Ji-Sung Park would've had an absolute field day with him.
Jorginho | Arsenal player
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
My car gets forty rods to the hogshead and that's the way I likes it.
I don't know what it means either mate.
So basically it's a Pirlo. Thanks.
People obsess over deep-lying playmakers since when? Can you give examples of others obsessed over in the last year, or even when Jorginho himself was obsessed over?
All players always have options; that's a throwaway statement. There are numerous ways for a deep player to accumulate massive statistical returns without doing much of anything.
You also seem to be purposely overlooking what actually happens now, on the pitch, rather focusing on the good times at the start of the season before things went south for Chelsea.
The barometer for Jorginho's passing was set before he even got to England and if he's not meeting it - and in this case, he's miles off it - questions should and will be asked.
it's not like Lukaku though, is it? Lukaku has continued along the same technical curve he always had, which is why his first touch was mocked before he even put a United shirt on.
What we're seeing with Jorginho is a normally composed, technical user of the ball playing in a shaky, nervous fashion and looking like a joke because without his passing, he has literally nothing to offer. His lack of athleticism was noted by some posters way before he came to England, but I doubt anyone thought Sarri would do absolutely nothing to facilitate a player he brought to the club.
Jorginho running around looking lost and like a shambles of a player is going to continue for as long as he is not protected. You're saying he's shite, I am not sure I would reach that conclusion until he is catered for.
Of course they obsess over him. Its why players like Pereira get built up on for 3 seasons here because they can pass the ball 3 yards wide for 90 minutes and we pretend that's the modern style.
Jorginho was struggling to make an impact when Chelsea were playing well but we were told his 1000 passes without an assist (whatever it is) was misleading because it isn't his job to create. Now we're being told his job isn't to defend because he gets isolated too easily and needs midfield support so what does he do hat merits building a midfield around him?
Jorginho has been constantly called out for his nothing performances since he stepped foot on the Stamford Bridge pitch so there's no need to pretend his struggles has coincided with Chelsea's poor run of form.
In fact he's one of the glaring reasons why hey have fallen away. You can't separate the two.
If only certain fans gave United players the benefit of the doubt huh?
I saw "libero" higher up as well I believe...I don't get it
Looking at how Jorginho is playing it's not much different than at Napoli, he only got very few assists with Napoli see the stats, mainly just re/distributed the ball a lot and kept possession. That part is working, loads of passes and possession for Chelsea every match, 67% last night and double the passes of Utd. The problem is it's all going to a dead end with zero creativity, (two shots on target yesterday, one was a freekick! awful!) and the whole system is also very vulnerable defensively to any half decent opposition.
The big difference between Napoli and Chelsea imo, is mainly that the other two midfielders especially, 3 forwards and two fullbacks are offering almost nothing creatively against any half decent opposition. The whole balance of the midfield and team is off and doesn't work at all. All they do is pass it around in front of the defence.
If I was Sarri I would start by changing up Kante/ Kovacic (positions from last night), (don't think Kante in current high position will ever work) with Barkley or even Hazard, or change to 4 2 3 1 and put Kante in his natural position in the 2.
Jorginho not the main problem, it goes much deeper than that.
The big difference between Napoli and Chelsea imo, is mainly that the other two midfielders especially, 3 forwards and two fullbacks are offering almost nothing creatively against any half decent opposition. The whole balance of the midfield and team is off and doesn't work at all. All they do is pass it around in front of the defence.
If I was Sarri I would start by changing up Kante/ Kovacic (positions from last night), (don't think Kante in current high position will ever work) with Barkley or even Hazard, or change to 4 2 3 1 and put Kante in his natural position in the 2.
Jorginho not the main problem, it goes much deeper than that.
You've given no examples except to point out Pereira who is hardly of the same ilk and would have been talked up as a United prospect first and foremost.
I didn't know much about Jorginho but was informed of him by @Invictus and a few others before I'd got to see him play myself and was told the exact same as we're seeing. That was before he even arrived at Chelsea, so this thing of it being a mark against him that he'd struggle if left to fend for himself is not new in the slightest.
There's only so many times him being slow and unathletic can be mentioned before you have to look elsewhere and ask why that's being exposed so incessantly.
Players having a tough time of it rarely show their quality unless they have an imperious constitution, which Jorginho clearly does not, so it can't be a surprise he's being found wanting as Sarri's system is meticulously taken to pieces by PL coaches who can't believe their luck that nothing is changing and they have free rein to hammer Jorginho game after game as we're seeing.
You said he's been called out from the start for nothing performances since he got there - I remember him being rated for those displays and people believing in 'Sarriball' wholeheartedly... until it all fell apart.
Having a player like him in your team should necessitate facilitation otherwise, what's the point of playing him? He needs runners off the ball; he needs legs and engines protecting him and then you asses how good he is at what he's in the team to do, that's how I would see it, anyway.
For me, it's almost the same thing. Never really rated him at Napoli, liked his teammates better then. What I'm seeing is a confirmation of what I already saw but to a worse extent
As things stand, he just shouldn't be played, imo. It's ruining his confidence and he's a total liability and will continue to be until he has the base conditions met to enable him to display his wares.
I'm not sure he's good enough to build a team around though, as you're talking Pirlo, [old] Scholes level for that, which he's nowhere near.
“Libero” has been commonly used since at least the 1970s.I saw "libero" higher up as well I believe...I don't get it
Does everything have to pass the “what would a Proper Football Man say” before it’s posted on the forum now?
Just a total nothing player. Neat and tidy but doesn’t contribute enough offensively or defensively. Plus it also means playing Kante out of position.
He’s lucky Lingard isn’t fit because he wouldn’t of got near him. Playing against Mata suites him better but he still did nothing.
If I was Chelseas manager I wouldn’t have him in the side.
He’s lucky Lingard isn’t fit because he wouldn’t of got near him. Playing against Mata suites him better but he still did nothing.
If I was Chelseas manager I wouldn’t have him in the side.
A Chelsea fan had a look at a training session for Chelsea earlier on in the season and they were doing that passing circle (with two players in the middle trying to win the ball). Jorginho despite losing the ball a few times never went into the middle to tackle, he was exempt from that.
Chelsea joining us in saving City a lot of wasted money.
The first time I saw Jorginho's thighs I already know how weak he is physically.
For example here:
He lacks any decent muscles to be physically imposing. To make all that defensive runs, you need to work on your legs muscles. That is just hard to watch.
EDIT:
and this too:
Man, that is so weak, I can tell.
For example here:
He lacks any decent muscles to be physically imposing. To make all that defensive runs, you need to work on your legs muscles. That is just hard to watch.
EDIT:
and this too:
Man, that is so weak, I can tell.
To be fair, there are loads of high level footballers built like twinks. Have you ever seen Neymar? Lingard?The first time I saw Jorginho's thighs I already know how weak he is physically.
For example here:
He lacks any decent muscles to be physically imposing. To make all that defensive runs, you need to work on your legs muscles. That is just hard to watch.
EDIT:
and this too:
Man, that is so weak, I can tell.
There's plenty of examples of this place creaming itself over players who can play a sideways pass. This forum wanted Matic dropped for Perreira, Tielemans was the must have midfielder of his generation, the Thiago nonsense nearly broke this forum because somebody once said he was the next Xavi, Gundogan going to City was to bring on the apocalypse. Even calls for us to jump in for Kovacic before he joined Chelsea on loan.
This place yearns for technical players whether they're good enough for us or not and are blind to the deficiencies these players sometimes brings and are given far too much leeway because of it.
Look at how long the Lukaku v Morata thread went on for despite the fact Morata gave up 6 weeks in.
There's posters on this forum who jump over DDG because he isn't the best at playing out from the back for crying out loud.
Jorginhos problem is simply down to not adapting to English football. Even when he had a false nine in Hazard dropping deep to basically form a central midfield four, with a ball playing centre back behind him btw, there were still cries about not having enough passing options etc on for him.
If a player of his limited abilties needs the side to be built around him so he can semi function then he isn't cut out for a top side since he isn't good enough to be that player.
Attackers tend to have leaner and slimmer thighs. Midfielders usually have that defined legs, see Scholes, Modric, Xavi, even Veratti. You can see how muscular their thighs are.
It doesn't have to be big, but muscular enough to do all the work in midfield. Jorginho is a weird one, so scrawny looking.
EDIT:
This is a similar pose with Jorginho i posed earlier. Look at Busquets, he is lanky but look at his legs muscles:
Mate it entirely depends on your body type and build.
Some people can have immense strength without necessarily having size. You also then have to factor in height to weight. Jorginho is 1.80 according to google and scholes, Modric, Xavi and Veratti are half a foot shorter (veratti is the shortest of the lot). If he is to look the same, he would be considerably heavier than those listed because his muscles are much larger given the extra height.
But to put it in normal terms, Arnold Schwarzenegger is so revered in Body Building because he is 1.88 meters tall and had the body that he did. Incredibly hard to do and maintain because he has to grow his muscles that much more than somebody that is 1.75 meters tall such as Phil Heath (Modern Day repeated Mr. Olympia winner).
I havent seen enough of him to determine his play style, but I would say that Jorginho's trainers have decided he's the optimum weight for the position that he plays.
Matic on the other hand is actually a bit of a beast btw.
I know, but to be a top level midfielder, I guess you need that extra muscles to be physically imposing, doesn't have to be heavy, mind you. Jorginho is a weird one. He looks like lee britton at this rate.
This, so much. I chuckle every time I see that reaction, and always to 'regista'. It's become a proper trigger for 'real football blokes'.Funnily enough it seems to be the same type who'll tell you Serie A is a better league because the teams are more strategically switched-on. Probably on account of being allowed to use single words to describe things.
it makes me laugh every time
No I’m talking about what happens on the pitch. ‘Holding the fort until those ahead of him get back’ is a prerequisite of the position. Changing the shape or moving him positionally merely shifts the problem with his athleticism somewhere else. Physically, he falls into the prime Pirlo/ twilight Scholes bracket. They, along with others of their ilk, struggled defensively but still brought enough to the table to justify their selection in front of the back four. In periods of sustained possession, Pogba and Vidal would drive forward, as would Fletcher for example next to Scholes. Khedira would do the same playing alongside Xabi Alonso at Madrid. The situation with Jorginho at Chelsea is no different, except he is not bringing anything to the table on the ball. Infact, he is a liability. He is catered for, and he should be taken out the team.
Off the ball, both Pirlo and Scholes put themselves about as best they could, at the same time, they were rarely exposed because the whole team was shaped around them and offered protection most of the time - there's just no way you can say Jorginho is afforded any such 'luxury' because the midfield is ahead of him, by quite a distance, so much so, that it is not only damaging Jorginho; it is also making Kanté the premier runner in the league for the last two seasons straight, look like a clogger who is defensively suspect, and then you have the absolute non entities of Kovacic or Barkley who offer nothing going backward. Allied to the fact the backline cannot break rank, lest it exposes itself, Jorginho is by himself for extended periods of time, which he never should be.
That's a massive failing on Sarri's part because he is not catering to the one player in the team who is most in need of assistance (legs, strength and aggression) in the whole team. When your only purpose is to pass and make the team tick, you have to be given the tools to make that possible. Do you not wonder why it was working out initially and now is a complete shambles? As teams have looked at Chelsea's midfield, they've realised how many non-entities they have in relation to their positions and bypassed them to hone in on Jorginho. Nobody is scared of Kanté in advanced positions and nobody cares about Kovacic or Barkley. As outballs, they are all terrible options and as players who are supposed to support Jorginho, you only have Kanté, way too far up the pitch initially, who can do anything, by the time a press and turnover has happened, Kanté is barely even in his own half of the pitch. It's no surprise to see Jorginho absolutely floundering under those conditions - the midfield is a mess and he compounds the issue further.
You've veered off onto a tangent you weren't initially making a point about. What I will agree with is the last sentence, however, beings as Jorginho isn't good enough to build a side around.
Was he this bad at Napoli? Replace him with most midfielders in the league and you wouldn't really notice the difference so far. His passing percentages are completely pointless when he does little to nothing with it. It's not even like he is one of those players that keeps things ticking and gives the other midfielders the ability to go and do their thing, it just isn't working for him in this system in this league and a complete tactical overhaul needs to happen for him and Kante to thrive.
The hell is wrong with his left leg?Attackers tend to have leaner and slimmer thighs. Midfielders usually have that defined legs, see Scholes, Modric, Xavi, even Veratti. You can see how muscular their thighs are.
It doesn't have to be big, but muscular enough to do all the work in midfield. Jorginho is a weird one, so scrawny looking.
EDIT:
This is a similar pose with Jorginho i posed earlier. Look at Busquets, he is lanky but look at his legs muscles:
He got a lot more time to think and plan what he wanted to do with the ball in Italy. His problems here seem to stem from him not being able to manipulate the ball and pick his pass quickly enough. He looks like he's just been promoted from the youth teams.
The Italian Leon Britton.
Wonder how he'd have done at Man. City?
Can see Chelsea selling him back to club in Seria A when Sarri goes.
Can see Chelsea selling him back to club in Seria A when Sarri goes.
Sounded like some Chelsea fans booed him as he came onto the pitch last night.
Did they boo him or the decision to play him ?
Harsh on Britton.
What the feck is that penalty technique?
Okay something I never understood how seemingly weak players don't build themselves some muscles. How hard is it? If being outmuscled is a weakness in your game, it surely is a no brainer? Or is it going to take away from their technique/style? Someone as big as Jorginho would probably get stronger in no time.
Out-muscled by Juan Mata. Juan Mata !
Exactly. As a gym guy, I pointed out how weak his legs are. You need all the extra muscles on your legs to do ridiculous stuffs in 90 minutes. I mean, if you don't have upper body muscles it's fine, but come on, top footballers all have defined legs.
Strength is a lot to do with balance as well, he also doesn't seem to use his centre of gravity very effectively. I've always thought that part of a strength battle starts mentally, the most determined players always come across as the strongest, Sterling's hardly a body builder yet how often do you see him shrugged off the ball? I don't think Jorginho has that classic "warrior" mentality.