Film Joker (2019)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Just seen it and thought it was brilliant. My friend didn't like it and had no idea at all who any of the Batman related characters were, which didn't help.
I fecked up and accidentally insinuated that a stupid person might have trouble noticing some of the "acts" Joker may have actually commited throughout the movie because the director didn't exactly slap us in the face with certain stuff and kind of just alluded to things, if you seen the movie you probably know what I mean.
A stupid person probably wouldn't be totally thrilled about the slow but necessary speed the movie chose to take either to detail the transformation of his character.
She's really mad at me. I'm a pompous dick, I feel bad
I fecked up and accidentally insinuated that a stupid person might have trouble noticing some of the "acts" Joker may have actually commited throughout the movie because the director didn't exactly slap us in the face with certain stuff and kind of just alluded to things, if you seen the movie you probably know what I mean.
A stupid person probably wouldn't be totally thrilled about the slow but necessary speed the movie chose to take either to detail the transformation of his character.
She's really mad at me. I'm a pompous dick, I feel bad
Taking Phoenix out of it, it’s an average film
But you can say that about a lot of films/shows though
I thought it was a very good film - kept me entertained the whole time. I genuinely don't know what people expected. It's an origin story of the arguably the most well known villain so it's hardly going to be sunshine and roses. If it was too complex then people would have complained.
I do agree that it was obvious where each scene was going but that's fine for me as long as it's done well. I don't need 100 reasons that only a detailed therapist can uncover for why Albert became the Joker. His life was a tragedy from the get go and felt the world owed him.
They made you feel sorry for him but not support him at the end. He was a product of his environment - his abusive past and feeling of self importance. My only real criticism that stood out was we didn't see many petty criminal acts which would have been nice. It would show him becoming more comfortable in this new him and start showing off the smart/cunning he is known for. All his acts in the film generally felt impulsive except the Murray killing.
The uncontrolled laughter I thought was really well done as you could see him desperately trying to stop or hear it through the choking. When his mum was shown in the hospital when younger and being told about the abuse, her saying "he was such a happy child" or something was great.
I liked how noticeable it was that the more he accepted his dark/criminal side the less uncontrolled laughter there was as he felt in control of everything for once. So again, a lot more petty crimes would have been nice to see.
The incel stuff that was hyped about in the past, what the hell? Other than the obvious 'him imagining them together' bit, he was hardly scratching at the door begging her to take him. Ridiculous overreaction from the media on all counts.
I do agree that it was obvious where each scene was going but that's fine for me as long as it's done well. I don't need 100 reasons that only a detailed therapist can uncover for why Albert became the Joker. His life was a tragedy from the get go and felt the world owed him.
They made you feel sorry for him but not support him at the end. He was a product of his environment - his abusive past and feeling of self importance. My only real criticism that stood out was we didn't see many petty criminal acts which would have been nice. It would show him becoming more comfortable in this new him and start showing off the smart/cunning he is known for. All his acts in the film generally felt impulsive except the Murray killing.
The uncontrolled laughter I thought was really well done as you could see him desperately trying to stop or hear it through the choking. When his mum was shown in the hospital when younger and being told about the abuse, her saying "he was such a happy child" or something was great.
I liked how noticeable it was that the more he accepted his dark/criminal side the less uncontrolled laughter there was as he felt in control of everything for once. So again, a lot more petty crimes would have been nice to see.
The incel stuff that was hyped about in the past, what the hell? Other than the obvious 'him imagining them together' bit, he was hardly scratching at the door begging her to take him. Ridiculous overreaction from the media on all counts.
By that I mean, if Phoenix doesn't pull off that performance, the glaring flaws with the film get exposed. Yes it happens in alot of films, but i've not quite seen it to this level. Normally there's a healthy balance between them all.
Out of interest, what flaws do you consider there were?
I'm not saying there weren't, but I didn't think there were any major ones that put my nose out of joint slightly. It did just about enough to make me believe it we got a fair reflection of what made Albert become Joker.
Also should note, I am biased. I hate superhero stuff and Batman is the only one I've ever liked as a kid. Not cos of Batman, feck him, but the villains in the comic/cartoons were always the best. Naturally therefore, Joker was/is the only reason I watched any superhero content. I didn't watch Suicide Squad as that looked shocking and knew I'd be pissed off
I think;
Pace;
Character interaction (although this could be deemed part of the disjointedness between joker and normal people);
The clown organisation was never embellished (it was just there in the background with little to no interaction);
Dialogue and overall performance of the mother in comparison to joker;
Few others but I'd have to go back and watch it again.
There's the base there for a great film but it just didn't go to that next level.
Felt the same.
The Good:
- Phoenix
- Audio and visual
The Bad:
- Too many needlessly extended scenes of the Joker like the scene after the subway kills in the washroom.
- No portrayal of the criminal genius within? Joker is supposed to be an criminal mastermind who is extremely sharp & calculated despite the unpredictability ala Heath Ledger. Based on this movie, besides the impulsive violent kills, it's hard to envision the transformed Arthur Fleck to be capable of masterminding, organizing and leading chaos and carnage.
Also, the last scene (asylum) was unnecessary. Either they should ended the movie with bloody smile scene (best moment in tbe movie) or a sinister "Why so serious" line to the counseller would have been fitting!
After the initial brilliant review, surprised to see so many negative ones. From reknown reviewers and publications too. Views seem to oscillate between masterpiece and mediocre.
Apart from phoenix acting it's a boring movie
He's scaring a 38 years old silly with his mannerism. For once i believe a supervillain can do real daily average joe harms with his ideology.
I can see someone nuts enough to pull this shit in real life
I enjoyed Phoenix's portrayal. He got it so nailed on at so many places as the Joker. But I felt his portrayal as Arthur Fleck was a little underwhelming.
Also, think if Phoenix had played this role a few years earlier, it would have been incredible.
But story-wise, like many, pointed out, it was ok-ok. Standard Origin stuff.
Also, think if Phoenix had played this role a few years earlier, it would have been incredible.
But story-wise, like many, pointed out, it was ok-ok. Standard Origin stuff.
Again I hope they dont turn this into a trilogy. Use it as a launch pad for a new batman in the same style.
You need to watch The Dark Knight, it’s an incredible film.
I don’t think he is essentially a mastermind. IMO what makes Joker so scary is that he’s very unpredictable and if you saw the video I posted above, joker is a character that keeps on changing. Nolan’s/ Heath Ledger’s Joker was a mastermind but Jack Nicholson’s Joker was more of a trickster. So you can’t say that Joker is supposed to be so and so.
It's a 15 I believe but he's 20 anyway
It’s completely split down the middle it seems.
Sane hate it some love it, I thought it was brilliant.
Sane hate it some love it, I thought it was brilliant.
From what I've seen some love it and some think it was just 'good'
Yeah, the actual reviews so far have generally been positive, with even the more negative reviews describing it as mediocre rather than actively hateable.
The idea that there was hate for it just comes from the pre-release, pearl-clutching hype that was taken up by people who couldn't all have seen the film. Hype that one suspects was very much encouraged by those behind the film. Danger sells well, even danger that doesn't really exist. Not surprising that a lot of the actual reviews then thought it was overhyped and lacking in real depth or danger as everyone had been primed for something more. That's a long way from hating it though.
Phoenix has said himself he was only making this one film.
I am still sticking to my opinion of enjoying it but the more I think about it, the more frustrated I am. They showed absolutely no evidence that Albert/Joker was intelligent. He was completely lucky in all his criminal activities. All they had to do was show his intelligence before he became Joker or show him doing a few smart crimes/scams
I think the one thing that really stood out for me is that the Joker has always been described as Charismatic and nothing I saw from Arthur or “that guy dressed as the joker” was charismatic at all.
A 10/10 for me, phoenix is on par with ledger, although both played on totally different ways. The soundtrack was perfect, casting superb and writing perfect. As an aside did anyone else notice some similarities in some of the mannerisms phoenix used with some the Ones robin lord Taylor uses as penguin?
I'm surprised no one has tried attacking this film for its use of "Rock and Roll part 2"
As if I wrote this out myself. Bang on.
Favourite film I've watched in the cinema for a while. Phoenix will be knocking on that Oscar door.
That's also very true. I was actually thinking, his appearance on TV (forget the killing) would not make me want to follow him in battle even if I agreed.
It could be argued his confidence came after with the riot scene but it would be an insane leap
It's his origin story. They don't need to show his evil genius. They need to show how he became a prominent supervillain.
They still need to show he has a brain and can think/plan properly. Becoming a villain doesn't make you automatically a genius. Nothing he seemed to do in the film suggested he was smart but just not using to his potential which was best served doing crime
It's a bit odd to develop your evil genius after becoming the supervillain, rather than using it to get there in the first place.
But the simplest way to get over this is to acknowledge that this isn't really the DC version of the Joker, it's something inspired by the character but the only real similarities are the clown makeup and penchant for murder.
Just watched it.
Straight out of the hall feelings.
Straight out of the hall feelings.
- First up - absolutely fantastic film. I haven't looked forward to a movie this much in a long time, and it somehow did justice to the hype, and to the ultimate villain that is the Joker.
- Hats off to Todd Philips on handling a difficult topic superbly. The 2 hours absolutely breezed by and I was hooked for all it. It was slow, but in a good kind of way. The transition of Arthur was handled very well.
- The score was one of the best I've heard in a long time.
- Phoenix put on a special acting peformance. The entire film revolved around him and he carried it comfortably. He nailed nearly every scene he was in (which was all of them).
- One thing to add here is that as a Joker, clown prince of Gotham, Health Ledger is still gold standard. Phoenix, and to be fair to him, he mostly played Arthur, was cettiany very good when he portrayed Joker. But Ledger was on a different level. He had charisma, voice (Phoenix voice is not very alluring/daunting) and presence as Joker that Phoenix cannot match. So yeah, of the best acting peformances in a long time but specifically as the joker himself, it's still Ledger who I'll always think of.
Why weren't the metro chase and TV scenes clever from him? He's not a rocket scientist , but that showed the early signs of his criminal masterminded-ness.
Also, I've heard people say that this inspired by Taxi Driver , and while that is clearly evident, this is the better film of the two (ignoring that), easily. Taxi Driver was good but it's such overrated film. This was genuinely excellent and did everything better, for me.
The metro chase could maybe give it as he started a fight and then used it. The TV scene, taking a gun on stage and shooting doesn't require much thinking. He thought more about his performance on it which is fine as that kill was a gimme, literally fell on his lap so planning was minimal.
As I said in my previous posts, I think maybe a couple petty crimes would be good to see. Show him doing things on his own that doesn't require a gun or encouraging people to do things. The riots happened before he realised he could take control of them.
But there still seems to be a debate I guess whether all this actually happened or was in his head. If it was all in his head then I guess a lot of holes can be overlooked
This would be the pre-cursor to Heath Ledger's joker if you were to make any connection between the two. Ledger's is the result of a slow descent into madness that is depicted in this film.
I also love the secondary plot points about how mental health is still looked at in the main.
I feel this is how comic book films should be done, a brilliant watch.
I also love the secondary plot points about how mental health is still looked at in the main.
I feel this is how comic book films should be done, a brilliant watch.
Wasn't that almost the main point? He literally says it when he kills De Niro
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@LARulz I'd spoiler that
Yeah almost, as in, not the main point. Thus, secondary.
Done
To me it was the main point. Only said almost incase I missed something but thought it was all about how society treats people who are mentally ill and unfortunate - the was Wayne talked down about them, the rich banker wankers etc.
His move into being a criminal was because he was given (he felt) no other choice. His meds were cut, was given no support for his health or mum and 'if it was him left dead on the street nobody would look twice'
Gone straight in to my top 5 favourite films