possession will typically fall relative to before they were ahead. Sure, I never said otherwise. However, that is ultimately irrelevant - because the stat is for the possession/minutes with the ball across a match.

Say the superior Team L plays relegation zone Team W, and spends the first half with 70% possession, then they go ahead on the stroke of half time. Then in the second-half they drop to 40% possession and so will still have recorded 55% possession for the match.
This is obviously still higher than Team W, who have only 30% possession while the scores are even, then manage 60% when behind (so 45% for the match overall).

Similarly, a player for said Team L which has had 70% possession first half, then 40% second half, will have more tackling opportunities in the second half after going ahead than in the first. However, over the full 90 minutes they will still have fewer tackling opportunities than the player of Team W, whose team have only 30% possession first half, yet 60% possession second half.

Considering that the teams which are winning more more often still manage to have higher average total possession per match and across the season than teams which are losing more often, this seems a fair example that satisfies all assumptions.

Are you typing out 'Pass-Adjusted Tackles+Interceptions' but actually mean 'Possession adjusted tackles + interceptions'?

It is in effect the same thing. Maybe I should switch to saying possession-adjusted if it helps for clarity, but regardless it means the time the opponent spends with the ball.

I'm fully aware that simply looking at total tackle/interception etc is a limited metric that doesn't tell the whole story for any player hence why I brought up all of the other advanced analytics (which he excels in) but you seem to be completely oblivious to the limitations of that metric for all the reasons I've already highlighted.

Just adding more total volume metrics, which are flawed in the exact same way as eg total duels, is not "advanced analytics".

The way you talk does not seem to indicate you are "fully aware" of the limitations of said total metrics. Said total metrics clearly favour players at the worst teams who on average spend more time without the ball and having to defend.

On a per 90 basis Joao Gomes already starts falling behind other players in low possession, bottom 6 teams. On the more accurate and sensible possession adjusted measures - including % dribblers tackled, which you completely ignored my reference to - he falls further again.
 
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It is in effect the same thing. Maybe I should switch to saying possession-adjusted if it helps for clarity, but regardless it means the time the opponent spends with the ball.
This is a very poor understanding of how these metrics work and what they're measuring. They are most certainly not the same thing. Possession adjusted looks at everything a player does while the ball is in play and his team is out of possession, pass adjusted only looks at opponent passes.

Possession is the standard over pass because you are defending the entire time your team doesn't have the ball, not just while the opponent is passing.

You can make tackles while opponents are dribbling, counter attacking, during a loose ball scramble or a heavy touch- none of which involve a pass. Do you think a players ability to win 50-50 tackles from loose balls, stop dribblers or counter attacks and press so intensely you force bad touches might be something worth considering when we're talking about central midfielders? It would be borderline malpractice to ignore all these when scouting for the type of midfield profile this United team needs, both Elliot Anderson and Gomes excel in these areas.

If they are in effect the same thing then please tell me where Gomes ranks for Poss adjusted. I'm sure all of those players will still be ahead of him when we factor in 50/50 tackles, dribbles, transitions, heavy touch etc since it's the same thing.
Just adding more total volume metrics, which are flawed in the exact same way as eg total duels, is not "advanced analytics".

The way you talk does not seem to indicate you are "fully aware" of the limitations of said total metrics. Said total metrics clearly favour players at the worst teams who on average spend more time without the ball and having to defend.

On a per 90 basis Joao Gomes already starts falling behind other players in low possession, bottom 6 teams. On the more accurate and sensible possession adjusted measures - including % dribblers tackled, which you completely ignored my reference to - he falls further again.
Total duel is a volume metric, efficiency is not. A bad player making a very high volume of defensive actions can easily be identified when you look at the efficiency. Gomes has a very high volume of defensive actions and also has a very high efficiency rating, which suggests an excellent defensive player.

I agree that possession measured is a more sensible metric than pass, but you're the one whose been citing pass and claiming it's the same thing.
 
If they are in effect the same thing then please tell me where Gomes ranks for Poss adjusted.

I meant they are in effect the same in the sense of being relativised to the opponent having the ball.

However, the data I've shown is Poss-adjusted (rather than Pass).

I have shown e.g. in my post above and my earlier post below when initially presenting the data that I know and understand the definition of the data I have been showing:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/midfielders-other-than-the-obvious.491442/post-34083113
https://dataglossary.wyscout.com/p_adj/

Tbh I'm not entirely sure how I came to initially label my graph Pass-Adj rather than Poss-Adj. Maybe reading too many articles on the trials and tribulations of finding useful defensive metrics. I've rectified it now.

and also has a very high efficiency rating

51% and 31st of PL CMs is alright, but not "very high". There are players like Joao Palinha, Caicedo, Nico Gonzalez, Ampadu, Onana, Berge, Adams who have both high Poss-Adj and per 90 tackle volume, plus 64%+ dribblers tackled efficiency rating (Joao Palinha at 75% is what I would call "very high"). The aforementioned Florentino Luis also again outperforms Joao Gomes here at 58%, as does Wolves' Munetsi at 53%.
 
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Affordable, but he isn't going to take you where you want to be, so its just a treading water signing.
 
Affordable, but he isn't going to take you where you want to be, so its just a treading water signing.
If you want to compete in four competitions, you need squad depth. Something we are badly lacking and Arsenal, Chelsea and City have in abundance.
 
You don't improve by adding squad players.
You only improve by adding first team players, pushing your current first choices onto the bench, and your current bench into the squad.
 
You don't improve by adding squad players.
You only improve by adding first team players, pushing your current first choices onto the bench, and your current bench into the squad.
Not wholly true. Improving the squad improves the team.
 
In the case of our midfield, it's more important to raise the ceiling than raise the floor. Not sure he's the guy for that.
 
In the case of our midfield, it's more important to raise the ceiling than raise the floor. Not sure he's the guy for that.
This sums it up for me.

I don't think you can say it never makes sense to bring in players as backup or to offer a different option, but the specific situation of our midfield this summer calls for a couple of top quality players. If we can achieve that and still have room for Gomes then it could make sense.
 
Why would they be adjusted to per 90 minutes? He has won 5th most duels in the league. Why would you need to know how many duels he wins per 90? This just seems like you're desperate to win an argument more than anything else. Maybe he is just good defensively, which may be why he is getting caps for Brazil?

Makes sense to adjust for per 90 (and only include players with enough minutes). Otherwise a player with 3000 minutes and 120 duels won looks like he's winning duels a lot more often than someone with 2000 minutes and 100 duels when he's actually winning less.
 
Makes sense to adjust for per 90 (and only include players with enough minutes). Otherwise a player with 3000 minutes and 120 duels won looks like he's winning duels a lot more often than someone with 2000 minutes and 100 duels when he's actually winning less.
I understand why per 90 is of interest and what it does, but the poster was acting like raw numbers are meaningless. You don't look at Bruno's chances created in the league and go like "yeah, but what about his chances created per 90?!"

If you top a stat with raw numbers in the Premier League this close to the end of the season, it is clearly a strength of that player.
 
You don't improve by adding squad players.
You only improve by adding first team players, pushing your current first choices onto the bench, and your current bench into the squad.

Often true, but it really depends on the circumstances. If we’re losing Casemiro and hopefully Ugarte this summer then ideally we need three CMs. Given budget constraints two starters plus a “squad” option player could very well improve us. To cite a recent example, Dorgu was brought in as an affordable and versatile squad player and had improved our squad.
 
Not wholly true. Improving the squad improves the team.
The point is you improve the squad by improving the first team so your current first choice are now your squad options
 
I understand why per 90 is of interest and what it does, but the poster was acting like raw numbers are meaningless. You don't look at Bruno's chances created in the league and go like "yeah, but what about his chances created per 90?!"

If your job is to analyse football data to figure out what it tells you about the respective quality of a player, then you will 100% be digging deeper than just the total numbers. Ian Graham, Liverpool's former head of data science talks about this in his book 'How to Win the Premier League'. Even the player with highest chances created per 90 isn't necessarily the most effective player at creating chances - there'll be lots more data and circumstances around the creation of said chances which would be delved in to.

The goal is not to just find someone to award a trophy for the tackles equivalent of the 'Golden Boot' at the end of the season - you're trying to figure out who is ultimately the most effective player capable of helping the team the most in future.

If, for example, you tried to claim that Player A was best and would be a better purchase than Player B, because you just looked at last season's total numbers and A's were slightly higher - but ignored that eg Player B missed one month of league football due to being away at the Afcon and otherwise would have had the higher number - then already you may be making a mistake in missing the more effective player. There are many more such caveats which will be further needed to apply to determine who is ultimately the better option.

I will also again remind you that attacking players at stronger teams tend to get more opportunities to create chances and score goals overall, and on the flipside defensive players at weaker teams tend to get more opportunities to make defensive actions overall.
 
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The point is you improve the squad by improving the first team so your current first choice are now your squad options
Yes but you can also improve the squad by raising the floor of the squad. Both approaches work, they probably need to be done together. Like how Arsenal picked up Zubamendi for the first team and Norgard for the squad in one window.
 
I understand why per 90 is of interest and what it does, but the poster was acting like raw numbers are meaningless. You don't look at Bruno's chances created in the league and go like "yeah, but what about his chances created per 90?!"

If you top a stat with raw numbers in the Premier League this close to the end of the season, it is clearly a strength of that player.

People do that all the time, its just that those numbers are still good and even if they arent as good then playing every week makes up for it and isnt something every player can manage. Even with his injury this season Bruno has played 47 mins more and its unlike Bruno to have any injury time off.

For Gomes, Ugarte has better ball winning stats per 90 mins. However I think for any sensible person this isnt why they would be unconvinced by Ugarte and arent looking for someone to who has the exact same ball winning numbers or better. The problem is that on the ball he can give it away when pressed with a poor pass or touch. And when we have most of the ball he offers no creativity to help break teams down. Now there is a role a DM can play where they arent asked to help create and they can concentrate on defending. But it doesnt suit our current team because we don't have someone extremely creative to pair with him ala Bruno who is playing as a #10 and overall when taking into account defending and attacking, Casemiro is playing better. So why would you pick Ugarte?

But likewise why would you pick a midfielder who, like another from his club was dropped from the national team and Casemiro came in and took the spot? Casemiro is clearly still better. Gomes and Andre dont even make the bench.
 
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If your job is to analyse football data to figure out what it tells you about the respective quality of a player, then you will 100% be digging deeper than just the total numbers. Ian Graham, Liverpool's former head of data science talks about this in his book 'How to Win the Premier League'. Even the player with highest chances created per 90 isn't necessarily the most effective player at creating chances - there'll be lots more data and circumstances around the creation of said chances which would be delved in to.

The goal is not to just find someone to award a trophy for the tackles equivalent of the 'Golden Boot' at the end of the season - you're trying to figure out who is ultimately the most effective player capable of helping the team the most in future.

If, for example, you tried to claim that Player A was best and would be a better purchase than Player B, because you just looked at last season's total numbers and A's were slightly higher - but ignored that eg Player B missed one month of league football due to being away at the Afcon and otherwise would have had the higher number - then already you may be making a mistake in missing the more effective player. There are many more such caveats which will be further needed to apply to determine who is ultimately the better option.

I will also again remind you that attacking players at stronger teams tend to get more opportunities to create chances and score goals overall, and on the flipside defensive players at weaker teams tend to get more opportunities to make defensive actions overall.
My job isn't to analyse football data. I argued that he was a good duel winner, which he is. I don't care about Player A or Player B. The guy is number 2 for winning duels as a midfielder, despite not being anywhere close to top for minutes played. I'm not even saying we should sign him or that he is a great midfielder. I just think he could be interesting and should be considered. Not by me, by people who know what they're doing.
 
He’d be an excellent signing as the 2nd or 3rd midfield recruit especially if the 30m release is true.

He has good press resistance and technical control, decent playmaking aswell as his standout destroyer ability.
I do also like that he has a good relationship with Cunha.

I think he’s currently underated and people are mis profiling him.

He’d be an #8, ahead of Kobbie and also capable of filling Ugartes role when on the bench.

I think he’d pair well with and Anderson or Guimaraes.
http://www.molineuxmix.co.uk/forum/...s-the-complete-midfielder.755446/post-8452537

Most substantive post I could find about him from a Wolves fan. Likens him to a Mascherano/Deschamps style #6. Later on they say Vickery said that was his game in Brazil, too.

Doesn't mean he's a bad fit with us. Seems like we need 2 CMs at minimum and one of them should be a #6, but does sound like there's risk of a lack of vision and with Mainoo not being a very creative passer, it could be an issue.

Though if Bruno is staying say another 2 years and Ugarte is sold, a prem-proven tackling #6 makes sense as a 2nd signing along with Anderson or Guimaraes, yeah.
 
My job isn't to analyse football data.

This basically goes without saying...

Not by me, by people who know what they're doing.

Nice of you to admit that you don't know what you're doing.

despite not being anywhere close to top for minutes played

He's joint 8th for minutes played out of non-attacking CMs.

Can you acknowledge that you have read and considered the following sentence?....

"I will also again remind you that attacking players at stronger teams tend to get more opportunities to create chances and score goals overall, and on the flipside defensive players at weaker teams tend to get more opportunities to make defensive actions overall."

I have made this point to you repeatedly, yet you somehow manage to miss or not comprehend it every single time.
 
He's 8th for minutes played out of non-attacking CMs.

Can you acknowledge that you have read and considered the following sentence?....

"I will also again remind you that attacking players at stronger teams tend to get more opportunities to create chances and score goals overall, and on the flipside defensive players at weaker teams tend to get more opportunities to make defensive actions overall."

I have made this point to you repeatedly, yet you somehow manage to miss or not comprehend it every single time.
I'm ignoring it because you have no idea what you're talking about and your debate with the other poster that literally proved you wrong shows that. All of your points are always completely devoid of context, and you're using nothing but data to argue your case and it's just incredibly tedious. It's like you don't have opinions yourself.

Nice of you to admit that you don't know what you're doing.
Mate, you're goldenboy on redcafe, not some elite football scout with a big network :lol:
 
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He's an ascending player who is top tier at pressing and adding more to his game in terms of dribbling and passing the ball. He has been a crucial part of Wolves recent run of good form.

Here is a great breakdown of why he's a player that should be of interest to us this summer.

 
For the second choice midfielder in the next tier of players. He had to be top of the list with Baleba.

He’s performance against Liverpool sold me. He’s only going to get better.

He’s very good at JuJitsu too - so even for a small guy he can handle himself.
 
I've always thought he's tidy but not sure if United quality. However, selling Ugarte and getting this guy for a discount would be an astute piece of business. Good enough for 3rd or 4th choice.
 
We need 3 CMs for next season if we sell Ugarte. He is a decent option for that 3rd CM spot. He is not like for like replacement for Ugarte but thats ok.

24, PL proven, talented player, inexpensive
 
We need 3 CMs for next season if we sell Ugarte. He is a decent option for that 3rd CM spot. He is not like for like replacement for Ugarte but thats ok.

24, PL proven, talented player, inexpensive
The YouTube analysis looks amazing, great to see a round action midfielder who prefers driving the ball forward instead sideways and back passing.
 
I think you could sign him and Camavinga (if reports are to be believed), for the price Anderson goes for. I think that would be far better business. It does reduce us aerially a bit, but it's not like Anderson would really do much for us there either.
 
The YouTube analysis looks amazing, great to see a round action midfielder who prefers driving the ball forward instead sideways and back passing.

I've mentioned this before, but ideally you don't want your deepest lying, most defensive-minded central midfielder to be "dribble first" (as opposed to pass first), as they vacate the space they should be protecting if they then lose the ball. Newcastle fans have had beef with Tonali for doing that, leaving them exposed and caught out at the back.

It would be preferable for a DM to mainly progress the ball up the pitch with their passing.
 
At 35m he's a no brainer. He's a machine who can play both as a DM or as a no 8. These are the sort of players we should buy in
 
Impressive defensive stats with the added bonus of being very good at dribbling. For 35-40m, we should be all over this.
 
He's an ascending player who is top tier at pressing and adding more to his game in terms of dribbling and passing the ball. He has been a crucial part of Wolves recent run of good form.

Here is a great breakdown of why he's a player that should be of interest to us this summer.


Thanks for posting. Haven't seen enough of him play. Didn't realise what a good player he was. If we can get him for circa £30-40mil, it seems a no brainer.
 
Impressive defensive stats with the added bonus of being very good at dribbling. For 35-40m, we should be all over this.

Good player. Good option. But if we get two, I hope he is not one. If we get three maybe, but I would prefer a big talent as the third option.

Could be wrong, but I think there is quite a few others I would prefer to Gomes. If the club cant get Anderson, Garner or Tonali, there might be a need for more experience and physically imposing players than a few of younger (Fernandes, Wharton, Scott) options offer.