Jordan Henderson: overrated/underrated?

big rons sovereign

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 7, 2015
Messages
2,657
Ahhh I see the usual caf tradition of shitting on an opposing player after one bad match and pretending they were rubbish all along is back. This is a pointless bump.

Henderson while not the greatest CM is someone who knows what it's like playing at a high level and does bring quality despite what people say. Bellingham, Rice, Phillips and JWP are all pretty inexperienced. Henderson has to be included.
Yeah, England will desperately need those 2 yard sideways passes.
 

tomaldinho1

Full Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2015
Messages
7,367
normally I’d agree - but it’s a risk worth taking when you have 26 players. There’s an argument to say it’s better than taking 26 fit players, as you have to leave 3 out of the match day squad completely which could be demoralising…
Yeah that's fair - let's hope we don't find ourselves in a scenario where injuries play a factor. As a United fan I obviously want Maguire to g and then maybe play a part later on if we go far, which is a bit selfish but I guess Pool fans are the same re Henderson.
 

Harry190

Full Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
6,107
Location
Canada
He looks shot. Not sure why he was picked. Don't remember seeing him play for Liverpool during the final games.
 

sincher

"I will cry if Rooney leaves"
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
24,647
Location
YSC
JWP should have gone. Similar standard of player; one is fit and playing well, the other is neither.
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
10,221
Location
Behind the right goal post as "Whiteside shoots!"
Ahhh I see the usual caf tradition of shitting on an opposing player after one bad match and pretending they were rubbish all along is back. This is a pointless bump.

Henderson while not the greatest CM is someone who knows what it's like playing at a high level and does bring quality despite what people say. Bellingham, Rice, Phillips and JWP are all pretty inexperienced. Henderson has to be included.
Despite being overrated and playing for Liverpool, I'd admit he had a value as a player.. limited but solid i.m.o.... but not this season and his number of caps should be irrelevant. Pick players on ability and form... bet you Germany and Spain would.

Bellingham, Rice and Philips may not have his caps but they've all played well this season in tough leagues... they don't look like they need an older, semi fit player to keep an eye on them.

Maguire is different IF he is close to being able to play. If not, I'd leave him behind too, 26 players or not. All it takes is a couple of injuries/reds to one area and you're stuck.
 
Last edited:

sincher

"I will cry if Rooney leaves"
Joined
Sep 20, 2004
Messages
24,647
Location
YSC
Yeah, different with Maguire. Huge drop off in quality to the next choice, and he has been playing much more recently so if his ankle heals his basic fitness level should be close to ready. In a 26 he is worth a place. Quite glad White is in. I wonder if Southgate is tempted even to start him for Croatia given the alternatives are Mings and Coady. I guess it will be Walker, Coady, Stones if we play a 3, but Stones and either Mings or White if it's a 2.
 

The Purley King

Full Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
2,434
Bellingham is already far better than Henderson.
I wouldn't pick Henderson even if he was fully fit, he's incredibly limited as a player.
 

Figgins

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
571
Location
Araʻura
I mean beyond the fact that he's not even that good to begin with, the whole bringing him along and the debate over whether he can make it for the Euros is just bonkers for me; there is no way that a player, after 3 months out, having played 45mns of a shit friendly, will be anywhere near ready enough at any point of the competition to have any impact. It's even crazier when you realize that even at his best, his impact is very limited. It's a very different debate than the Maguire one for me, cos Maguire is of much better quality in the position he plays, was injured more recently (so might not need that long to get up to speed), and the quality we have in his position is too low generally speaking. Having said that, I wouldn't have taken Harry either unless it was clear that he would be able to play sooner rather than later at a high level.

But that we're sweating over the fitness of Jordan fecking Henderson is just insane. Southgate really has no courage.
Sadly, he's enough courage to imply AWB is at best the 6th best RB in the country by leaving him out of the Euros.
 

meamth

Full Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2017
Messages
4,671
Location
Malaysia
He's below Carrick at best, in barren pool of talents for midfielders.

And I'm talking about latter years, retiring Carrick.
 

Klopper76

"Did you see Fabinho against Red Star & Cardiff?"
Joined
Dec 15, 2015
Messages
14,963
Location
Victoria, BC
Supports
Liverpool
He is one of the few world class midfielders that England got. Not worth wasting a slot on him if not fit though.
Is Maguire even fit as well?
I don’t think of him as world class. He’s a very good midfield player who can do a great job in terms of getting around the pitch. His passing range is pretty good as well. Henderson’s been used in a specific way by Klopp over the last couple of years, and has flourished in that role.

He’s not fit though. Shouldn’t have been included imo. Mind boggling that Ward-Prowse has missed out.
 

FrankDrebin

Don't call me Shirley
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
9,512
Location
Police Squad
Supports
USA Manchester Red Socks
'If he's not fully fit, don't take him' has rarely been England's thinking concerning its better players on the eve of major International tournaments.
 

Paul_Scholes18

Full Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
11,019
I don’t think of him as world class. He’s a very good midfield player who can do a great job in terms of getting around the pitch. His passing range is pretty good as well. Henderson’s been used in a specific way by Klopp over the last couple of years, and has flourished in that role.

He’s not fit though. Shouldn’t have been included imo. Mind boggling that Ward-Prowse has missed out.
I guess it is a matter of definitions, but if you are captain for CL and PL winner as a key player then you are world class to me.
Hard to judge him on this season with the injuries, but it is clear that Pool missed him and Van Dijk as big leaders and key players.

Yeah maybe he is close to being back, but I would rather take fit player. The swedish manager has done equally strange things for us. If there is more injuries it can really backfire.
 

matherto

ask me about our 50% off sale!
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
15,396
Location
St. Helens
I love that he gave it the Billy Big Balls and fecked it up.

Doubly so love it that it was before the tournament so we don’t have to worry about him missing in a proper shootout again
 

Paul_Scholes18

Full Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
11,019
I love that he gave it the Billy Big Balls and fecked it up.

Doubly so love it that it was before the tournament so we don’t have to worry about him missing in a proper shootout again
Did Henderson score last world cup against Colombia? Actually did google and it say he was the only one that missed. Time to sub him before that this time.
 

Rooney in Paris

Gerrard shirt..Anfield? You'll Never Live it Down
Scout
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
31,255
Location
In an elephant sanctuary
I guess it is a matter of definitions, but if you are captain for CL and PL winner as a key player then you are world class to me.
Hard to judge him on this season with the injuries, but it is clear that Pool missed him and Van Dijk as big leaders and key players.

Yeah maybe he is close to being back, but I would rather take fit player. The swedish manager has done equally strange things for us. If there is more injuries it can really backfire.
I really don't think it's a matter of definitions. There's no definition whereby this guy is world class. He's way too limited for that, and what he does well isn't irreplaceable.
 

Red Star One

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2017
Messages
1,935
Location
Luxembourg/Warsaw
Not world class but very solid league professional with good mentality and charisma, that make him a better player than his footballing ability would suggest.
 

TwoSheds

More sheds (and tiles) than you, probably
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
7,225
On the basis that he won player of the year last year he's incredibly overrated, as much as any player in the Prem ever has been.

On the basis that everyone in this thread seems to think he's crap, he's underrated. He's just not fit. His long passing is weirdly good, better than Gerrard's ever was.
 

B20

HEY EVERYONE I IGNORE SOMEONE LOOK AT ME
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Messages
25,033
Location
Disney Land
Supports
Liverpool
On here he remains underrated. Abilitywise, he should not be world class, but he approaches it anyway because he has become so complete. Assured technique, fairly press resistant, good passer. Not spectacular but good enough that he can pick a penetrative pass in the final third.

And then there's the stuff he's learned over the years. Gets around well, always offering himself to solve problems for team mates, gets the ball forward well. Does very well in maintaining intensity of play both on and off the ball, and has the leadership to cajole his team mates into doing the same. And defensively he's top notch, whether it is pressing high up the pitch, supporting full backs or sitting deep.

He's a very complete midfielder. The fact that he is as comfortable box to box as he is in the holding role is a testament to that.

I actually think Gary Neville is not a bad comparison if you considered him borderline world class. No stand out qualities that should make him world class really but being good to very good at everything, the sum of his parts amounted to something that unimpressively approaches world class.

Like Neville, I expect that Henderson will drop off a cliff when his legs go.
 

Sandikan

aka sex on the beach
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
38,401
Just saw b20 refer to Henderson as approaching world class.

Sod this, I'm off to a more sensible thread.
 

DoubleDinhos

Liverpool Fan
Joined
Jan 30, 2010
Messages
977
Location
The Dreaded Lubyanka
This thread is a glimpse into what it must have been like for youse reading RAWK threads back in 2009 when Carrick was crap, Vidic was overrated, Rooney was just above average and the whole team was carried by luck and refs decisions.

Calling Henderson bang average made sense when we were scrapping for 5th, but it's bit silly considering he's been a mainstay in the spine of a CL winning and league winning side, and when he's had a laundry list of class performances in that time.

Can't comment on his performances for England though, I don't watch and don't care.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

Full Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
6,090
This thread is a glimpse into what it must have been like for youse reading RAWK threads back in 2009 when Carrick was crap, Vidic was overrated, Rooney was just above average and the whole team was carried by luck and refs decisions.

Calling Henderson bang average made sense when we were scrapping for 5th, but it's bit silly considering he's been a mainstay in the spine of a CL winning and league winning side, and when he's had a laundry list of class performances in that time.

Can't comment on his performances for England though, I don't watch and don't care.
Yeh because Henderson is as good as Carrick, Rooney and Vidic :lol: :lol:
 

NasirTimothy

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2021
Messages
702
Supports
Enyimba F.C.
I guess it is a matter of definitions, but if you are captain for CL and PL winner as a key player then you are world class to me.
Hard to judge him on this season with the injuries, but it is clear that Pool missed him and Van Dijk as big leaders and key players.

Yeah maybe he is close to being back, but I would rather take fit player. The swedish manager has done equally strange things for us. If there is more injuries it can really backfire.
This is not a good definition of a world class player IMO
 

NasirTimothy

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2021
Messages
702
Supports
Enyimba F.C.
On the basis that he won player of the year last year he's incredibly overrated, as much as any player in the Prem ever has been.

On the basis that everyone in this thread seems to think he's crap, he's underrated. He's just not fit. His long passing is weirdly good, better than Gerrard's ever was.
He’s not remotely fit and he grabbed the ball off a striker to miss a penalty that he had no business taking. All because he was desperate to score his first goal for England. If this is a sign of his ‘leadership’ then England are better off without it frankly
 

TwoSheds

More sheds (and tiles) than you, probably
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
7,225
He’s not remotely fit and he grabbed the ball off a striker to miss a penalty that he had no business taking. All because he was desperate to score his first goal for England. If this is a sign of his ‘leadership’ then England are better off without it frankly
Yeah goddamn him for wanting to score a goal for England in a friendly that was already won. Admittedly it's pretty poor to not let Calvert-Lewin have it but it's hardly the end of the world.
 

Rooney in Paris

Gerrard shirt..Anfield? You'll Never Live it Down
Scout
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
31,255
Location
In an elephant sanctuary
This thread is a glimpse into what it must have been like for youse reading RAWK threads back in 2009 when Carrick was crap, Vidic was overrated, Rooney was just above average and the whole team was carried by luck and refs decisions.
Awful example of players you've chosen. Henderson is miles off any of them.

This would go towards the notion that he's overrated.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

Full Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
6,090
Somehow managed to be more or less our best player in a title winning side that has no shortage of world class players.
I mean no he didn’t. VVD, Mane, Salah, all massively more vital. Trent, Robertson, Wynaldum, Firminho, Fabinho all probably equally, if not more vital than Henderson. He’s a decent player but having him anywhere even close to the three aforementioned names is nothing but nonsense. Rooney, Carrick and Vidic were the best, world class players in possibly the greatest premier league side of all time winning trophies year after year. Shouldn’t even need saying.
 

njred

HALA MADRID!
Joined
Nov 3, 2001
Messages
5,474
Supports
Liverpool
Awful example of players you've chosen. Henderson is miles off any of them.

This would go towards the notion that he's overrated.
Henderson might not be easy on the eye when it comes to his style of play but for long moments of our seasons he has been the player most important to us. Do you think we just make this stuff up? 2014 Henderson’s 3 match ban completely derailed my hopes on winning the title more than any other calamity that happened in the last few matches. Since you don’t watch him day in day out you wouldn’t have a clue of how important he is to Liverpool watching him harrass every opposition player with the ball and more often than not leads to starting a counter attack. England need that kind of effort. Star power and names just won’t get it done without effort. Just look at your own team’s downfalls. Mostly effort isn’t it?
 

sebsheep

Full Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2014
Messages
4,817
Location
Here
On here he remains underrated. Abilitywise, he should not be world class, but he approaches it anyway because he has become so complete. Assured technique, fairly press resistant, good passer. Not spectacular but good enough that he can pick a penetrative pass in the final third.

And then there's the stuff he's learned over the years. Gets around well, always offering himself to solve problems for team mates, gets the ball forward well. Does very well in maintaining intensity of play both on and off the ball, and has the leadership to cajole his team mates into doing the same. And defensively he's top notch, whether it is pressing high up the pitch, supporting full backs or sitting deep.

He's a very complete midfielder. The fact that he is as comfortable box to box as he is in the holding role is a testament to that.

I actually think Gary Neville is not a bad comparison if you considered him borderline world class. No stand out qualities that should make him world class really but being good to very good at everything, the sum of his parts amounted to something that unimpressively approaches world class.

Like Neville, I expect that Henderson will drop off a cliff when his legs go.
I heard he does card tricks as well!
 

NasirTimothy

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2021
Messages
702
Supports
Enyimba F.C.
Yeah goddamn him for wanting to score a goal for England in a friendly that was already won. Admittedly it's pretty poor to not let Calvert-Lewin have it but it's hardly the end of the world.
The game was ‘already won’ at 1-0?
 

RobinLFC

Cries when Liverpool doesn't get praised
Joined
May 20, 2014
Messages
15,184
Location
Belgium
Supports
Liverpool
there is no way that a player, after 3 months out, having played 45mns of a shit friendly, will be anywhere near ready enough at any point of the competition to have any impact.
We have the same thing going on with Axel Witsel (and Hazard to be honest), I'm very curious to see how it pans out.

I didn't watch the England game so can't comment on his performance but it's not unsurprising that a player puts in a shaky / bad outing in his first game back after a few months out, especially at international level. Regardless of how you rate Henderson, he's clearly thought of very highly by his peers, and perhaps his impact or influence on the group by just being a part of it is bigger than say JWP's impact with a few subs here and there, I dunno.

Vincent Kompany had been injured before the start of our 2018 World Cup and he was quite excellent throughout the tournament so it's not like it hasn't been done before, but I agree that it's usually nothing but a liability.
 

Rooney in Paris

Gerrard shirt..Anfield? You'll Never Live it Down
Scout
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
31,255
Location
In an elephant sanctuary
Henderson might not be easy on the eye when it comes to his style of play but for long moments of our seasons he has been the player most important to us. Do you think we just make this stuff up? 2014 Henderson’s 3 match ban completely derailed my hopes on winning the title more than any other calamity that happened in the last few matches. Since you don’t watch him day in day out you wouldn’t have a clue of how important he is to Liverpool watching him harrass every opposition player with the ball and more often than not leads to starting a counter attack. England need that kind of effort. Star power and names just won’t get it done without effort. Just look at your own team’s downfalls. Mostly effort isn’t it?
Nothing you've said has contradicted the fact that he's nowhere near as good as the 3 players that had been listed.

For what it's worth, I think he's a good player, excelling in the perfect set up for him, and leveraging his athletic qualities that are higher than his innate footballing talent. Which is credit to him.

That doesn't make him world class by any stretch of the imagination, though.
We have the same thing going on with Axel Witsel (and Hazard to be honest), I'm very curious to see how it pans out.

I didn't watch the England game so can't comment on his performance but it's not unsurprising that a player puts in a shaky / bad outing in his first game back after a few months out, especially at international level. Regardless of how you rate Henderson, he's clearly thought of very highly by his peers, and perhaps his impact or influence on the group by just being a part of it is bigger than say JWP's impact with a few subs here and there, I dunno.

Vincent Kompany had been injured before the start of our 2018 World Cup and he was quite excellent throughout the tournament so it's not like it hasn't been done before, but I agree that it's usually nothing but a liability.
How long had Kompany been injured before the world cup? Had he played 45' of football in over 3 months?

Not being snarky, I genuinely don't know, but I just don't see how after such a lengthy spell being out, he can perform anywhere near the level that will be required, even moreso for a player relying so much on athleticism. That he is good for morale and leadership is probably true (though his behaviour on Sunday certainly put a dent into that notion), but why not just bring him along with the staff, like Beckham in 2010?
 

Valencia Shin Crosses

Full Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2015
Messages
1,062
Location
"Martial...He's isolated Skrtel here..."
Henderson might not be easy on the eye when it comes to his style of play but for long moments of our seasons he has been the player most important to us. Do you think we just make this stuff up? 2014 Henderson’s 3 match ban completely derailed my hopes on winning the title more than any other calamity that happened in the last few matches. Since you don’t watch him day in day out you wouldn’t have a clue of how important he is to Liverpool watching him harrass every opposition player with the ball and more often than not leads to starting a counter attack. England need that kind of effort. Star power and names just won’t get it done without effort. Just look at your own team’s downfalls. Mostly effort isn’t it?
What? No our struggles are definitely not "mostly effort"
 

RobinLFC

Cries when Liverpool doesn't get praised
Joined
May 20, 2014
Messages
15,184
Location
Belgium
Supports
Liverpool
How long had Kompany been injured before the world cup? Had he played 45' of football in over 3 months?

Not being snarky, I genuinely don't know, but I just don't see how after such a lengthy spell being out, he can perform anywhere near the level that will be required, even moreso for a player relying so much on athleticism. That he is good for morale and leadership is probably true (though his behaviour on Sunday certainly put a dent into that notion), but why not just bring him along with the staff, like Beckham in 2010?
I thought he'd been injured since forever but turns out he was out for a few weeks, so not really comparable no.

The business end of the tournament is still a few weeks away, maybe he gets more competitive with some high intensity training sessions but hard to see him have any (positive) impact yeah.