John Barnes: "...keeping players happy, I think it’s a recipe for disaster."

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Why?

A manager is worth a lot less than even an average first team. There's no way a manager is worth more than a squad of 23 players who cost about 400m to assemble.
Without a manager having close to absolute power with in reason. You inevitably invent a culture in which the players have the power and they can easily turn on a manager who demands perfection and discipline from them. Allowing them to hide behind the manager when they under perform, safe in the knowledge the pressure is on him, never them.
Easily revolting any time they don't have their way.

When players know they can NEVER be allowed to cross a manager. They all stay in line.
 

Jeffthered

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Yep, he's right... why should a club, especially a club with the history of Manchester Untd, have to keep players happy. Definitely should be the other way around, and if the players do not like it, then see you later and all the best.

Players like Keane, Ronaldo, Cantona.. no one could even begin to ever doubt their attitude towards playing for the club. And...they delivered, season after season.. and they wanted to deliver, season in, season out.

Now we have a squad with so called 'top players..' who we have no idea what they will do in the next 45 minutes, let alone a season.
 

Lentwood

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If that's the case why is it that Fergie didn't use a one size fits all attitude in regards to handling his players egos?
SAF drew a clear line in the sand, all of the players knew what was expected of them and if they crossed that line, very often there was no way back

Barnes isn't saying that managers need to be authoritarian schoolmaster types who kick and scream at players. He is saying that the manager needs to have authority and needs to be able to assert it

For example, if Jose took issue with Martial and wanted him gone, he should have been gone - simple as that. Imagine if the Glazers had been around when SAF decided to get rid of David Beckham....probably THE most famous and marketable footballer of his generation....how do you think that would have gone down?
 

King7Eric

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Pretty much what Rooney had been saying. You got to fear the manager and you have to know he has the ultimate power, not a motley group of players.
 

Buster15

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Without a manager having close to absolute power with in reason. You inevitably invent a culture in which the players have the power and they can easily turn on a manager who demands perfection and discipline from them. Allowing them to hide behind the manager when they under perform, safe in the knowledge the pressure is on him, never them.
Easily revolting any time they don't have their way.

When players know they can NEVER be allowed to cross a manager. They all stay in line.
Very true.
The manager has to earn the players respect by demonstrating his knowledge and capabilities.
Once he has done that he must be given the authority to lead the squad without his players questioning his decisions.
 

fastwalker

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Ok so lets stop kidding ourselves here; professional footballers have almost all the power in the modern game and that is almost entirely to do with money.

We have pandered to professional footballers and plied them with money like a drunk on a pub crawl. In most cases elite players earn more than their managers and a few even earn wages similar to some Hollywood. Yet we are surprised when they have the Hollywood attitudes to match. Footballers are not only paid exorbitant wages but also appearance fees, win bonuses and goals bonuses. Then there are the sponsorships, endorsements and extra curricular earnings that add millions more to a top players wage.

If that is not enough, they are allowed to break their contracts blatantly refusing to show up for training, fein injury and go on strike. Yet we wonder why some players feel that they shouldn't be shouted at? We wonder why players might think it is the manager's job to make them happy? In principle John Barnes is absolutely right of course, but in practice he is living in fantasy land. That is not how the modern game work and if he doesn't know that then he is completely out of touch.

Today unhappy players have the whip hand. They can stall on contract negotiations, play one club against another in their bid to get a better deal and impose the ultimate sanction and get their manager the sack.

Heloooo? Welcome to the modern day game where your average mid-range Premier League player can earn more in a week that an average fan earns in probably two years. Not just that but where every player has an agent and where elite players have a retinue of business managers, accountants and personal staff in tow. We don't have to like it, but I am afraid we are going to have to live with it.
 

7even

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The principals are the same whenever someone tries to command a group. Authority comes from handling the power the right way.
 

Eric7C

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The principals are the same whenever someone tries to command a group. Authority comes from handling the power the right way.
:lol:

I watched this imagining the faces of our players on the puppies.
 

Paxi

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fecking bang on, the players should be keeping the management happy not the other way round, gaffer ain't happy, you are on the bench. Gaffer still ain't happy, you are out of the door.
I agree with this but this is hard to implement at United. We have players who are way overpaid and we can’t shift them as no club are willing to give them the same wages. We’ve fecked ourselves not just with Sanchez but with offering stupid contacts to average players.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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I agree with this but this is hard to implement at United. We have players who are way overpaid and we can’t shift them as no club are willing to give them the same wages. We’ve fecked ourselves not just with Sanchez but with offering stupid contacts to average players.
Yes dealing with players earning massive money and not really caring can be really hard. You can try to push them, but if they are not trying hard enough you can't do much. Bench them and let them play with the reserves I guess could send a message. I guess Mourinho did that with Bastian although strange he sent him there from the start.
 

liamp

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:lol:

Nobody's even saying that managers shouldn't be allowed to shout at players and you absolutely have to keep the players happy just like you should seek to keep the coaches, trainers, groundskeepers and other staff happy.

This reductive old-school nonsense has to stop. Why is it that people are so hard-up for some sort of autocratic regime where the manager rules absolutely with an iron fist?
 

SCJY

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I keep hearing "kids, kids, kids"... as far as I'm concerned, we haven't got any kids anymore. It's not like the class of 1992, when United had a team of men, and SAF introduced a set of players form the youth setup who played together and younger that most of the first team by a significant margin. United have been trying to build a team for years and years now with a primary criteria of being young. So to call any of them "kids" is ridiculous.

By definition, once you're 18, you're an adult. No longer a kid. So not only do we have to cut out the "old boys" mentality, we have to take the "kids" mentality out back and curb stomp that too.

Matthijs de Ligt proves the old adage: if you're good enough, you're old enough.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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:lol:

Nobody's even saying that managers shouldn't be allowed to shout at players and you absolutely have to keep the players happy just like you should seek to keep the coaches, trainers, groundskeepers and other staff happy.

This reductive old-school nonsense has to stop. Why is it that people are so hard-up for some sort of autocratic regime where the manager rules absolutely with an iron fist?
Not sure why. Maybe because we are not performing and they think that will help. Although Mourinho is that iron fist manager and it didn't work out that well.

Of course the players need to follow the managers instructions, but you need good communication with the players. Train in patterns of play and work on collective methods both in defending and attacking. Doing that in a calm and educational way is probably better than being overly dominant and agressive. If players are lazy and do not listen to the coaches/manager then you need to tell them straight no doubt, but going over the top is probably not helping very much.
 

SirFergie

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Unfortunately, Ole has so far shown that he’s only really of any use as a cheerleader. No player at this level is going to take the former manager of Cardiff and Molde seriously when things are going wrong and he’s shouting at them.
Just like they took the former managers of Barcelona and Real Madrid seriously?
 

charlenefan

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Anyone hear this cnut before the game try and downplay Rashford's achievements?

'Everyone is talking about Rashford and what's he's done but Trents been doing charity work not just over the last month but for a while'

Fecking cnut
 

Wayne's World

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Anyone hear this cnut before the game try and downplay Rashford's achievements?

'Everyone is talking about Rashford and what's he's done but Trents been doing charity work not just over the last month but for a while'

Fecking cnut
What do you expect from a scouser? Absolute vile species
 

Murder on Zidane's Floor

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Anyone hear this cnut before the game try and downplay Rashford's achievements?

'Everyone is talking about Rashford and what's he's done but Trents been doing charity work not just over the last month but for a while'

Fecking cnut
Thought the exact same thing.
 

pascell

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Anyone hear this cnut before the game try and downplay Rashford's achievements?

'Everyone is talking about Rashford and what's he's done but Trents been doing charity work not just over the last month but for a while'

Fecking cnut
He needs to think more about re-arranging his bookcases than downplaying the amazing work done by Rashford.

Very small minded that he makes charity work into some form of popularity contest.
 

SteveJ

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From what I've read, even many Liverpool fans struggle to get on board with John's views about a number of things.

His complaints mentioned in the early part of the thread just seem like yet another instance of 'old pro can't understand & doesn't like the behaviour of young pros' (see Souness, Keane et al).
 

devilish

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It's fascinating how former players who lived in the pub club era and had played in a vastly inferior level of football then it is today feel entitled to speak about professionalism as if they were some paragon of virtue. The antics of bad boys such as Balotelli would pale in comparison to what the likes of Gazza and Maradona did back in their hay day.

United's problem is not down to lack of professionalism or determination. The vast majority of our players give their all as said by Ole himself. What we lack is talent.

Think about it. Would the likes of Jones, Rojo, Shaw, JLingz, McT, Fred, James and co be able to win a first team spot in the treble winning squad or the 3rd CL win squad? I can only think of maybe 1 or 2 in our current squad who could make it and I am being very generous here.
 

devilish

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From what I've read, even many Liverpool fans struggle to get on board with John's views about a number of things.

His complaints mentioned in the early part of the thread just seem like yet another instance of 'old pro can't understand & doesn't like the behaviour of young pros' (see Souness, Keane et al).
The irony is that these certain antics which were common back in the day (ie drinking after training, throwing punches at team mates, going AWOL during a WC campaign) would ruin a player's career. Balotelli for example is considered a bad boy and a persona non grata in football and yet he's a boy scout compared to football legends such as Maradona, Gazza and Best. Players had become more professional rather then less professional. They are more aware about what to eat, the need to give their body a proper rest etc. Many employ their personal fitness team who work in tandem with that of the club. I remember the surprise back in the day of people like Giggs and Baggio doing yoga to keep themselves fit. These days such things are the norm.

Can you imagine the likes of Barnes or Robson doing yoga? This is the sort of professionalism they had back in the day

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/liverpool-legend-john-barnes-reveals-13985268


Asked if the verse was recorded in one take as the legend goes, Barnes told planetfootball.com : "I was p*****!

"How does anyone know, we were all drunk and just did it. It’s not a hard thing to do, is it?
 

Jaqen H'ghar

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The irony is that these certain antics which were common back in the day (ie drinking after training, throwing punches at team mates, going AWOL during a WC campaign) would ruin a player's career. Balotelli for example is considered a bad boy and a persona non grata in football and yet he's a boy scout compared to football legends such as Maradona, Gazza and Best. Players had become more professional rather then less professional. They are more aware about what to eat, the need to give their body a proper rest etc. Many employ their personal fitness team who work in tandem with that of the club. I remember the surprise back in the day of people like Giggs and Baggio doing yoga to keep themselves fit. These days such things are the norm.

Can you imagine the likes of Barnes or Robson doing yoga? This is the sort of professionalism they had back in the day

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/liverpool-legend-john-barnes-reveals-13985268


Asked if the verse was recorded in one take as the legend goes, Barnes told planetfootball.com : "I was p*****!

"How does anyone know, we were all drunk and just did it. It’s not a hard thing to do, is it?
Not sure I follow this logic. There was a joke about three guys attacked by a bear, two decide to take a stand, while the last one opts to run.
"You can't outrun a bear" they tell him.
"I don't need to, I just need to outrun you", he replies.

The level of football then and now doesn't make much difference, as what players then and now need to do is be at a better level than the majority of other players in the league. They need to work harder, smarter and have better attitudes than players now not in the past.

If a player has issues, but is still delivering it will most likely be overlooked. If the perfect professional is not delivering on the pitch, chances are they'll be shown the door.

Maradona did what he did, but it was forgiven because he was the best in the world. Ballotelli was not because it affected his quality.

What Barnes is saying make sense, a manager should be allowed to 'manage' his players. I don't see how that's even controversial.
 

devilish

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Not sure I follow this logic. There was a joke about three guys attacked by a bear, two decide to take a stand, while the last one opts to run.
"You can't outrun a bear" they tell him.
"I don't need to, I just need to outrun you", he replies.

The level of football then and now doesn't make much difference, as what players then and now need to do is be at a better level than the majority of other players in the league. They need to work harder, smarter and have better attitudes than players now not in the past.

If a player has issues, but is still delivering it will most likely be overlooked. If the perfect professional is not delivering on the pitch, chances are they'll be shown the door.

Maradona did what he did, but it was forgiven because he was the best in the world. Ballotelli was not because it affected his quality.

What Barnes is saying make sense, a manager should be allowed to 'manage' his players. I don't see how that's even controversial.
Oh but it wasn't forgiven. In fact Napoli kicked Maradona out of Italy just as Gazza was kicked out of Lazio and that after he barely made any money there due to fines. There were standards in terms of professionalism back in the day as well and many British players in that generation broke them. From Rush who refused to learn Italian while playing in Italy right to blatant use of alcohol who used to shock any non British football journalist commentating on England games during World cups.

So having people like Barnes discussing professionalism when their generation used to turn drunk and out of form almost anywhere they went does stink of hypocrisy. These days players are far more professional then players back in the day.
 

Sky1981

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I wish people would take the gist of what barness said and not resorting to extreme situations to justify a debate.

In general the manager needs to be the center of the team. Everything needs to be according to him. Players needs to make him happy not otherway around.

You cant point to outliers such as jose and says it doesnt work. Nor can you point to di mateo and says it doesnt work.

Managers needs authority sometimes not because he's the smartest on the block or the most successful but because he's the head man appointed as the motherboard. You cant create anything if your players doesnt cooperate with you.

Even moyes could do better if the players give him a fair chance instead of trying to kick him at every opportunity. Although probably his better is still not good enough.

And ronaldo, cantona being given leeway by fergie is another anomaly. When you perform at their level they have earnt the right for some leeway.
 

dal

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Managers will ultimately manage differently and we never really know what goes on behind closed doors, I mean look at Ranieri, he seems like he’d get walked all over but he won the league.

Regardless of our quality it is evident Ole’s team plays for him however our manager won’t be judged by how much control he has, it will be judged by the trophy cabinet.

Ferguson needed to change the entire culture at the club. Solskjaer will need to do that to whilst also Influencing those above him.

Also for the person who referred to Ole as an ex “Molde and Cardiff” manager not being respected. Who did Pep manage before Barca? Who did Zidane manage before Real? They were club legends who entered a terrific ecosystem as a manager.

Ole will get one more year regardless I feel. Let’s see where we are after 2020/2021
 

Globule

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Oh but it wasn't forgiven. In fact Napoli kicked Maradona out of Italy just as Gazza was kicked out of Lazio and that after he barely made any money there due to fines. There were standards in terms of professionalism back in the day as well and many British players in that generation broke them. From Rush who refused to learn Italian while playing in Italy right to blatant use of alcohol who used to shock any non British football journalist commentating on England games during World cups.

So having people like Barnes discussing professionalism when their generation used to turn drunk and out of form almost anywhere they went does stink of hypocrisy. These days players are far more professional then players back in the day.
This. Can you imagine if this lockdown had happened in the 80s. The restart would probably look like a game of zorb football.
 

flappyjay

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This. Can you imagine if this lockdown had happened in the 80s. The restart would probably look like a game of zorb football.
Without social media and constant information overload what we know today is probably just the tip of this iceberg.
 

Jaqen H'ghar

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Oh but it wasn't forgiven. In fact Napoli kicked Maradona out of Italy just as Gazza was kicked out of Lazio and that after he barely made any money there due to fines. There were standards in terms of professionalism back in the day as well and many British players in that generation broke them. From Rush who refused to learn Italian while playing in Italy right to blatant use of alcohol who used to shock any non British football journalist commentating on England games during World cups.

So having people like Barnes discussing professionalism when their generation used to turn drunk and out of form almost anywhere they went does stink of hypocrisy. These days players are far more professional then players back in the day.
I'm not defending bad behavior by players, ex or current. Behaviors that are frowned upon are frowned upon for a reason, that they affect a players, and by extension the team's performance.

Old school players were less professional in some ways, more professional in others compared to today's players. But that's an argument for another day.

I have no idea what Barnes was like as a professional, or what his motives are for what he said, but he is right in his assessment.
 

Denis' cuff

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Agree with most of those points but if it isn’t in a manager’s nature to bawl out players, he can still be ruthless in other ways. Also, coaches can do a bit of shouting, although ours don’t appear to be shouters, either.
 

flappyjay

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Agree with most of those points but if it isn’t in a manager’s nature to bawl out players, he can still be ruthless in other ways. Also, coaches can do a bit of shouting, although ours don’t appear to be shouters, either.
Ole has shown that streak in himself. Shouting at lingard from the sideline and is also ruthless in removing players that he feels are bad seeds.
 

fps

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Managers will ultimately manage differently and we never really know what goes on behind closed doors, I mean look at Ranieri, he seems like he’d get walked all over but he won the league.
Yes, managers are very like teachers, in many ways. The one who has to constantly shout and scream doesn't necessarily have more control than the one who is very quiet, usually less in fact, and that kind of approach wears off very quickly. It can be small things too. Mourinho in his younger days had good looks and charisma which seems to have gone by the way side, so players seem less interested in responding to his approach. Ranieri became peak Ranieri when he became slightly older and more uncle-y, which perhaps gave him a little more gravitas. Veeery pop-psychology I know, but fun, given this is a forum for random football ideas. Ultimately, what a manager needs is respect, and that comes from players buying into a project and seeing the steps to progress and success at each step.

I agree with Barnes though, for a time there United seemed like Liverpool in the 90s, players with a flashy club and massive contracts who were dossing around and using the place as a playground.
 

devilish

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I'm not defending bad behavior by players, ex or current. Behaviors that are frowned upon are frowned upon for a reason, that they affect a players, and by extension the team's performance.

Old school players were less professional in some ways, more professional in others compared to today's players. But that's an argument for another day.

I have no idea what Barnes was like as a professional, or what his motives are for what he said, but he is right in his assessment.
Let me share a personal story with you The team at my local town plays at 1st division level. However they have one of the finest youth academy in the country. That's down to the dedicated people at the club + also its down to the town was fairly young which meant that there were many kids running around at the time. Anyway back in my time, many kids would sign with the local club and do very well. Unfortunately due to budget issues the local club lacked an U18-21 squad. That meant that by the time you hit 18-19 you are either good enough for the first team or else you're basically fecked. The team won't play you, the club won't release you and any club interested in your services would have to pay good money to sign you. Contracts would run down and yet you're still owned by the club. I've seen dozens of very valid 18-19 year olds who were forced to retire from football because of that. That's pre Bosman ruling for you.

The pre Bosman ruling meant that players were literally owned by the club. The club could basically ruin your career if they want you and they would get away with it. Jean-Marc Bosman situation was pretty identical to what my mates faced back in the day. His contract with his previous club had expired, he wanted to play for a French club and yet his previous club didn't want to release him. Hence you had a situation were managers couldn't be bothered man manage simply because they were Gods who could make the player's life a living hell. The things these players faced borders to the ridiculous. Roy Keane (you know our former captain whose tough as nails) got punched in the face by Brian Clough for having the temerity of asking for a transfer. In normal circumstances good old Keano would have probably broke every single bone of that drunken has been. Unfortunately we're talking about pre Bosman times here. All Keano had to do is clean himself out and leave the office while hoping that this wouldn't ruin his life.

Footballers today are way more professional then the players back in the day. Its rare to have players coming to pre season out of form let alone coming to the training ground with a hang over. However they have more rights then players to do and are intelligent enough to protect themselves. Most players have agents. The new generation aren't afraid of leaving the country if that mean improving their career. I applaud the likes of Jadon Sancho & Rabbi Matondo and co for the courage to spread their wing and move elsewhere when it was evident that their career was going nowhere in England. Can the modern player be petty? Of course they can especially since we're talking about 18-27 year olds here with loads of money, so much popularity and so much time on their hands. However I'd rather have players acting like JLingz who make a fool of himself then players drinking their careers away or punching one another as if they are in a boxing ring.
 

Sylar

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Anyone hear this cnut before the game try and downplay Rashford's achievements?

'Everyone is talking about Rashford and what's he's done but Trents been doing charity work not just over the last month but for a while'

Fecking cnut
Liverpool really see everything as an attack on them right?
Rashford is praised, but liverpool ex players / fans have to dismiss it and turn it to Trent.
Pogba does a wicked pass for Rashford against Spurs, Pool fans have to be offended and say that Trent does it 3 times in a match.

And lets not even go into how everybody is now a solicitor on twitter with the whole Keita thing going on.
 

OverratedOpinion

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I think with us for example, players didn't lost faith in Jose because he slagged them off occasionally. I think the players lost faith in him because it became clear that his system was less effective than the way Klopp or Pep set their teams up and we ultimately were not going to challenge for a league title under him.

I don't think players are quite as tough or single minded as they used to be but I don't think they are exactly the soft wallflowers they are made out to be either.
 

treble_winner

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Good interview.

Basically,
  • United players need to have better attitude.
  • They have to perform all the time (not just when everything going well and Mourinho is gone).
  • The manager has to be allowed to shout at you.
  • Cub and fans need to give the manager power to take every decision and keep the focus off players.
  • They (Pep and Klopp) are powerful managers.
  • They don’t have to keep the players happy – the players have to keep them happy.
  • If Club's first priority is to keep players happy = recipe for disaster.
  • Ole should be allowed to shout at players.
  • Stop blaming manager and put more pressures on players = consistency which Liv and City showed.
https://www.thesportreview.com/2019/05/man-united-news-john-barnes-solskjaer/

Maybe few bias here and there, but generally that's very fair and have strong points.
I agree entirely about players need to take their own responsibility. In the end, they are the ones directly performing on the football field. Managers can only help them so much if they have the proper mindset.

It might be a little bias from my side, but I feel it's out-of-order when many United fans on here slaughter Neville or Roy Keane or Scholes whenever they criticize a Manchester United player. After 7 years with 4 managers after Sir Alex's retirement, isn't it about time our own players need to step up and take responsibility rather than hiding behind the manager?

The Sanchez debacle derailed the dressing room and people rightly criticized Jose/Woodward for it. But stop for a second... Since when does a new arrival with higher salary become the excuse for players to have their performance dipped? That's why in real work place we don't let (or in some cases forbid) employees to know of each other's salary. If the players are not happy with Sanchez having higher wage than them, why not prove it on the field and get a fat, improved contract themselves? Why let their performance dipped just because they are "unhappy"? If they are not "happy" playing for Manchester United, they have no business staying here living as millionaires from the fans's money.

And yes, Ole should be allowed to "shout". He is the boss of a football team, not the teacher in a kindergarten class. When the players under-perform, it's up to the managers to "shout" and give them a proper kick.
 
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