Johnny Giles greatest United XI.

[montpelier]

That's an interesting statement given that Keane was all all action up and down midfielder in his early days at united and by his own admission started to come deeper and get more involved in the play on the advice of Robson.

That wouldn't really happen until a bit later though would it?

I remember Ince/Keane and Butt/Keane as more straightforward MF pairs for me.

It also starts me wondering if the year out was a factor in changing where and how he played slightly.

And SAF changed tactics a bit late ish 90s because of how the European thing kept going wrong - Dortmumd, Leverkusen semis we probably ought not of lost.

Mutual evolution of the style of play?

 

[montpelier]

Some say Ince got sold because he couldn't be trusted to know when he should sit in. And there was Butt coming through.

 

[lex talionis]

My only serious quarrel is the omission of Robson. In another thread I argued that Keane was a greater captain than Robson. But there can't be any serious doubt that Robson was the greater footballer.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

The reason why so many think that is because its was very much debatable. Two things which can't be denied is 1) Rio only took his game to the next level when Vidic arrived and 2) Vidic was just as good with or without Rio.

In our record breaking clean sheet run in 08/09, Vidic was the only one in the back four who played all 13 games. He played alongside a rookie Evans 6 times and with Rio 7 times.

Vidic had two PFA POTY worthy seasons. Was robbed by Giggs in 08/09 and Bale in 10/11. I prefer Rio but think Vidic edges it tbh.

Rio made every defender he had next to him look better, Rio won titles and performed great before Vidic arrived. As soon as Rio's performances dipped due to decline/age towards the end of his stint with us, Vidic's performances also started to drop due to Rio not being at his previous level.

 

[El Jefe]

Rio made every defender he had next to him look better, Rio won titles and performed great before Vidic arrived. As soon as Rio's performances dipped due to decline/age towards the end of his stint with us, Vidic's performances also started to drop due to Rio not being at his previous level.

Actually Rio only won 1 major honour with us before Vidic's arrival. Vidic's decline had nothing to do with Rio but everything to do with his constant injury problems.

It's fine if you think Rio is better than Vidic but there's no way of supporting your claim that he was far superior to Vidic. There was hardly much in it.

 

[POF]

Rio made every defender he had next to him look better, Rio won titles and performed great before Vidic arrived. As soon as Rio's performances dipped due to decline/age towards the end of his stint with us, Vidic's performances also started to drop due to Rio not being at his previous level.

Absolute nonsense. Just look at Jonny Evans. He looked a top prospect next to Vidic and a liability when he played next to Rio.

Rio was seen as a colossal waste of money before Vidic arrived. He and Wes, the corn row twins, were a laughing stock. He and Silvestre were a shambles.

It honestly staggers me how people watched United through that era and think Rio was a better defender. He might have been better suited to big European games (on TV more often?) where it was less physical and the enormity of the game kept him concentrated but domestically, he lacked concentration, made lots of errors and was regularly dominated physically by top target men.

Watching the team through that era should have been enough, but if you prefer stats:

Jaap Stam left United in 2001. United won 1 title in the 5 years that followed. Vidic joined in January 2006.
United then won 4 out of the next 5 titles, lost the next one when Vidic missed almost the whole season after getting injured and won again the following season when he regained fitness.

I remember when he got injured in Basel, the feeling was that the season was over. Fergie did an amazing job getting the team so close but that team was built off the defence, which was completely reliant on Vidic.

When he played, you wouldn't be worried in the slightest when the opposition were on the attack. When he didn't play, it was panic stations any time a high ball came into the box. He was an incredible defender. Along with Stam, the best I've seen at United.

 

[Champagne Football]

Some say Ince got sold because he couldn't be trusted to know when he should sit in. And there was Butt coming through.

Butt was good at sitting

 

[Eleven-Eighteen]

Law over Cantona?

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Actually Rio only won 1 major honour with us before Vidic's arrival. Vidic's decline had nothing to do with Rio but everything to do with his constant injury problems.

It's fine if you think Rio is better than Vidic but there's no way of supporting your claim that he was far superior to Vidic. There was hardly much in it.

Actually Rio won 3. The PL, FA cup and League Cup.

Absolute nonsense. Just look at Jonny Evans. He looked a top prospect next to Vidic and a liability when he played next to Rleio.

Rio was seen as a colossal waste of money before Vidic arrived. He and Wes, the corn row twins, were a laughing stock. He and Silvestre were a shambles.

It honestly staggers me how people watched United through that era and think Rio was a better defender. He might have been better suited to big European games (on TV more often?) where it was less physical and the enormity of the game kept him concentrated but domestically, he lacked concentration, made lots of errors and was regularly dominated physically by top target men.

Watching the team through that era should have been enough, but if you prefer stats:

Jaap Stam left United in 2001. United won 1 title in the 5 years that followed. Vidic joined in January 2006.
United then won 4 out of the next 5 titles, lost the next one when Vidic missed almost the whole season after getting injured and won again the following season when he regained fitness.

I remember when he got injured in Basel, the feeling was that the season was over. Fergie did an amazing job getting the team so close but that team was built off the defence, which was completely reliant on Vidic.

When he played, you wouldn't be worried in the slightest when the opposition were on the attack. When he didn't play, it was panic stations any time a high ball came into the box. He was an incredible defender. Along with Stam, the best I've seen at United.

Rio was never seen as a waste of money, it was just the fact that he was the most expensive CB in PL history at the time and people were expecting prime Baresi levels for that sort of money back then.

You mention the fact that from 2001 - 2006 United only won 1 PL title, but you fail to mention the following; The squad for the most part of that period had players such as Djemba Djemba, Fortune, Richardson, Miller, Kleberson, Bellion, and a lot of other young players that weren't ready such as Fletcher, Pique, Rossi, Spector, Eagles, ageing Solskjaer, ageing Keane etc.

When Vidic arrived the squad was in much better condition with Rooney and Ronaldo hitting their Prime, Fletcher stepping up, he also had Evra next to him and Carrick in the middle. The fact is the squad didn't improve and win titles just because of Vidic, the squad improved due to SAF getting rid of a lot of average players and bringing in some really good players, who happened to hit their best United form in 2006/2007 i.e Evra, Fletcher, Rooney and Ronaldo.

Everyone knows United didn't have that great of a squad from 2002 - 2005, compared to the squad after that.

 

[2cents]

Rio’s absence during the bulk of 03/04 was a major reason we couldn’t mount a credible title-defence that season. Obviously this is not an argument in his favor since it was largely his own fault. But still says something about his quality.

 

[El Jefe]

Actually Rio won 3. The PL, FA cup and League Cup.

Rio didn't win the FA Cup, his banned had kicked in before it started and Vidic also won the league cup in 2005/06.

Rio won 1 trophy before Vidic's arrival, unless you want to include the Community Shield to that.

 

[Denis' cuff]

Opinions will always vary but it’s hard to argue with that selection. Prefer Robbo to Keane but little in it. Dunne was the best defensive fb for me and good on the overlap, although tended to balloon crosses over.

Shame Busby sold Giles. The glue that held Leeds together. Fabulous footballer, with a poise and control. I’ve only seen In Beckenbauer. Baffled why Busby insisted on sticking Giles out on the rw instead of his real position. Far better player than Quixall, who played in his position before being replaced himself not long after. Not sure Busby ever admitted his mistake but most of us knew he dropped one there.Giles was pretty strong willed possibly disruptive and maybe Busby saw this as a fault. Can’t see any other reason.

 

[P-Nut]

Watching a few of our 90s games back over the last few days has elevated Keane in my mind even more than before. In pretty much every big performance we had Keane was front and centre best player on the park.

I actually think it's hard to argue against him being our best player of the Premier league era, sure Ronaldo hit a higher peak, but the longevity of Keane combined with how fecking great he was edges it for me.

 

[Buster15]

Watching a few of our 90s games back over the last few days has elevated Keane in my mind even more than before. In pretty much every big performance we had Keane was front and centre best player on the park.

I actually think it's hard to argue against him being our best player of the Premier league era, sure Ronaldo hit a higher peak, but the longevity of Keane combined with how fecking great he was edges it for me.

Agree with all of that.
Yes Ronaldo was absolutely brilliant for United and is rightly rated as the worlds best.

But. In Roy Keane, we had a player who was as close to the complete package as I have ever seen.

Apart from his around football abilities, he always put in a massive amount of work and rarely stopped moving.

But the real key was his leadership and drive.
To me, he personified what a real Manchester United player should be.
Skillful, courageous and never say die attitude.

One of the very very special players.

 

[Buster15]

Opinions will always vary but it’s hard to argue with that selection. Prefer Robbo to Keane but little in it. Dunne was the best defensive fb for me and good on the overlap, although tended to balloon crosses over.

Shame Busby sold Giles. The glue that held Leeds together. Fabulous footballer, with a poise and control. I’ve only seen In Beckenbauer. Baffled why Busby insisted on sticking Giles out on the rw instead of his real position. Far better player than Quixall, who played in his position before being replaced himself not long after. Not sure Busby ever admitted his mistake but most of us knew he dropped one there.Giles was pretty strong willed possibly disruptive and maybe Busby saw this as a fault. Can’t see any other reason.

Well said.

 

[Denis' cuff]

Just occurred to me - it is often overlooked that Giles was by no means an instant hit at Leeds. Bobby Collins was the incumbent mf maestro that Giles eventually became a good few years after. Collins was another hard as nails midget , who had all the time in the world on the ball. Brilliant player, about 5’3” from memory.

 

[The Brown Bull]

Watching a few of our 90s games back over the last few days has elevated Keane in my mind even more than before. In pretty much every big performance we had Keane was front and centre best player on the park.

I actually think it's hard to argue against him being our best player of the Premier league era, sure Ronaldo hit a higher peak, but the longevity of Keane combined with how fecking great he was edges it for me.

Agreed.A sports journalist who covered United once said Keane was the only player at the club who would do the job required in any position on the field.

 

[Fitchett]

Just occurred to me - it is often overlooked that Giles was by no means an instant hit at Leeds. Bobby Collins was the incumbent mf maestro that Giles eventually became a good few years after. Collins was another hard as nails midget , who had all the time in the world on the ball. Brilliant player, about 5’3” from memory.

It was when Collins broke his leg that Giles replaced him as Leeds' midfield general, with great success.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Probably a tiny bit of Irish bias in that team. I think Evra would get the nod over Dunne.

Then no complaints about Best in the team, but it's a very close call up against Giggs.

Best was a far superior player to Giggs.

The only reason Giggs would sniff our greatest eleven is longevity. If we’re talking talent he’s not even top 25.

Love Giggsy so no disrespect, he was a terrific player, but we’ve had several all time greats at the club.

 

[Denis' cuff]

Law over Cantona?

erm... The King - and a European Footballer of the Year. Doesn’t count because it’s pre-premier league?

phenomenal player.

 

[Eleven-Eighteen]

erm... The King - and a European Footballer of the Year. Doesn’t count because it’s pre-premier league?

phenomenal player.

Well i haven't seen Law play. And Cantona was just so so immense for us, in sheer quality as well as impact on the club. Hence the surprise. If Dennis Law makes it over Cantona he must be one of the best forwards in the history of the game

 

[Member 113277]

He was.

 

[Pav1878]

Van Der Sar

Ferdinand Stam Vidic
Beckham Scholes Keane Evra
Ronaldo Charlton Best​

I know, Beckham as a wing back, no Giggs, no Irwin, no Law and many more but I think that xi would be very difficult to beat and has everything. And it has three of our iconic number 7s

Not sure about CF though, could argue Rooney for his record goals, Cantona for his presence but I think Van Nistelrooy would be great in that team too.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I really like Giles as a pundit. No nonsense, super honest and doesn't get taken in by media hysteria.

Focuses on a player's quality rather than hype and has his own strong opinions on how football should be played.

Very good team. It's hard to argue with a single player. He would have loved Scholes as a player as he had a similar style to Giles himself, although not as dirty.

Good call. From a 2010 interview with Giles:

He was 25 before he came in from the flanks to claim the central midfield role he had coveted since watching Johnny Haynes redefine the job of inside-forward for Fulham. Haynes rewrote the rules on positional discipline by roving around the pitch to dictate the play. Asked if there is a Haynes or John Giles out there today, Giles says: "Only one. Paul Scholes."

 

[Tel074]

Probably a tiny bit of Irish bias in that team. I think Evra would get the nod over Dunne.

Then no complaints about Best in the team, but it's a very close call up against Giggs.

Nah mate from what my dad and uncle told me over the years Dunne was top class so I'm not surprised he choose him .

 

[Champagne Football]

Best was a far superior player to Giggs.

The only reason Giggs would sniff our greatest eleven is longevity. If we’re talking talent he’s not even top 25.

Love Giggsy so no disrespect, he was a terrific player, but we’ve had several all time greats at the club.

Ronaldo, Law, Charlton, Robson, Keane, Scholes, Cantona, Best..... That's the only 8 players I can think of who you can say were arguable ahead of Giggs in the history of Man Utd.
I'm not sure where you're getting 25 Man Utd players ahead of him from.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Ronaldo, Law, Charlton, Robson, Keane, Scholes, Cantona, Best..... That's the only 8 players I can think of who you can say were arguable ahead of Giggs in the history of Man Utd.
I'm not sure where you're getting 25 Man Utd players ahead of him from.

I’m talking about talent, not overall contribution. Rooney for example, was a better footballer than Giggs.

 

[Denis' cuff]

Well i haven't seen Law play. And Cantona was just so so immense for us, in sheer quality as well as impact on the club. Hence the surprise. If Dennis Law makes it over Cantona he must be one of the best forwards in the history of the game

Eric was incredible for us, tbf but reminds me a bit of Geoff Hurst, in that, his timing was fortunate. Take nothing away from either player but Denis was an absolute great, and would’ve been, wherever and whenever he played. Eric and and Geoff were ordinary until their time, circumstances and opportunity came along, relatively late in their careers. Denis was a great from the word go, hence the rare incidence, in the day of a foreign, wealthy Italian club willing to pay a then, astonishing fee for him as a 21 year old. A teen sensation and his impact never waned until his knee problems cut his greatness short Just as he should’ve hit his peak.
Unbelievable, that people are amazed that giants of the game, such as Denis, THE King, was actually right up in the top 5 best post-war United players. He doesn’t have a statue for nothing, mate. Eric was immense, but was mollycoddled by Fergie into producing his magic for a limited time. Loved the man but you really need some perspective and indeed, some appreciation of life before SKY. Still have my Eric poster ”1966 was a special year .... “ but Denis was a step above. Charismatic, and often played to the crowd, like Eric but his impact seems to have diminished when lesser mortals, over the years, seem to have had their reality enhanced by a cliche-obsessed media.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

It shouldn't be Rio or Vidic, it should be Rio and Vidic. One of the best CB partnerships of all time anywhere and as good as Stam was, they're the perfect partnership for style and Stam wasn't there long enough (3 seasons of excellence vs 5 or 6 seasons).

I'd also argue that Ronaldo isn't a lock, he was amazing sure but his reputation was inflated to an all-time great after United rather than at United. He won the Ballon d'Or here but if his career went the way of Kaka afterwards then we might be looking at it differently. Is Kaka a lock for the Milan all-time side? Not sure.

For me, Best is the first name on the team sheet on the wing, he's not competing with Giggs. Despite the talk of Best being washed up early, if you're only judging United careers then Best did it for longer than Ronaldo. Ronaldo was inconsistent in his first few years and then gone at 24. Best was better at 19 for United than Ronaldo was, then was third in the Ballon d'Or in 1971 playing for United when he was 25.

Ronaldo is competing then with Giggs and I think Giggs has a legitimate argument with 960 games for a club and 13 titles, this wasn't a mid-table team he was doing it for, his whole career was at the top of the game and all at one club. Seems wrong for me to leave him out of the greatest XI.

 

[Josh 76]

It shouldn't be Rio or Vidic, it should be Rio and Vidic. One of the best CB partnerships of all time anywhere and as good as Stam was, they're the perfect partnership for style and Stam wasn't there long enough (3 seasons of excellence vs 5 or 6 seasons).

I'd also argue that Ronaldo isn't a lock, he was amazing sure but his reputation was inflated to an all-time great after United rather than at United. He won the Ballon d'Or here but if his career went the way of Kaka afterwards then we might be looking at it differently. Is Kaka a lock for the Milan all-time side? Not sure.

For me, Best is the first name on the team sheet on the wing, he's not competing with Giggs. Despite the talk of Best being washed up early, if you're only judging United careers then Best did it for longer than Ronaldo. Ronaldo was inconsistent in his first few years and then gone at 24. Best was better at 19 for United than Ronaldo was, then was third in the Ballon d'Or in 1971 playing for United when he was 25.

Ronaldo is competing then with Giggs and I think Giggs has a legitimate argument with 960 games for a club and 13 titles, this wasn't a mid-table team he was doing it for, his whole career was at the top of the game and all at one club. Seems wrong for me to leave him out of the greatest XI.

There is an argument to have that Best and Ronaldo achieved the same success at UTD. Best did it at the age of 19-22. Ronaldo did it at the age of 21-24.

 

[The Brown Bull]

Eric was incredible for us, tbf but reminds me a bit of Geoff Hurst, in that, his timing was fortunate. Take nothing away from either player but Denis was an absolute great, and would’ve been, wherever and whenever he played. Eric and and Geoff were ordinary until their time, circumstances and opportunity came along, relatively late in their careers. Denis was a great from the word go, hence the rare incidence, in the day of a foreign, wealthy Italian club willing to pay a then, astonishing fee for him as a 21 year old. A teen sensation and his impact never waned until his knee problems cut his greatness short Just as he should’ve hit his peak.
Unbelievable, that people are amazed that giants of the game, such as Denis, THE King, was actually right up in the top 5 best post-war United players. He doesn’t have a statue for nothing, mate. Eric was immense, but was mollycoddled by Fergie into producing his magic for a limited time. Loved the man but you really need some perspective and indeed, some appreciation of life before SKY. Still have my Eric poster ”1966 was a special year .... “ but Denis was a step above. Charismatic, and often played to the crowd, like Eric but his impact seems to have diminished when lesser mortals, over the years, seem to have had their reality enhanced by a cliche-obsessed media.

Agreed.Denis Law was a superstar.

 

[The Brown Bull]

Best was a far superior player to Giggs.

The only reason Giggs would sniff our greatest eleven is longevity. If we’re talking talent he’s not even top 25.

Love Giggsy so no disrespect, he was a terrific player, but we’ve had several all time greats at the club.

Nails it.At his best George was unplayable, arguably the best in the world.Giggs was an excellent player but never at that exalted level.

 

[Buster15]

Well i haven't seen Law play. And Cantona was just so so immense for us, in sheer quality as well as impact on the club. Hence the surprise. If Dennis Law makes it over Cantona he must be one of the best forwards in the history of the game

In his day, he was. Quite a small frame but had a terrific leap and scored loads of headers.

Hardly ever gave the ball away and very quick in the box. Perfect strikers brain.

Was he as good as Cantona.
No. But he was extra special.

 

[Buster15]

Nails it.At his best George was unplayable, arguably the best in the world.Giggs was an excellent player but never at that exalted level.

On his day, Giggs was unplayable.
But not as naturally talented as Best.

But you have to take Giggs career into account and he stands comparison with the very best.