Jordan Henderson : voices player welfare fears

djembatheking

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Jorginho plays for Chelsea. Declan Rice has had to play potentially every 4 days since lockdown ended 18 months ago. Its not so easy to rotate when you aren't City, United or Chelsea.
Rice should sign for United then. Problem solved.
 

Stretford_End_17

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Another millionaire complaining about his tough job. Jordan Henderson should work in the real world as a construction worker or something like that.

Im sick tired of these divas, they really live in a bubble and its not surprising this nonsense come from liverpool more than any other place recently. The players have the encouragement from Klopp, he wants winter break and other Bundesliga stuff in English Football.

Hopefully the PL stays strong and reject the continental approach to football. English Football is unique and must remain that way.

They dont like it ? They think its tough ? Ok, sign for a Bundesliga or Spanish club, enjoy your winter break and 5 subs. Problem solved.
 

Jippy

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Another millionaire complaining about his tough job. Jordan Henderson should work in the real world as a construction worker or something like that.

Im sick tired of these divas, they really live in a bubble and its not surprising this nonsense come from liverpool more than any other place recently. The players have the encouragement from Klopp, he wants winter break and other Bundesliga stuff in English Football.

Hopefully the PL stays strong and reject the continental approach to football. English Football is unique and must remain that way.

They dont like it ? They think its tough ? Ok, sign for a Bundesliga or Spanish club, enjoy your winter break and 5 subs. Problem solved.
I like the games over Christmas as much as the next person, but you're slating five subs as if it's a slight upon masculinity.

The only downside to five subs would be the effective removal of any chance of an outfield player ever having to go in goal.
 

Hammondo

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Risking themselves? Are there anyone out there who are risking themself any less than these players? They are at so little risk that quite a few of them are more worried about the vaccine than covid.

And it also seem like he is complaining about the fixtures rather than the covid-situation. And I really struggle to feel sorry for footballers complaining that they are at too big of a risk of getting injured do to the number of games.
Just about everyoy risks themselves less because our work does not strain our body like their does, or even close. The risk of injury playing this often increases heavily.
 

Hammondo

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I don't get what exactly is his point? Does he want a medal for providing for his family?
Maybe they are not getting enough respect from their family, and not people around them? He can apways skip games if he wants to, I am pretty sure many player do that.

Poor footballers, having to work 3-4 hours a day in one of best facilites in the world with small group of people. While their entire family is protected, doesn't have to work anything, having everything they need in their house in this covid period so having less possibility of catching the covid than average person.

How about families where entire household has to work for 8-10 hours every day in crowded places, poor conditions, etc., and only for not being able to pay covid threatment once they get it.
You didn't read the article.
 

Withnail

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Some of the posters saying players should just ask to sit out a game when they're feeling overworked or that managers should use their squad more would be among the first to complain if we dropped points because we played squad players they didn't rate or a player declined to play.
Exactly. Player X wasn't even injured, he doesn't want it enough. Get rid.
 

Hammondo

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I am pretty sure many here would swap their careers with Jordan Henderson, so just because they say that every time it doesn't mean it's not valid point.

I am pretty sure he can always spend one or two games on the bench if he feels exhausted.

I work probably the most in my family and probably also earn the most. And yet there are couple of people in my family who cry all the time about having to work saturdays, longer hours, etc., and I do that regulary and hardly ever complain because I know that will make me more money because I spend the most too. Do I complain? Not really, I don't need to work that much, but that's my decision, not anyone elses.

If I have any complaints I complain to my boss, and not to people around me.
What if your boss isn't the one who can fix it? What if the problem is serious health problems?
 

Hammondo

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Another millionaire complaining about his tough job. Jordan Henderson should work in the real world as a construction worker or something like that.

Im sick tired of these divas, they really live in a bubble and its not surprising this nonsense come from liverpool more than any other place recently. The players have the encouragement from Klopp, he wants winter break and other Bundesliga stuff in English Football.

Hopefully the PL stays strong and reject the continental approach to football. English Football is unique and must remain that way.

They dont like it ? They think its tough ? Ok, sign for a Bundesliga or Spanish club, enjoy your winter break and 5 subs. Problem solved.
Perfect example of ignorance and arrogance, can't learn something from another country that does something better.
 

Withnail

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Another millionaire complaining about his tough job. Jordan Henderson should work in the real world as a construction worker or something like that.

Im sick tired of these divas, they really live in a bubble and its not surprising this nonsense come from liverpool more than any other place recently. The players have the encouragement from Klopp, he wants winter break and other Bundesliga stuff in English Football.

Hopefully the PL stays strong and reject the continental approach to football. English Football is unique and must remain that way.

They dont like it ? They think its tough ? Ok, sign for a Bundesliga or Spanish club, enjoy your winter break and 5 subs. Problem solved.
Your tired of divas while I'm tired of these lazy takes. Anyone who says 'don't like it?, why don't you leave the country' should not be taken seriously.
 

Stretford_End_17

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Perfect example of ignorance and arrogance, can't learn something from another country that does something better.
PL has bigger, outstanding Tv deals thanks to its unique fixture, christmas games, intensity, almost no rest, etc

Thanks to those bigger Tv deals, PL teams can sign better players than Bundesliga and we can see the results in CL.

In the last 20 years 5 PL teams have won the CL, 3 different PL teams have won it and we lost track of how many PL teams got to the final in those 20 years.

Bundesliga has won it twice and the same team did it.

So the idea Bundesliga does it better is completely wrong. its a fact. Money, Tv audience, trophies, etc you name it. PL outperforms Bundesliga in every aspect.
 

Hammondo

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PL has bigger, outstanding Tv deals thanks to its unique fixture, christmas games, intensity, almost no rest, etc

Thanks to those bigger Tv deals, PL teams can sign better players than Bundesliga and we can see the results in CL.

In the last 20 years 5 PL teams have won the CL, 3 different PL teams have won it and we lost track of how many PL teams got to the final in those 20 years.

Bundesliga has won it twice and the same team did it.

So the idea Bundesliga does it better is completely wrong. its a fact. Money, Tv audience, trophies, etc you name it. PL outperforms Bundesliga in every aspect.
Your priorities are horrible.

The La liga is the most successful league for producing CL winners, by your logic we should copy them.

For scheduling the PL is poor.
 

Trequarista10

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Re: fixture pile ups, at a certain point, clubs have to take responsibility. The clubs worst affected by fixture schedules are the top clubs (competing in Europe, majority of players internationals). These teams have huge squads. Use them. It'd be easy to schedule each player a couple weeks off over the course of a season. Play more squad players and youth.

United alone, we have Henderson, Heaton, Dalot, Telles, Bailly, Tuanzebe, Williams, Garner, Laird, Van De Beek, Lingard, Diallo, Mata, Chong, Pellistri, Martial who have either barely played or been farmed out on loan. Not including Pogba, Cavani, Jones and Varane who have suffered injuries, or Matic who has played a small amount. Plus youngsters like Hannibal.
 

C'est Moi Cantona

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Get rid of the horrible international breaks, the Caribou for clubs in Europe, but don't mess with the Christmas fixtures, it's all part of what makes the prem so special, if they need a break then give it to them in mid January when things are depressing anyway.
 

Eriku

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How does that have anything with winter break and Henderson fighting against tiredness?

I am having a mare because you don't agree with my opinion? That's great communication from the staff member of this forum, no wonder that the quality dropped so much in recent years and older members generally don't bother spend so much time here posting anymore.
:lol:

As an older poster I’ll say that I like the mods, and twatty takes like yours are more likely to turn me away from this place.

He also put in bold the point you made that he responded to with the link. You really are having a mare, whether you realise it or not.
 

Rightnr

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While I think player welfare is important, I think they've missed a trick in how they 'sell' the complaint.

They should focus on the deteriorating quality of the football as a result of the gruelling schedule which makes for worse entertainment. While this is not the most humane selling point, it's what people would care about because as much as people like to go on about footballers being normal, it's hard to look past their exuberant wages when assessing the fairness of their troubles.
 

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He also put in bold the point you made that he responded to with the link.
He gave example of Henderson doing something right but also completely irrelevant to this topic, which pretty much shows how Henderson should do in this case, and not cry about it to the media and ask for sympathy. Which is pretty much what I said that he should do, regarding this topic, and not some other topic.

You also have the ignore button for posters like me, if you don't bother reading my posts, I don't mind if you use it. Something that we can't use for staff members unfortunately.
 

Eriku

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He gave example of Henderson doing something right but also completely irrelevant to this topic, which pretty much shows how Henderson should do in this case, and not cry about it to the media and ask for sympathy. Which is pretty much what I said that he should do, regarding this topic, and not some other topic.

You also have the ignore button for posters like me, if you don't bother reading my posts, I don't mind if you use it. Something that we can't use for staff members unfortunately.
YOU raised the point about charity, he wasn’t talking about that until you raised that snarky point which showed you making wrongful assumptions about Henderson. Then you proceed to get snooty with him as if he’s derailing the thread.

Backpeddle all you want, but there’s egg on your face, and you’d get far more credit for owning up to that.
 

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YOU raised the point about charity, he wasn’t talking about that until you raised that snarky point which showed you making wrongful assumptions about Henderson. Then you proceed to get snooty with him as if he’s derailing the thread.

Backpeddle all you want, but there’s egg on your face, and you’d get far more credit for owning up to that.
If he wants to make a change he might consider watching what Rashford has done, and not ask for sympathy in interview.
I literally said he should not ask for sympathy in interview(the OP interview, do I need to explain which interview I was talking to?), which proves that I was talking about this topic, and not about Henderson making some charitable change in the world ffs. We are not talking about Henderson in general but we are discussing topic of winter break.

I used Rashford's example because Rashford actually did something and not just cry about his issues on TV.
 

Chipper

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I mean I want to care about my fellow human beings and stuff but is it such a hardship that footballers might feel a bit tired? My instinct is no.

Always been against larger sub benches too, suppose I'm a bit old-school in that respect. I'm not that old at 42 but remember when you had 2 players on the bench. I used to like those days, it made games a little more unpredictable due to injuries/tactial changes and managers would really have to plan for every eventuality. If a player got injured and had to go off they'd have to shuffle the pack, often changing the position of one, two or even three players. It was also the era of the utility man. Clayton Blackmore was an obvious one for us, as he often filled in at either full-back position, central midfield or wide-right. Suppose O'Shea was a similar but the size of subs benches had grown by then.

Anyway, I liked how managers had to think on their feet and plug players in to somewhat alien positions for them. I recall Roy Keane covering in central defence and right back due to injuries or red cards at times. I don't think that it's a coincidence that the wealthiest clubs have become more and more dominant, winning more titles and setting record points tallies as the number of players allowed on the bench and the number allowed to be brought on has grown. It's certainly made things easier for those fortunate clubs and their coaches.

Some might like that, and I appreciate that, possibly thinking that it truly shows who is the best and eliminating randomness or luck factor from the game. Personally I like to keep hold of it so would resist the number of subs allowed growing further. I think it becomes a sport of who has the most money even more if you go down those lines.

As for the fixture congestion, a manager can always rest players by not picking them and the wealthiest clubs have many options to choose from. Not really much sympathy there from me either.
 

Eriku

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I literally said he should not ask for sympathy in interview(the OP interview, do I need to explain which interview I was talking to?), which proves that I was talking about this topic, and not about Henderson making some charitable change in the world ffs. We are not talking about Henderson in general but we are discussing topic of winter break.

I used Rashford's example because Rashford actually did something and not just cry about his issues on TV.
Ffs, took me ages to figure what on earth you were on about. It’s not as if Rashford’s been in the news talking about changes in the schedule. The way you’re mixing things is begging to be misunderstood.

Fine, I get what you’re saying now. Even if it seems ludicrous to suggest that a player should be fronting this, rather than player unions and clubs. I’m not even sure how you could equate what Rashford’s done to what Henderson might do to change the framework for players’ conditions. I’ll leave that to the side though.
 

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Ffs, took me ages to figure what on earth you were on about. It’s not as if Rashford’s been in the news talking about changes in the schedule. The way you’re mixing things is begging to be misunderstood.

Fine, I get what you’re saying now. Even if it seems ludicrous to suggest that a player should be fronting this, rather than player unions and clubs. I’m not even sure how you could equate what Rashford’s done to what Henderson might do to change the framework for players’ conditions. I’ll leave that to the side though.
Sorry, but I thought it was quite clear. But English isn't my first language so missunderstanding can happen, but I feel I don't need to explain everything.

Regarding the topic, I think he should talk to his managers to rest most tired players during this period, or to start a strike, from that interview he says that the players just hush about it; but didn't do anything vocal so far. They work for their clubs, and not Premierleague, so they should do something at club level, IMO, as a players they can't complain to PL. Clubs should deal with PL if players take a stand.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Henderson is obviously right and reflexively pointing to footballers' wages and comparing them to healthcare workers as a way of dismissing his point is stupid.
The wages angle is obviously a stupid irrelevance but equally it’s hard to feel very sorry for footballers at risk of (the absolute horror) a pulled muscle from not getting enough rest between matches.

And that’s without even getting into managers who piss and moan about the absolute atrocity of it all despite having numerous international footballers in their squad that will finish the season with a single digit number of league games started.
 

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The wages angle is obviously a stupid irrelevance but equally it’s hard to feel very sorry for footballers at risk of (the absolute horror) a pulled muscle from not getting enough rest between matches.

And that’s without even getting into managers who piss and moan about the absolute atrocity of it all despite having numerous international footballers in their squad that will finish the season with a single digit number of league games started.
It's more than pulled muscles isn't it? ACLs, Achilles, broken ankles...

I do agree that more questions need to be asked of these managers... As to why they don't utilize their big squads more. But the load on footballers is too much, something has to give.
 

sullydnl

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The wages angle is obviously a stupid irrelevance but equally it’s hard to feel very sorry for footballers at risk of (the absolute horror) a pulled muscle from not getting enough rest between matches.

And that’s without even getting into managers who piss and moan about the absolute atrocity of it all despite having numerous international footballers in their squad that will finish the season with a single digit number of league games started.
I dunno. You see enough ex-pros still struggling with knee/hip problems to know their careers can physically wear them down in ways that last a lot longer than a pulled muscle does. And within the context of their careers less permanent injuries can have serious impact. Get the wrong injury at the wrong time and your career goes down a very different path. On top of that you have more exceptional incidents like the much talked heart issues that have been making headlines recently. Given the physical toll football can already carry at that level and the various ways a career can be cut short, being concerned that more and more is being demanded of them physically seems pretty fair.

And then there's the pandemic on top of all that, with all the potential health issues and personal cost that brings.

Piling more and more games on players past their physical limit hardly seems conducive to either their long-term health or the quality of the football fans get to enjoy, so it seems to me it's in both the players' and the fans' interests for the likes of Henderson to be making this argument.

Which makes it strange that people are so quick to react by saying they have no sympathy for the players. Especially when in this instance not agreeing with Henderson presumably means agreeing with the outlook of FIFA/UEFA/PL/etc., themselves a less than sympathetic bunch.

Not sure why I'm arguing about this on Christmas Day, mind.
 
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Pogue Mahone

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It's more than pulled muscles isn't it? ACLs, Achilles, broken ankles...

I do agree that more questions need to be asked of these managers... As to why they don't utilize their big squads more. But the load on footballers is too much, something has to give.
I dunno. You see enough ex-pros still struggling with knee/hip problems to know their careers can physically wear them down in ways that last a lot longer than a pulled muscle does. And within the context of their careers less permanent injuries can have serious impact. Get the wrong injury at the wrong time and your career goes down a very different path. On top of that you have more exceptional incidents like the much talked heart issues that have been making headlines recently. Given the physical toll football can already carry at that level and the various ways a career can be cut short, being concerned that more and more is being demanded of them physically seems pretty fair.

And then there's the pandemic on top of all that, with all the potential health issues and personal cost that brings.

Piling more and more games on players past their physical limit hardly seems conducive to either their long-term health or the quality of the football fans get to enjoy, so it seems to me it's in both the players' and the fans' interests for the likes of Henderson to be making this argument.

Which makes it strange that people are so quick to react by saying they have no sympathy for the players. Especially when in this instance not agreeing with Henderson presumably means agreeing with the outlook of FIFA/UEFA/PL/etc., themselves a less than sympathetic bunch.

Not sure why I'm arguing about this on Christmas Day, mind.
I don’t see how you can link the really serious long term overuse injuries to a packed schedule in this particular season. That’s a long term issue. Which won’t be helped by the intensity a manager like Klopp wants his players to play the game at and his relative reluctance to rotate. Of course much greater mileage the modern footballers goes through is partially offset by recent advances in sports medicine that allow far better injury anticipation, prevention, treatment and rehab than any of their peers from the era before the Premier League.

I definitely have some sympathy with their being too many games to play every season. And the international calendar seems to be getting more and more ridiculous. But I get the impression from the story in the OP that Henderson’s beef is aligned with his managers moaning about the pile-up of fixtures this week. Which is no big deal, in the grand scheme of things.

Anyway, Merry Christmas to both of you. This has been a pleasing 5 minute distraction from trimming the cocking brussel sprouts!
 

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Some of you find wages comparism stupid but it is not. They are payed millions because they play in a league where fans want to watch games every few days. And because of fans, average PL player has salary like much better players in other leagues.
They don't like playing often? All good. Go to play in some other league for less money. How is that hard to understand; more games=more fans watching=more money from sponsors=more money for players.

I am sorry but i am sick of all those crying by (mostly) PL players. They want to play one game per week but still want to earn same money? Well, it doesn't go like that.
Same goes for managers. Biggest cry babies are the ones who have biggest roster. Use it, ffs.

Btw; Jordan nailed it
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...ardiola-Jurgen-Klopp-fixtures-complaints.html
 
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I mean I want to care about my fellow human beings and stuff but is it such a hardship that footballers might feel a bit tired? My instinct is no.

Always been against larger sub benches too, suppose I'm a bit old-school in that respect. I'm not that old at 42 but remember when you had 2 players on the bench. I used to like those days, it made games a little more unpredictable due to injuries/tactial changes and managers would really have to plan for every eventuality. If a player got injured and had to go off they'd have to shuffle the pack, often changing the position of one, two or even three players. It was also the era of the utility man. Clayton Blackmore was an obvious one for us, as he often filled in at either full-back position, central midfield or wide-right. Suppose O'Shea was a similar but the size of subs benches had grown by then.
It's less about being tired, it's that you're far more susceptible to injury when you're fatigued and in the red zone. Ex pros usually end their career being physically fecked. A family member who played for Tranmere is physically done at 50 and struggled with walking.

2 subs was back in the late 80s/early 90s, but it's not feasible in today's football. The stress on the body is far greater today than it was then (crazy tackles aside). Players today play at a significantly higher intensity, they cover far more distance while spending more time sprinting than their predecessors. Even if we cut down the window to only 15 years ago, high intensity runs have risen by well over 50%.

Edit: although I do agree with people in the thread with regards to managers being able to do more
 

Chipper

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It's less about being tired, it's that you're far more susceptible to injury when you're fatigued and in the red zone. Ex pros usually end their career being physically fecked. A family member who played for Tranmere is physically done at 50 and struggled with walking.

2 subs was back in the late 80s/early 90s, but it's not feasible in today's football. The stress on the body is far greater today than it was then (crazy tackles aside). Players today play at a significantly higher intensity, they cover far more distance while spending more time sprinting than their predecessors. Even if we cut down the window to only 15 years ago, high intensity runs have risen by well over 50%.

Edit: although I do agree with people in the thread with regards to managers being able to do more
Was a bit drunk typing that the other day, I'll admit that! Well it's the time of the year and I was being a bit harsh or simplistic on purpose, feeling bold and all that. I'm the same way now in all honesty but feck it.

Agree that you're more susceptible to injury the more fatigued you are and the more you push your body, and that managers could do something by resting players in certain games, particularly those managers who are blessed with some of the larger budgets which should in theory allow them to accumulate strength of depth.

It's going to be rare for a player to go to a manger and ask to be rested. First because they like to play obviously, second because perhaps they might not want to look bad or like a bit of a wimp to the boss. In that way Henderson is being brave in a way and coming out to talk about this. I think it was a running theme that Rooney for example would often insist that he would play and Fergie joked about him being angry if it was even suggested he'd be rested for a game here or there.

Don't really know where I'm going with this, I have no point to make! Going up a few posts to what @Pogue Mahone posted , that was quite interesting to me regarding advances in sports medicine etc. While players undoubtedly run more than ever they're in a position to do so too being more fit, having nicer pitches, the game not allowing the strength of tackle it once did etc. Then there's the data analysts who don't just monitor match performance but also training performance, trying to pick up on signs that someone might need a small break here and there. I wonder if all that evens itself out to a degree?

Is a less fit player from 20-30 years ago in an age of less medical science/slightly worse pitches/more brutal tackling allowed running himself into the ground putting in less effort or feeling it less than a more fit player doing the same now despite not running as far? I would think it's quite relative but I'm no expert at all, that's just an instinctive answer.

Bit random - have a look at this; Irwin and Bruce 62 appearances for the season, a few more with very high looking numbers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993–94_Manchester_United_F.C._season#Squad_statistics

Almost eye watering stats.
 

Lash

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Find it an absolute bollocks complaint to be honest. If you're too tired to play and don't want to risk injury, you can tell your manager and the medical staff to not play you, for that very reason. A squad is 25 players for a reason, these arguments get trotted out by teams that hardly rotate and play a very intense style.

It also comes out when it suits them, I'm sure they'll complain about the fixture pile up from not playing games when they're in the latter stages of the CL too, playing the rearranged games.
 

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Was a bit drunk typing that the other day, I'll admit that! Well it's the time of the year and I was being a bit harsh or simplistic on purpose, feeling bold and all that. I'm the same way now in all honesty but feck it.

Agree that you're more susceptible to injury the more fatigued you are and the more you push your body, and that managers could do something by resting players in certain games, particularly those managers who are blessed with some of the larger budgets which should in theory allow them to accumulate strength of depth.

It's going to be rare for a player to go to a manger and ask to be rested. First because they like to play obviously, second because perhaps they might not want to look bad or like a bit of a wimp to the boss. In that way Henderson is being brave in a way and coming out to talk about this. I think it was a running theme that Rooney for example would often insist that he would play and Fergie joked about him being angry if it was even suggested he'd be rested for a game here or there.
I think you've made some good points here.

I agree about the strength in depth. Especially when there's often internationals on the bench and other high standard footballers (although covid is impacting this a bit at the moment). I do think players can be hesitant to go to the manager as you said, I know there are some managers who would certainly take this as a failing and a symptom of a weak mentality (some of the stories I've heard about Mourinho come to mind).

Don't really know where I'm going with this, I have no point to make! Going up a few posts to what @Pogue Mahone posted , that was quite interesting to me regarding advances in sports medicine etc. While players undoubtedly run more than ever they're in a position to do so too being more fit, having nicer pitches, the game not allowing the strength of tackle it once did etc. Then there's the data analysts who don't just monitor match performance but also training performance, trying to pick up on signs that someone might need a small break here and there. I wonder if all that evens itself out to a degree?

Is a less fit player from 20-30 years ago in an age of less medical science/slightly worse pitches/more brutal tackling allowed running himself into the ground putting in less effort or feeling it less than a more fit player doing the same now despite not running as far? I would think it's quite relative but I'm no expert at all, that's just an instinctive answer.
This is again a really good point, and an interesting subject. As you said it is relative to their environment, and I've not got any data to hand in terms of plus 20 years ago, but my gut instinct is that players probably picked up more injuries back then, and were probably more at threat when it came to severe injuries (and problematic recoveries from them. I know that if we compare injuries from 2000 to about now, injuries have decreased at a steady rate, the relapse rate has decreased, and players generally spend more time uninjured. If I remember correctly, I think muscle injuries are the only ones that have stayed constant, if not risen ever so slightly, I think that's probably tied in to less recovery time between games. As for the overall rate decreasing, I think there's many reasons for that, and most of them you've named, the injury prevention protocols have made a big difference. Even at lower levels, the way in which they approach this is far more thorough and holistic than it was 20 years ago. Better pitches as you said is also a massive one, I think that probably makes a significant difference.

Bit random - have a look at this; Irwin and Bruce 62 appearances for the season, a few more with very high looking numbers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993–94_Manchester_United_F.C._season#Squad_statistics

Almost eye watering stats.
While they're both ridiculously high numbers as it is, I think Irwin's is even more incredible as he would have to add on his international games as well. Not even just the actual game time but the lack of recovery time due to travel.

When I look at lists of most appearances through the years, a lot of the time it's tipped by a very high amount of international games. I think streamlining the international competition process might be a way of giving players (especially those with high amounts of travel and fixtures) more recovery time. Admittedly I have no idea how you'd go about it.